PG: Good Win

[Chandan]

Pecking order doesn't have to mean more responsibilities, rather just more chances to score. I would happily take 2-4 FGA away from Dennis/Siakam and give them to OG for 3PA. I definitely don't want him trying to dribble into the paint and falling like bambi on ice any more than we already get lol.

You think OG is capable of putting up 8-10 three's a night? That is elite volume generally only arrived at by guys who can handle a handful of pull up 3's a game, and OG is not an elite shooter.

OG is 73rd in the NBA in FGA/game. That is more than adequate for a guy of his offensive stature.

If OG thinks he'd get more usage touches on other teams he's delusional. No serious franchise wants him to do anything on offense other than spot up 3s, cuts, and the occasional bully ball post up. He can't dribble or pass or shoot off the bounce. That's just the hard truth better players than OG have taken lesser roles honestly. Suffice to say OG is fantastic as a defender and his shooting has been awesome but he has very clear limitations and no real team wants more of a role for him.

i think some teams would be willing to let him eat up some of the offense in exchange for him bringing the elite defense he brings. His ceiling architype is closer to ron artest than bruce bowen/ Tony Allen

[KrazyP]

Eric Gordon and Duncan Robinson are both taking 7/g, are you seriously trying to say, that OG who primarily takes set 3pt shots, couldnt manage to bump that up by a couple, if we just ran some more plays for that?

Come on dude, you're just being contrarian at this point.

Come on dude, Eric Gordon and Duncan Robinson are different level of shooters compared to OG. Gordon is reguarly pulling up 5 feet behind the 3 point line, and Robinson has great off-ball ability.

OG is a catch and shoot guy.

There is nothing contrarian by just being factual bout OG's shooting ability. He can shoot the hell out of an open, catch and shoot 3. But that is about it.

He is not coming off screens and setting his feel and bombing away on people like Robinson. He is not bombing from 25-30 feet to space teams out like Gordon. He is not pulling up into 3's like Tatum or Lowry.

Comparing OG to shooters like Gordon and DRob is hilarious man. Are we talking about the same OG? Or did we replace him with Rip Hamilton? Because OG does not have the balance or dexterity to fly off dribble hand offs or work off stagger screens sets. His shooting is more akin to a stretch big than those guys.

Makes no sense at all. Guys averaging 8+ 3s a game like posters here are advocating for have deeper range, much better ball handling, footwork and off ball movement than OG.

This isnt even a knock against OG....he is a fantastic, impact player in his given role.....a role in which would be the same for him regardless of what team he plays for.

These game threads always turn into a chaotic mess of irrationality.

[ForeverTFC]

Nobody says he dislikes him. I'm sure all these guys are nice guys and probably get along to some degree. It's the play style. It has nothing to do with Scottie. It was the same with Dennis when he played with Tatum and Brown. His game is very ball dominant and it freezes others out unless they're the one in the action with him.

Yeah I don't think anyone on most teams dislikes their teammates, hell with as much vitriol I had towards the FVV/Scottie dynamic last year, I wouldn't even say there's an issue there.

It's just a really bad fit for players and their play style, Scottie is a team/pass first player, and Dennis/FVV are more shoot first, granted I gotta give kudos to FVV (based on stats alone, I haven't watched much rockets this year) for seemingly being much better getting the team involved this year. But I guess when your starting line up has a 44%, 37%, 36%, 36%, and 31% 3pt shooters, it's a bit easier to manage haha.

Dennis in a vacuum wasn't a bad pick up, same as Jak, they just don't really fit the playstyle of what is supposed to be the franchise/focal point of the team.

The complaint seems to be people don't want him to play next to an actual point guard aside from maybe a Lonzo Ball type.

Look, I'm there with you guys on the Scottie needs to show initiative train. He definitely does. He also needs to show more consistent effort. Part of the reason he takes blocks of minutes off is his size and build, though he needs to continue focusing on his conditioning - probably more than most - to negate this as much as he can.

But it's not black and white. The personnel on the floor will dictate Scottie's role. I go back to Dennis on the Celtics. Brown and Tatum are not shy in getting up shots and Marcus Smart is not shy of demanding the ball. Yet when Dennis shared the court with them, he would take over the offense. Why? It's Dennis' play style. He plays a certain way and rarely deviates from it - unless he's sharing the court with Lebron James. Scottie does like to defer and play in a more cohesive manner, and Dennis' approach brings the negative aspects of that trait out of him - he becomes passive.

So I agree with you that Scottie HAS to go out and get his and demand it. But we can also acknowledge sharing the floor with Dennis makes that harder.

[ItsDanger]

Poeltl/Siakam/OG/Scottie/Trent lineup has only played together for 5 minutes. That's been discouraging to see Darko is very much against using this lineup.

[Chandan]

and yet OG already averaged close to 6.5 3PA with virtually no plays ran for him. With a more concentrated effort like running plays for him to catch the ball in the corner, i dont see why it's not beneficial to the team to do so to bump up his attempts when he's shot is shown to be reliable. It also helps to keep our 2nd most important asset happy.

[PushDaRock]

Yeah I don't think anyone on most teams dislikes their teammates, hell with as much vitriol I had towards the FVV/Scottie dynamic last year, I wouldn't even say there's an issue there.

It's just a really bad fit for players and their play style, Scottie is a team/pass first player, and Dennis/FVV are more shoot first, granted I gotta give kudos to FVV (based on stats alone, I haven't watched much rockets this year) for seemingly being much better getting the team involved this year. But I guess when your starting line up has a 44%, 37%, 36%, 36%, and 31% 3pt shooters, it's a bit easier to manage haha.

Dennis in a vacuum wasn't a bad pick up, same as Jak, they just don't really fit the playstyle of what is supposed to be the franchise/focal point of the team.

The complaint seems to be people don't want him to play next to an actual point guard aside from maybe a Lonzo Ball type.

Look, I'm there with you guys on the Scottie needs to show initiative train. He definitely does. He also needs to show more consistent effort. Part of the reason he takes blocks of minutes off is his size and build, though he needs to continue focusing on his conditioning - probably more than most - to negate this as much as he can.

But it's not black and white. The personnel on the floor will dictate Scottie's role. I go back to Dennis on the Celtics. Brown and Tatum are not shy in getting up shots and Marcus Smart is not shy of demanding the ball. Yet when Dennis shared the court with them, he would take over the offense. Why? It's Dennis' play style. He plays a certain way and rarely deviates from it - unless he's sharing the court with Lebron James. Scottie does like to defer and play in a more cohesive manner, and Dennis' approach brings the negative aspects of that trait out of him - he becomes passive.

So I agree with you that Scottie HAS to go out and get his and demand it. But we can also acknowledge sharing the floor with Dennis makes that harder.

I just don't see the issue you all are. If Scottie is out there dominating and doing it on a consistent basis, they will all defer to him in time. He doesn't need to be handed anything and have everything catered for him. He's in year 3 and trending up, what is the rush?

[ItsDanger]

OG's usage is down to lowest since 19/20. If the reports were accurate that he wants to be involved in the offense more, than you have a risk that he's not pleased with being 4th or 5th option constantly. They don't run many plays for him that I can see.

[dTox]

Yeah I don't think anyone on most teams dislikes their teammates, hell with as much vitriol I had towards the FVV/Scottie dynamic last year, I wouldn't even say there's an issue there.

It's just a really bad fit for players and their play style, Scottie is a team/pass first player, and Dennis/FVV are more shoot first, granted I gotta give kudos to FVV (based on stats alone, I haven't watched much rockets this year) for seemingly being much better getting the team involved this year. But I guess when your starting line up has a 44%, 37%, 36%, 36%, and 31% 3pt shooters, it's a bit easier to manage haha.

Dennis in a vacuum wasn't a bad pick up, same as Jak, they just don't really fit the playstyle of what is supposed to be the franchise/focal point of the team.

The complaint seems to be people don't want him to play next to an actual point guard aside from maybe a Lonzo Ball type.

Look, I'm there with you guys on the Scottie needs to show initiative train. He definitely does. He also needs to show more consistent effort. Part of the reason he takes blocks of minutes off is his size and build, though he needs to continue focusing on his conditioning - probably more than most - to negate this as much as he can.

But it's not black and white. The personnel on the floor will dictate Scottie's role. I go back to Dennis on the Celtics. Brown and Tatum are not shy in getting up shots and Marcus Smart is not shy of demanding the ball. Yet when Dennis shared the court with them, he would take over the offense. Why? It's Dennis' play style. He plays a certain way and rarely deviates from it - unless he's sharing the court with Lebron James. Scottie does like to defer and play in a more cohesive manner, and Dennis' approach brings the negative aspects of that trait out of him - he becomes passive.

So I agree with you that Scottie HAS to go out and get his and demand it. But we can also acknowledge sharing the floor with Dennis makes that harder.

Bingo, and his strength is better suited as a 6th man for that same reason, think about all situations he's been in where he had some level of success, it was always off the bench: ATL, LA, OKC, and this team badly needs to pair him more often with our bench lineup, that desperately needs a scorer like him.

[Chandan]

The complaint seems to be people don't want him to play next to an actual point guard aside from maybe a Lonzo Ball type.

Look, I'm there with you guys on the Scottie needs to show initiative train. He definitely does. He also needs to show more consistent effort. Part of the reason he takes blocks of minutes off is his size and build, though he needs to continue focusing on his conditioning - probably more than most - to negate this as much as he can.

But it's not black and white. The personnel on the floor will dictate Scottie's role. I go back to Dennis on the Celtics. Brown and Tatum are not shy in getting up shots and Marcus Smart is not shy of demanding the ball. Yet when Dennis shared the court with them, he would take over the offense. Why? It's Dennis' play style. He plays a certain way and rarely deviates from it - unless he's sharing the court with Lebron James. Scottie does like to defer and play in a more cohesive manner, and Dennis' approach brings the negative aspects of that trait out of him - he becomes passive.

So I agree with you that Scottie HAS to go out and get his and demand it. But we can also acknowledge sharing the floor with Dennis makes that harder.

Bingo, and his strength is better suited as a 6th man for that same reason, think about all situations he's been in where he had some level of success, it was always off the bench: ATL, LA, OKC, and this team badly needs to pair him more often with our bench lineup, that desperately needs a scorer like him.

fat chance. Already talked about finally getting "his team" like 3 games into the season.

[Mikistan]

I am entirely consistent. OG shoots 27.3% on pull ups but that does not mean those are not open, guys going under screens etc. It just is showing that he kind of really sucks at anything that is not a 3 pointer that is wide open.

There is no evidence he is going to be able to get 2-3 more good quality 3 point attempts to take per game regardless of what we do. He is not very good at off-ball movement to get open, he is not gonna be able to create 3's for himself, etc. He is the product of other guys collapsing the defense and kicking it out.

Yes i agree, you are consistent in your bias

Bias?

Man I love OG. How is it bias by suggesting that maybe OG is not an elite shooter who can take on elite volume, and then following that up with some stats and analysis to back it up?

Do better man.

Man the absolute irony of you telling other people to "do better" when you use surface level stats and then make assumptions that don't match the stats you post...

but I'll play your game for fun.

If you isolate for only games where OG shoots 7 or more 3PA per game

2023-2024 - so far 23 for 54 -- 42.59%
2022-2022 - 69 for 175 - 39.4%

No one is saying OG should take more pull up 3s calling his own offense. The fact that you use pull-up % as a counter argument is a red herring, maybe you don't realize how irrelevant that argument is because you take a surface level approach to understanding the statistics you post.

97.4% of his 3pt makes are assisted this year, that is 38 out of 39 3PTM so far this season.
Last season, 95.8% of OG's 3pt makes were assisted, or 138 out of 144.

You you expect any additional shots he takes will be around 25% - because what, you assume every shot he takes above 6.3 attempts per game will be pull ups I guess?

Looks like the stats show increasing his attempts still has him performing above league average 3pt shooting

[ItsDanger]

Lebron often lets his teammates get into the game before getting his own offense. Jokic does the same often but depends on situation. I think its more important that Scottie's 2nd half surge is more consistent rather than demanding he produce every quarter for every game.

[wherescomegys]

OG's usage is down to lowest since 19/20. If the reports were accurate that he wants to be involved in the offense more, than you have a risk that he's not pleased with being 4th or 5th option constantly. They don't run many plays for him that I can see.

Which is kind of funny given his 3pt %. However IMO he's a standstill shooter, so bringing him off screens and pin downs is not necessarily the answer either. When he's not on balance, he's gonna miss, and likely short. Since he can't dribble or manoeuvre in tight spaces, can he do any damage with his back to the basket after creating a mismatch? Haven't seen much of it, so likely not in his bag. But it's a conundrum. How can you make him feel more featured without hurting the team with turnovers and off balance ****?

[phanman]

Knicks having Quickley off the bench is hilarious man.

Dude would be our 2nd best scorer lol. What a luxury to have.

Bruh I am not even greedy, they can keep their 6 man and I would still happily settle for Hart, Donte or **** even Fournier man. We still have such a glaring hole for backup guard depth that I am still shocked to see Austin Rivers unsigned. He could easily come in and play meaningful minutes for us or plenty of other teams. Shoot, the guy is still only 30yo.

Geez even in a win where Schroeder has 12 assists and 0 turnovers + the game winning layup that he gets criticized for being selfish. Some of you guys are unbelievable and find a way to complain about everything. Dennis has been a godsend this season and probably the best free agent signing of this current regime.

16.2pts, 6.9ast, 3.1ast, 0.9stl. 1.7tov on 55.5%TS (44/37/87) in 31.3mpg with 13.2FGA

4.05 ast/to ratio

His ability to attack defenses and get into the paint is so unappreciated.

[YogurtProducer]

Man the absolute irony of you telling other people to "do better" when you use surface level stats and then make assumptions that don't match the stats you post...

Surface level stats? I literally dove into his shooting splits on C+S vs Pull-ups as well as brought context into where he stands in the league in terms of his volume.

OG currently shoots 45% on open/wide-open shots and 13% on tightly contested shots (defender 2-4 feet away).

If you isolate for only games where OG shoots 7 or more 3PA per game

2023-2024 - so far 23 for 54 -- 42.59%
2022-2022 - 69 for 175 - 39.4%

You are going to call my stats surface level and then you are going to pull up a cherry picked stat in which you bring up games he shoots more which more than likely are games in which he is shooting better.

Not to mention, just because he does not average 7 3's a game does not mean he can never shoot 7 3's per game. I am going to guess if you go look at the shots he took in those games he took 7 3's you are going to see most of those 3's be:

A) assisted
B) not just assisted, but completely created by someone else

No one is saying OG should take more pull up 3s calling his own offense. The fact that you use pull-up % as a counter argument is a red herring, maybe you don't realize how irrelevant that argument is because you take a surface level approach to understanding the statistics you post.

97.4% of his 3pt makes are assisted this year, that is 38 out of 39 3PTM so far this season.
Last season, 95.8% of OG's 3pt makes were assisted, or 138 out of 144.

You you expect any additional shots he takes will be around 25% - because what, you assume every shot he takes above 6.3 attempts per game will be pull ups I guess?

Looks like the stats show increasing his attempts still has him performing above league average 3pt shooting

I am using his pull 3 stats because that is how you get from 6 3's a game up to 8-9 3's a game. There is a reason why very few people take that many 3's, and almost all the people who do are elite shooters with and without the basketball.

It is really easy to say "we need to run more plays for OG" but that is ignoring that OG is just not good at offball movement or having plays ran for him. Almost his entire offense is a result of defenses collapsing and kicking it out. WE already do that at a high rate for him (he is top 15 in the league in catch and shoot 3's).

If you want to get his 3 point volume up, it has to happen somehow. The only was is calling his # more for himself and putting the ball in his hands (where he shoots 27% on pull-ups) or he takes more tightly contested 3's (which he shoots 14% on).

[Madvillainy2004]

Yes i agree, you are consistent in your bias

Bias?

Man I love OG. How is it bias by suggesting that maybe OG is not an elite shooter who can take on elite volume, and then following that up with some stats and analysis to back it up?

Do better man.

Man the absolute irony of you telling other people to "do better" when you use surface level stats and then make assumptions that don't match the stats you post...

but I'll play your game for fun.

If you isolate for only games where OG shoots 7 or more 3PA per game

2023-2024 - so far 23 for 54 -- 42.59%
2022-2022 - 69 for 175 - 39.4%

No one is saying OG should take more pull up 3s calling his own offense. The fact that you use pull-up % as a counter argument is a red herring, maybe you don't realize how irrelevant that argument is because you take a surface level approach to understanding the statistics you post.

97.4% of his 3pt makes are assisted this year, that is 38 out of 39 3PTM so far this season.
Last season, 95.8% of OG's 3pt makes were assisted, or 138 out of 144.

You you expect any additional shots he takes will be around 25% - because what, you assume every shot he takes above 6.3 attempts per game will be pull ups I guess?

Looks like the stats show increasing his attempts still has him performing above league average 3pt shooting

Good teams won't let OG get off 9+ spot up 3s a game. Maybe if Siakam/Scottie are really cooking and they get doubles thrown at them but in general if a guy wants to consistently get off 9+ 3s a game he'll need to either be able to shoot off movement (JJ Reddick, Klay Thompson), have a super deep range (Eric Gordon, Lillard) , or be able to shoot off the dribble (Mitchell, Curry). OG can't do those things man. The Raptors would LOVE to see OG get off 10-12 spot up 3s a night if they could but he isn't that player.

[nikster]

Knicks having Quickley off the bench is hilarious man.

Dude would be our 2nd best scorer lol. What a luxury to have.

Bruh I am not even greedy, they can keep their 6 man and I would still happily settle for Hart, Donte or **** even Fournier man. We still have such a glaring hole for backup guard depth that I am still shocked to see Austin Rivers unsigned. He could easily come in and play meaningful minutes for us or plenty of other teams. Shoot, the guy is still only 30yo.

Geez even in a win where Schroeder has 12 assists and 0 turnovers + the game winning layup that he gets criticized for being selfish. Some of you guys are unbelievable and find a way to complain about everything. Dennis has been a godsend this season and probably the best free agent signing of this current regime.

16.2pts, 6.9ast, 3.1ast, 0.9stl. 1.7tov on 55.5%TS (44/37/87) in 31.3mpg with 13.2FGA

4.05 ast/to ratio

His ability to attack defenses and get into the paint is so unappreciated.

Isn't this how we treated fred all last season lol?

[PushDaRock]

The complaint seems to be people don't want him to play next to an actual point guard aside from maybe a Lonzo Ball type.

Look, I'm there with you guys on the Scottie needs to show initiative train. He definitely does. He also needs to show more consistent effort. Part of the reason he takes blocks of minutes off is his size and build, though he needs to continue focusing on his conditioning - probably more than most - to negate this as much as he can.

But it's not black and white. The personnel on the floor will dictate Scottie's role. I go back to Dennis on the Celtics. Brown and Tatum are not shy in getting up shots and Marcus Smart is not shy of demanding the ball. Yet when Dennis shared the court with them, he would take over the offense. Why? It's Dennis' play style. He plays a certain way and rarely deviates from it - unless he's sharing the court with Lebron James. Scottie does like to defer and play in a more cohesive manner, and Dennis' approach brings the negative aspects of that trait out of him - he becomes passive.

So I agree with you that Scottie HAS to go out and get his and demand it. But we can also acknowledge sharing the floor with Dennis makes that harder.

Bingo, and his strength is better suited as a 6th man for that same reason, think about all situations he's been in where he had some level of success, it was always off the bench: ATL, LA, OKC, and this team badly needs to pair him more often with our bench lineup, that desperately needs a scorer like him.

He was starter in his best years in ATL, has started almost every game for LAL and was still playing 30 mpg for OKC and that was a unique situation with SGA and Chris Paul as well, but he finished a lot of games anyways for them.

Heading into the season, my thought was that he would be the 6th man and envisioned it being similar to OKC. But, I also didn't expect Trent's game to fall off a cliff. I also was not thinking Flynn would be getting regular rotation minutes either. If Darko is insistent on playing Flynn regular minutes, unless you want him and Schroder playing together which I think is a hard no, then I'm not seeing the route for him to come off the bench. What you should really be complaining about is the awful play from Trent, McDaniels and Dick. If any of these guys were playing better and forcing their way into more minutes, the decision to have Schroder as a 6th man would make more sense.

[TheGeneral99]

A ton of parity in this league right now:

Miami is 10-8.
Dallas is 11-6 (superstars in Luka and Kyrie)
Suns are 11-7 (superstars in KD, Booker and all-star in Beal)
Sacramento is 10-7 (all-stars in Sabonis and Fox)
Lakers are 11-8 (superstars in Lebron and AD)
Clippers are 8-9 (superstars in Kawhi, George and Harden)
Warriors are 8-10 (superstar in Curry)
Cleveland is 10-8 (all-stars in Garland and Mitchell)

Very small gap between a lot of talented rosters with all-star and superstar level talent.

We've strangely beat Minny, Milwaukee, Dallas, and Phoenix while losing to Chicago, Portland, Washington, and Brooklyn.

[ill-Will03]

Knicks having Quickley off the bench is hilarious man.

Dude would be our 2nd best scorer lol. What a luxury to have.

Bruh I am not even greedy, they can keep their 6 man and I would still happily settle for Hart, Donte or **** even Fournier man. We still have such a glaring hole for backup guard depth that I am still shocked to see Austin Rivers unsigned. He could easily come in and play meaningful minutes for us or plenty of other teams. Shoot, the guy is still only 30yo.

Geez even in a win where Schroeder has 12 assists and 0 turnovers + the game winning layup that he gets criticized for being selfish. Some of you guys are unbelievable and find a way to complain about everything. Dennis has been a godsend this season and probably the best free agent signing of this current regime.

16.2pts, 6.9ast, 3.1ast, 0.9stl. 1.7tov on 55.5%TS (44/37/87) in 31.3mpg with 13.2FGA

4.05 ast/to ratio

His ability to attack defenses and get into the paint is so unappreciated.

Isn't this how we treated fred all last season lol?

Anyone who shoots the ball not named Scottie Barnes is an enemy in the eyes of some of these fans.

Also FVV gotta get some credit for unlocking Sengun, people on here would have had you convinced he only cares about his stats and needs to have 20+ shots a game because of his ego lol

[TheGeneral99]

Bruh I am not even greedy, they can keep their 6 man and I would still happily settle for Hart, Donte or **** even Fournier man. We still have such a glaring hole for backup guard depth that I am still shocked to see Austin Rivers unsigned. He could easily come in and play meaningful minutes for us or plenty of other teams. Shoot, the guy is still only 30yo.

Geez even in a win where Schroeder has 12 assists and 0 turnovers + the game winning layup that he gets criticized for being selfish. Some of you guys are unbelievable and find a way to complain about everything. Dennis has been a godsend this season and probably the best free agent signing of this current regime.

16.2pts, 6.9ast, 3.1ast, 0.9stl. 1.7tov on 55.5%TS (44/37/87) in 31.3mpg with 13.2FGA

4.05 ast/to ratio

His ability to attack defenses and get into the paint is so unappreciated.

Isn't this how we treated fred all last season lol?

Anyone who shoots the ball not named Scottie Barnes is an enemy in the eyes of some of these fans.

Also FVV gotta get some credit for unlocking Sengun, people on here would have had you convinced he only cares about his stats and needs to have 20+ shots a game because of his ego lol

Fred has been pretty good for the Rockets. His 3 point shooting is back on par, but his field goal percentage is still pretty bad. He's tied with Jokic in assists and is 4th in the league in that category, the best of his career. Regardless, he's an impact player that makes his team better despite many of his flaws. He's not worth 40m a year but he'll benefit every team he's on. Realistically speaking he should be valued at 25-30m a year.

Dennis at 12m a year is far better value than Fred at 43m a year.