Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s

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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#81 » by MacGill » Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:07 pm

Heej wrote:1) One could just as easily say how good were the Bulls before PJ and Pip appeared to help MJ


Well that is different time lines, right. Rookie Pip first and then rookie nba HC PJ.

2) Makes a lot more sense than blaming LeBron for ADs development :rofl:. Also it seems few understand probabilities and percentages.


LOL, more like spoken like a true nba2K participant. It's always easy to sniff out the couch coaches who have no real life experience.

3) Your statement has nothing to do with LeBron vs Jordan's leadership styles. Stop losing the plot.


Sorry Dad. Now are you allowed to give me a time out or is it your parents fault for not supporting you enough when you were younger?

4)Aka the market having more participants now means the level of due diligence required to having a market-moving book has increased, and there are less blind spots now that funds can take advantage of. Another Blackrock will never rise in our lifetimes because Larry Fink came into power with the first and most dominant AI based super algo in Aladdin. Now everyone has proprietary algos and AI. It requires an intelligent brain to be able to properly contextualize the circumstances of different eras.


Well at least you're partly right here. It also means couch coaches can now watch a tiktok video and think that they can become an expert in trading leaving retail broke or holding the bag. The concept hasn't changed but just the ability to target more humans. And the fundementals in trading and of the companies you invest in haven't really changed at all over the decades. This is also why many of the 'intelligent brains' are left in the back offices only.

5) No s*** Sherlock. It's only nincompoop Jordan fans that think the NBA went backwards in development :rofl:. LeBron fans aren't ignorant enough to think someone better will never appear :lol:


Lol, this is cute. You haven't disappointed me yet. Well done!

6) The fact that the entirety of this rebuttal is crying about RAPM and making some strange nonsensical point about practicing. As if LeBron is known for skipping practice when it's a bit more well known Jordan was afforded opportunities to skip whenever he shot commercials.


No, no, let's not get this confused. You're far too intelligent to simply try to easily sweep this aside with your clever word play. And for the record, your writing style is far more MJ leadership style to me then LBJ's. It's actually having me check my spelling because of the standard and word tone you're keeping right now. So, we do know that it's important for LBJ to be liked and seen as a great teammate just like we've also seen him rattled, whinny, and defeated. Now, using your leadership style or LBJ's, which one do you think Larry Fink used to get to where he is right now? You simply want to undervalue 'MJ's' intangibles and leadership pricky contributions at a time where there were hardly any distractions. And that caused MJ to become the Blackrock of the nba.

Again, LBJ has a great case study right now with AD, so if you're answer is that it's not his job, okay, I can accept that. But we know what MJ did and what was the result of him doing so. There was nothing else to deflect to or try and bring in.

And what do all those names have in common? The best coach of their era and at least 1 superstar level player contracted for scraps allowing those teams to fill out their roster with championship quality roleplayers. But again, I wouldn't expect you to make this kind of a connection, because most basketball discourse nowadays is basically akin to low IQ gossip and not about the nuances of the game itself.


Crazy how a player with more money than any of the past players, with the most influence over where he went, and able to hand pick the best in game players, still is chasing that ghost. It sucks knowing that he's max out every star player that he ever played with. It's why the relationships have always lasted so long.
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#82 » by MrLurker » Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:35 pm

Squared2020 wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:
Just want to flag that I *think* this includes a bit more data than what we already knew about. If I total up the offensive possessions listed for Jordan in the individual years Squared has data for Jordan (1984-1985, 1987-1988, 1990-1991, 1992-1993, and 1995-1996), it comes out to fewer offensive possessions than are listed here. It’s not a huge difference (about 1400 more possessions), so I think you’re right that this is mostly a compilation of data we already had (albeit when compiled together, we know it is all scaled the same, so that’s very helpful). And it’s possible I’m missing something. But I just wanted to flag that it looks to me like that does include some extra data we’ve not seen before. It’s mostly just a good compilation showing what we already knew though—which is that Jordan is very dominant in Squared’s RAPM data and has clear GOAT-level signals there (with the caveat of course that Squared’s data is far from complete).



You're right, there's a little more data in there than the individual seasons. I don't release individual season data until there's enough of a signal to show anything.

The other guy (sorry I can't see your post while writing this) that was talking about patches of data, he's right, too. There's gonna be some changes as we add more and more data. I don't think he's going to like how it's going to end, because Jordan will stay put at #1. But other guys that are deserving so are going to make hard charges to the Top 10.

At the same time, we may never lose Kukoc, Ratliff, or Koncak from the Top 50. Because... damn them always being part of positive stints. It'll be fun to see.

At least Uwe Blab sank down the list.

I always caution taking these numbers as end-all / be-all. I'm just trying to toss out more data as I can before I run out of steam and pass away. For that reason, I don't want to wait another 10 years to release.

First and most importantly, I wish you fortune with whatever you are currently enduring. Please do not force yourself if it is a delicate subject - but it is greatly appreciated you are willing to contribute despite this ailment.


That said

I would appreciate if you could offer clarifying detail here - my impression was Erving was reasonably poised to present a challenge here - particularly considering his seeming advantage WAR-esque outputs and win percentage.

I do not think I am preferential one way or the other - I presently have Jordan 3rd and Erving 5th - but I am curious what data or rationale is leading to your conclusion.
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#83 » by Squared2020 » Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:19 am

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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#84 » by MrLurker » Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:34 am

Squared2020 wrote:
MrLurker wrote:First and most importantly, I wish you fortune with whatever you are currently enduring. Please do not force yourself if it is a delicate subject - but it is greatly appreciated you are willing to contribute despite this ailment.


That said

I would appreciate if you could offer clarifying detail here - my impression was Erving was reasonably poised to present a challenge here - particularly considering his seeming advantage WAR-esque outputs and win percentage.

I do not think I am preferential one way or the other - I presently have Jordan 3rd and Erving 5th - but I am curious what data or rationale is leading to your conclusion.



Thank you, I appreciate that. Also thanks for the critical and respectful response. Seeing some of the posts on here, I tend to just poke my head in and run away.

Erving is deep on the list. He definitely would make the move up, but from the 1985 through 1996 seasons, he will only have three seasons of contribution. In the 1985 season, the Philly sample is very favorable for all players. That said, Moses Malone was a dominant force (in the sample) that year. Even in games where Erving played well, Moses' stints performed better with Erving off the court. The secondary layer is that many of Philly's games are against the top teams in the league; so they get inflated to winning 68% of games against those teams. That makes Moses and Barkley pop out more than Erving.

In Barkley's case, he was a strong third option for clean-up duty (rebounding, scoring on second chance points, and being weak roation help) and then played as a solid first/second option when starters went to the bench. This effect tends to levitate quality role players (or non-marquee starters) to higher "rankings."

This might be one of those situations where a contribution-injected correction is applied. Something like RPM, SPM, etc. may be helpful. I agree with you, Erving should (will) definitely be higher; I just don't know if he will cross the Top 10 for 1985-1996. What makes Erving "pop" for WAR?

As an aside, here's what PIPM (Player Impact Plus-Minus) shows for career arcs for several famous players.

Image

I appreciate all this - particularly the chart - but I appear to have caused a great deal of confusion with an extrenuous letter.

I meant to say Ervin - without the G. My mistake. I have little insight on Erving from a numerical vantage - though I think there were convincing cases Moses shined brighter.

I imagine you are aware - but Johnson appears to be the WAR-style-analytic darling of this period. Jordan's effect on the other hand doesn't look as extreme as advertised over larger snippets.

As for the graph - I am not so familiar with PIPM.
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#85 » by Squared2020 » Sun Nov 26, 2023 1:10 am

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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#86 » by Djoker » Sun Nov 26, 2023 4:18 pm

Squared2020 wrote:
Oh I hate when that happens!

Magic is definitely an analytics darling across the board. It’ll be interesting to see how the data fully pans out. I’m assuming Jordan will stay number one; mainly because the guys Jordan plays with on his team’s mediocre season do not perform well on other teams.

But it will be interesting to see how this will pan out. Growing up as a Laker fan from LA, I’d be happy seeing Magic hop to first. I just think it won’t actually happen because Kyle Macy will never be Byron Scott, Brad Sellers will never be James Worthy, Bill Cartwright will never be Kareem, and Dave Corrine will never be Vlade Divac.


Your work is amazing! I feel like that can't be said enough.

So for this RAPM I saw W-L records for the sampled games that you posted.

Image

The Bulls are 175-76 in those games.

1984-85: 15-17
1987-88: 27-16
1990-91: 37-20
1992-93: 20-10
1995-96: 65-8

Total: 164-71

I was wondering where the remaining 11-5 sample comes from?

Also how difficult is it to finish the 1995-96 season? So close to having full data for the Bulls. :D
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#87 » by MrVorp » Sun Nov 26, 2023 5:05 pm

Squared2020 wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:
Just want to flag that I *think* this includes a bit more data than what we already knew about. If I total up the offensive possessions listed for Jordan in the individual years Squared has data for Jordan (1984-1985, 1987-1988, 1990-1991, 1992-1993, and 1995-1996), it comes out to fewer offensive possessions than are listed here. It’s not a huge difference (about 1400 more possessions), so I think you’re right that this is mostly a compilation of data we already had (albeit when compiled together, we know it is all scaled the same, so that’s very helpful). And it’s possible I’m missing something. But I just wanted to flag that it looks to me like that does include some extra data we’ve not seen before. It’s mostly just a good compilation showing what we already knew though—which is that Jordan is very dominant in Squared’s RAPM data and has clear GOAT-level signals there (with the caveat of course that Squared’s data is far from complete).



You're right, there's a little more data in there than the individual seasons. I don't release individual season data until there's enough of a signal to show anything.

The other guy (sorry I can't see your post while writing this) that was talking about patches of data, he's right, too. There's gonna be some changes as we add more and more data. I don't think he's going to like how it's going to end, because Jordan will stay put at #1. But other guys that are deserving so are going to make hard charges to the Top 10.

At the same time, we may never lose Kukoc, Ratliff, or Koncak from the Top 50. Because... damn them always being part of positive stints. It'll be fun to see.

At least Uwe Blab sank down the list.

I always caution taking these numbers as end-all / be-all. I'm just trying to toss out more data as I can before I run out of steam and pass away. For that reason, I don't want to wait another 10 years to release.


You're the GOAT.
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#88 » by Squared2020 » Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:27 pm

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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#89 » by NO-KG-AI » Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:52 pm

None of it is really shocking for anyone that was watching and not trying to overplay the Bulls to diminish Jordan. Dennis was still a valuable player but was past his prime, and flakey as ever. He was more dialed in come playoff time I'd say.

Scottie's value has been way overstated on offense for a while. He'd be prime to be the kind of guy to get blamed for needing the ball in his hands to thrive next to virtually every other star player aside from a handful, and got the luxury of playing with a guy who was both a better main creator, and was one of the best all time off the ball.

MrVorp wrote:Jordan + No Pippen: 100.6 DRTG
Pippen + No Jordan: 106.2 DRTG


Not shocking either IMO. Pippen took the more difficult assignment a lot of the times when they shared the floor, but Jordan was just such a menace as a disruptor, it almost doesn't matter. You want Jordan able to attack passing lanes and blocking shots and causing the whole offense to hesitate.
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#90 » by MrLurker » Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:20 am

Squared2020 wrote:
MrLurker wrote:I appreciate all this - particularly the chart - but I appear to have caused a great deal of confusion with an extrenuous letter.

I meant to say Ervin - without the G. My mistake. I have little insight on Erving from a numerical vantage - though I think there were convincing cases Moses shined brighter.

I imagine you are aware - but Johnson appears to be the WAR-style-analytic darling of this period. Jordan's effect on the other hand doesn't look as extreme as advertised over larger snippets.

As for the graph - I am not so familiar with PIPM.



Oh I hate when that happens!

Magic is definitely an analytics darling across the board. It’ll be interesting to see how the data fully pans out. I’m assuming Jordan will stay number one; mainly because the guys Jordan plays with on his team’s mediocre season do not perform well on other teams.

But it will be interesting to see how this will pan out. Growing up as a Laker fan from LA, I’d be happy seeing Magic hop to first. I just think it won’t actually happen because Kyle Macy will never be Byron Scott, Brad Sellers will never be James Worthy, Bill Cartwright will never be Kareem, and Dave Corrine will never be Vlade Divac.

Interesting.

My understanding is the raw effect is larger for Magic - I don't quite know how well that correlates with advantages in the smaller, more regulated bits.

A numerical split between the two would be intriguing nonetheless. I'm somewhat unsure what to do after Russell and James - Jordan, Johnson, Jabbar, and Duncan seem interchangeable. Jordan getting some numerical counterplay would be interesting to be sure.
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#91 » by MrLurker » Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:27 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:None of it is really shocking for anyone that was watching and not trying to overplay the Bulls to diminish Jordan. Dennis was still a valuable player but was past his prime, and flakey as ever. He was more dialed in come playoff time I'd say.

Scottie's value has been way overstated on offense for a while. He'd be prime to be the kind of guy to get blamed for needing the ball in his hands to thrive next to virtually every other star player aside from a handful, and got the luxury of playing with a guy who was both a better main creator, and was one of the best all time off the ball.

MrVorp wrote:Jordan + No Pippen: 100.6 DRTG
Pippen + No Jordan: 106.2 DRTG


Not shocking either IMO. Pippen took the more difficult assignment a lot of the times when they shared the floor, but Jordan was just such a menace as a disruptor, it almost doesn't matter. You want Jordan able to attack passing lanes and blocking shots and causing the whole offense to hesitate.

Not to offend, but this strikes me as a very poor interpretation of evidence.

I am not sure why the desire to disregard what transpired with an extended absence is this potent. If the Bulls were as hapless as you describe - then they should not have appeared so formidable when Jordan retired.
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#92 » by NO-KG-AI » Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:28 am

MrLurker wrote:
NO-KG-AI wrote:None of it is really shocking for anyone that was watching and not trying to overplay the Bulls to diminish Jordan. Dennis was still a valuable player but was past his prime, and flakey as ever. He was more dialed in come playoff time I'd say.

Scottie's value has been way overstated on offense for a while. He'd be prime to be the kind of guy to get blamed for needing the ball in his hands to thrive next to virtually every other star player aside from a handful, and got the luxury of playing with a guy who was both a better main creator, and was one of the best all time off the ball.

MrVorp wrote:Jordan + No Pippen: 100.6 DRTG
Pippen + No Jordan: 106.2 DRTG


Not shocking either IMO. Pippen took the more difficult assignment a lot of the times when they shared the floor, but Jordan was just such a menace as a disruptor, it almost doesn't matter. You want Jordan able to attack passing lanes and blocking shots and causing the whole offense to hesitate.

Not to offend, but this strikes me as a very poor interpretation of evidence.

I am not sure why the desire to disregard what transpired with an extended absence is this potent. If the Bulls were as hapless as you describe - then they should not have appeared so formidable when Jordan retired.


Nobody said they were hapless, but people pretend Rodman was a 3rd megastar on par with other #3’s on superteams, and also gloss over very real flaws Scottie Pippen had offensively and act like he’s some super perfect second option, as if he’d fit with other ball dominant players.

The 1994 team was a nice feather for Scottie and the Bulls teammates for sure. :dontknow:

I think people take the Bulls results as confirmation bias: They were more successful than anyone else, because they were more stacked than anyone else ever. And I just don’t feel it’s the case at all. I think they are definitely top talent, but their success is basically unparalleled before and after, even with teams finding way better ways to stack the deck, getting much more dominant second and 3rd and even 4th stars, etc.
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#93 » by Gregoire » Mon Nov 27, 2023 7:38 am

Jordan is career 7,5 player... Wow!
In comparison Lebron (best player from current generation) is only 5,5... Its very significant difference...
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#94 » by LA Bird » Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:15 am

Gregoire wrote:Jordan is career 7,5 player... Wow!
In comparison Lebron (best player from current generation) is only 5,5... Its very significant difference...

This is probably a waste of time knowing your recent post history but RAPM studies using different methodologies over different time periods can't be compared directly. Otherwise, one can just as easily use this even larger 26 year RAPM dataset from JE (link) and claim LeBron's score of +9.1 meant that he is far ahead of Jordan as the GOAT.

Also, Jordan's RAPM in the latest multiyear data from Squared2020 is +6.9 not +7.5.
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#95 » by Gregoire » Mon Nov 27, 2023 4:49 pm

LA Bird wrote:
Gregoire wrote:Jordan is career 7,5 player... Wow!
In comparison Lebron (best player from current generation) is only 5,5... Its very significant difference...

This is probably a waste of time knowing your recent post history but RAPM studies using different methodologies over different time periods can't be compared directly. Otherwise, one can just as easily use this even larger 26 year RAPM dataset from JE (link) and claim LeBron's score of +9.1 meant that he is far ahead of Jordan as the GOAT.

Also, Jordan's RAPM in the latest multiyear data from Squared2020 is +6.9 not +7.5.


And Lebron's career RAPM? 5,5 approximately, I suppose?
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#96 » by LA Bird » Mon Nov 27, 2023 5:20 pm

Gregoire wrote:
LA Bird wrote:
Gregoire wrote:Jordan is career 7,5 player... Wow!
In comparison Lebron (best player from current generation) is only 5,5... Its very significant difference...

This is probably a waste of time knowing your recent post history but RAPM studies using different methodologies over different time periods can't be compared directly. Otherwise, one can just as easily use this even larger 26 year RAPM dataset from JE (link) and claim LeBron's score of +9.1 meant that he is far ahead of Jordan as the GOAT.

Also, Jordan's RAPM in the latest multiyear data from Squared2020 is +6.9 not +7.5.


And Lebron's career RAPM? 5,5 approximately, I suppose?

You not only missed the point about comparing different RAPMs completely but you even missed the +9.1 RAPM figure for LeBron that's literally right there on line 3.

This is probably a waste of time knowing your recent post history...

Thank you for confirming my suspicion
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#97 » by Gregoire » Mon Nov 27, 2023 5:29 pm

LA Bird wrote:
Gregoire wrote:
LA Bird wrote:This is probably a waste of time knowing your recent post history but RAPM studies using different methodologies over different time periods can't be compared directly. Otherwise, one can just as easily use this even larger 26 year RAPM dataset from JE (link) and claim LeBron's score of +9.1 meant that he is far ahead of Jordan as the GOAT.

Also, Jordan's RAPM in the latest multiyear data from Squared2020 is +6.9 not +7.5.


And Lebron's career RAPM? 5,5 approximately, I suppose?

You not only missed the point about comparing different RAPMs completely but you even missed the +9.1 RAPM figure for LeBron that's literally right there on line 3.

This is probably a waste of time knowing your recent post history...

Thank you for confirming my suspicion



viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2301003

I dont see 9,1 here, only 5,5, sorry... even if you badly want it - 5,5 would not transform to 9,1... So, MJ is far ahead, I think you need to deal with it.
Heej wrote:
These no calls on LeBron are crazy. A lot of stars got foul calls to protect them.
falcolombardi wrote:
Come playoffs 18 lebron beats any version of jordan
AEnigma wrote:
Jordan is not as smart a help defender as Kidd
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#98 » by AEnigma » Mon Nov 27, 2023 5:34 pm

Gregoire wrote:
LA Bird wrote:
Gregoire wrote:And Lebron's career RAPM? 5,5 approximately, I suppose?

You not only missed the point about comparing different RAPMs completely but you even missed the +9.1 RAPM figure for LeBron that's literally right there on line 3.

This is probably a waste of time knowing your recent post history...

Thank you for confirming my suspicion


viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2301003

I dont see 9,1 here, only 5,5, sorry... even if you badly want it - 5,5 would not transform to 9,1... So, MJ is far ahead, I think you need to deal with it.

Hold on, let me try something:
LA Bird wrote:This is probably a waste of time knowing your recent post history but RAPM studies using different methodologies over different time periods can't be compared directly. Otherwise, one can just as easily use this even larger 26 year RAPM dataset from JE (link) and claim LeBron's score of +9.1 meant that he is far ahead of Jordan as the GOAT.

Sounds like someone needs another tune-up.
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#99 » by VanWest82 » Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:34 pm

MrLurker wrote:
NO-KG-AI wrote:None of it is really shocking for anyone that was watching and not trying to overplay the Bulls to diminish Jordan. Dennis was still a valuable player but was past his prime, and flakey as ever. He was more dialed in come playoff time I'd say.

Scottie's value has been way overstated on offense for a while. He'd be prime to be the kind of guy to get blamed for needing the ball in his hands to thrive next to virtually every other star player aside from a handful, and got the luxury of playing with a guy who was both a better main creator, and was one of the best all time off the ball.

MrVorp wrote:Jordan + No Pippen: 100.6 DRTG
Pippen + No Jordan: 106.2 DRTG


Not shocking either IMO. Pippen took the more difficult assignment a lot of the times when they shared the floor, but Jordan was just such a menace as a disruptor, it almost doesn't matter. You want Jordan able to attack passing lanes and blocking shots and causing the whole offense to hesitate.

Not to offend, but this strikes me as a very poor interpretation of evidence.

I am not sure why the desire to disregard what transpired with an extended absence is this potent. If the Bulls were as hapless as you describe - then they should not have appeared so formidable when Jordan retired.

It's no less poor of an interpretation than assuming Scottie, Horace, and BJ were the same players from 91-94 or that the other role players were the same which is essentially what you're doing every time you bring this up. Again, it's like me saying Kawhi wasn't really worth much because Raptors were a 60-win pace team the following year with zero acknowledgement that VanVleet, Siakam, OG, and Powell vastly improved year over year. Any discussion of year-to-year wowy without being contextualized with individual player analysis is misleading to the point of being worthless.

The Bulls were often hapless with Jordan on the team but not on the court. The Bulls were a very good team without Jordan in 94. Both things can be true.

Edit: and just in case you decide to bring up 84-87 Bulls again without any discussion about Dave Greenwood, Iceman, Orlando Woolridge, etc., just understand that Bulls fans from that era are going to wholesale dismiss you as someone who has no clue what they're talking about. Don't put yourself in that position.
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Re: Jordan and Pippen Plus/Minus Numbers in the 90s 

Post#100 » by ShotCreator » Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:35 pm

colts18 wrote:A 1985-1996 combined sample RAPM is released and of course MJ is #1 which proves my thoughts that ever RAPM sample will have MJ or LeBron as #1 because they were clear best players of their era.

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Way too small of a sample of possessions to say it's representing a decade.

Better than nothing I suppose. But players are too up and down year to year to see this as an accurate picture of anything.

Jordan was particularly consistent though, especially in the playoffs so his edge here is understandable both as far as impact evaluation and his tendencies.

Half this sample is gonna be picking up D-Rob and Bird's weak playoff runs. Not too representative.
Swinging for the fences.

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