PG Atlanta: Dame clips Hawks wings in 4th

[BigO]

I don't get the need to use superlatives when discussing Khris. He hasn't been phenomenal, unless you compare him to not being on the court for a few years.

But he has been pretty good on offense, as a facilitator and on court coach.

His defense, as noted, is worse than ever. He used to be a very good defender. but that hasn't been the case for a few years and so far this season he has been easy to blow by.

The word phenomenal has no meaning if you use it to describe a player who so far has been somewhat inefficient, good leader on the court and bad on defense. Hopefully, he will get better and reach a level where he is phenomenal, but he is far from that now.

[tedbrogen]

I don't get the need to use superlatives when discussing Khris. He hasn't been phenomenal, unless you compare him to not being on the court for a few years.

But he has been pretty good on offense, as a facilitator and on court coach.

His defense, as noted, is worse than ever. He used to be a very good defender. but that hasn't been the case for a few years and so far this season he has been easy to blow by.

The word phenomenal has no meaning if you use it to describe a player who so far has been somewhat inefficient, good leader on the court and bad on defense. Hopefully, he will get better and reach a level where he is phenomenal, but he is far from that now.

His impact on how well the team plays when he is on the court versus how they play when he is off the court according to objective statistics is phenomenal. No matter how people have subjectively think he has looked. Fair enough?

[jimmybones]

It seems so based on his quote and what I’m seeing defensively at the end of games. I’m not a scout or a coach and not in the huddle so take everything with a grain of salt, but I have been going back and rewatching the last five minutes of each game and specifically checking defensive coverages. I’m seeing they are simply focusing the energy on physical D, protecting the rim, and getting the boards. No more jumping passing lanes or picking up dribbles at half court and trying to pick their pocket. Very little jumping passing lanes.

What does the best version of AG’s defense even look like? Is it just an 80’s basketball movie montage of non-stop steals leading to uncontested off the backboard all oop layups in transition and the opposing coach looking flabbergasted?

Basically yeah, it would look like Michael J Fox in full Teen Wolf mode. Only problem is the Bucks have zero werewolves on their team.

buy some second round picks to add a few werewolves imo

[jimmybones]

Well, basically the players stop doing what AG has been asking and instead of overplaying for steals/jumping passing lanes they try their best to expend that usually wasted energy to instead stay in front of their man, challenge shots the best they can, and crash the D boards.

If they just stop overplaying for steals, jumping passing lanes, and focused on getting back and had no one crash, they likely wouldn’t find themselves in a dog fight late in the fourth every game.

Ok now that's just plain depressing. Can anyone confirm that's what's actually happening? Because if so, there needs to be another come to Jesus meeting for Griff by the players.

It seems so based on his quote and what I’m seeing defensively at the end of games. I’m not a scout or a coach and not in the huddle so take everything with a grain of salt, but I have been going back and rewatching the last five minutes of each game and specifically checking defensive coverages. I’m seeing they are simply focusing the energy on physical D, protecting the rim, and getting the boards. No more jumping passing lanes or picking up dribbles at half court and trying to pick their pocket. Very little jumping passing lanes.

Equally fascinated and terrified at this theory

[GoldenAntlers]

I don't get the need to use superlatives when discussing Khris. He hasn't been phenomenal, unless you compare him to not being on the court for a few years.

But he has been pretty good on offense, as a facilitator and on court coach.

His defense, as noted, is worse than ever. He used to be a very good defender. but that hasn't been the case for a few years and so far this season he has been easy to blow by.

The word phenomenal has no meaning if you use it to describe a player who so far has been somewhat inefficient, good leader on the court and bad on defense. Hopefully, he will get better and reach a level where he is phenomenal, but he is far from that now.

His impact on how well the team plays when he is on the court versus how they play when he is off the court according to objective statistics is phenomenal. No matter how people have subjectively think he has looked. Fair enough?

This.

[Hudson112]

I think Middleton is a complicated one for fans, but more simply put, he's still a great offensive weapon, we love him and what he did for us, especially in the playoffs/finals. But realistically he's getting older, slower, and injured a lot. So, it's only natural to ponder about a replacement with fresher legs, despite losing the history we've had with Middleton.

I for one love Middleton, but with the way this season has sort of gone, a fresh 3&D guy with lots of legs left could do amazing things for this team and be the spark we need to start dominating teams (my biggest concern as a longtime fan, of the NBA as well, is you can't simply just be squeaking out wins against bad teams this consistently, early or not, a sign of an actual contender is being able to put these bottom tier teams away, and early).

So, selfishly, I would like to see that happen to have a more immediate result. But, big but, as many have pointed out, Middleton's shot making game, translates really well to the playoffs/finals, which is a rarity nowadays, and a big reason we even won. So it's going to always feel conflicted and why it's such a split amongst fans.

[chonestown]

I think Middleton is a complicated one for fans, but more simply put, he's still a great offensive weapon, we love him and what he did for us, especially in the playoffs/finals. But realistically he's getting older, slower, and injured a lot. So, it's only natural to ponder about a replacement with fresher legs, despite losing the history we've had with Middleton.

I for one love Middleton, but with the way this season has sort of gone, a fresh 3&D guy with lots of legs left could do amazing things for this team and be the spark we need to start dominating teams (my biggest concern as a longtime fan, of the NBA as well, is you can't simply just be squeaking out wins against bad teams this consistently, early or not, a sign of an actual contender is being able to put these bottom tier teams away, and early).

So, selfishly, I would like to see that happen to have a more immediate result. But, big but, as many have pointed out, Middleton's shot making game, translates really well to the playoffs/finals, which is a rarity nowadays, and a big reason we even won. So it's going to always feel conflicted and why it's such a split amongst fans.

New poster just dropped!

<reggaeton airhorn>

my biggest concern as a longtime fan, of the NBA as well, is you can't simply just be squeaking out wins against bad teams this consistently, early or not, a sign of an actual contender is being able to put these bottom tier teams away, and early

That's the big crux, innit?

[BigO]

I don't get the need to use superlatives when discussing Khris. He hasn't been phenomenal, unless you compare him to not being on the court for a few years.

But he has been pretty good on offense, as a facilitator and on court coach.

His defense, as noted, is worse than ever. He used to be a very good defender. but that hasn't been the case for a few years and so far this season he has been easy to blow by.

The word phenomenal has no meaning if you use it to describe a player who so far has been somewhat inefficient, good leader on the court and bad on defense. Hopefully, he will get better and reach a level where he is phenomenal, but he is far from that now.

His impact on how well the team plays when he is on the court versus how they play when he is off the court according to objective statistics is phenomenal. No matter how people have subjectively think he has looked. Fair enough?

This.

So here is a breakdown of the Bucks players in several advanced metrics, including offensive rating, defensive rating, VORP and your selected on/off metric.

The only one where Khris is good is the on/off metric, where he is at the top, except for Thanasis (I rest my case). So you select the one and only metric to prove your point. And if this is truly the one decisive metric, then your conclusion should be that he should be on the court more than Lillard and Giannis?

The plus/minus is one of many metrics. Why you ignore his offensive and defensive metrics and the others is puzzling, as he isn't very good in any of them.

I like Khris, and his getting back close to form is essential to any championship ambitions, but any conclusion, good or bad, is still to be determined.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/2024.html#all_per_minute-playoffs_per_minute

[MiltownMadness]

He is on a minutes restriction, while being on a minutes and presumably at a lower capacity, the team performs its best when he is on the court. This is easy to see by simply watching as well. Yet here we are talking about the Khris like he is deteriorating Thanos style, I must be missing something. Given the situation, I'm not sure what Khris could be doing better besides hitting his 3s at a slightly better rate (shooters are naturally streaker and he has a 10 year 'great shooter' resume). Why act as if we aren't bringing him back slowly because November basketball, in a few months when he is playing 30 MPG and is the offensive maestro we need (because that's what he is already doing at a lower capacity), how will the goalpost change?

[Hudson112]

The problem is we already have Dame on the court, do we really need 2 offensive meastros? Only one ball, therefore a 3&D guy is arguably going to open up the team's ceiling more.
Granted I surely don't mind a Dame, Beasley, Middleton, Giannis, Lopez/Portis lineup, but where is the defense going to come from on the wing?

I think we're missing that and going to get scraped by Boston without it.

Dame and Middleton DO look better together than I expected, admittingly.

[emunney]

I think it has a lot to do specifically with Khris spending a big chunk of his court time on the floor with both Dame and Giannis, and specifically how well that trio has performed together. Khris has been very much the missing link between those two guys. Offense really hums, which means fewer transition chances, which in turn improves the defense, which creates more transition opportunities for the offense. Feedback loop.

When you focus on Dame and Giannis, which you have to do, Khris becomes the check-down, typically guarded by the 2nd best perimeter defender on the team one-on-one, which is almost always a fabulous match-up for us.

[MiltownMadness]

Yeah Dame and Khris isn't a diminishing returns situation, they complement each other. Khris is what gives you options

[Hudson112]

I think it has a lot to do specifically with Khris spending a big chunk of his court time on the floor with both Dame and Giannis, and specifically how well that trio has performed together. Khris has been very much the missing link between those two guys. Offense really hums, which means fewer transition chances, which in turn improves the defense, which creates more transition opportunities for the offense. Feedback loop.

When you focus on Dame and Giannis, which you have to do, Khris becomes the check-down, typically guarded by the 2nd best perimeter defender on the team one-on-one, which is almost always a fabulous match-up for us.

Are we not able to slide him to the 3 and pick up an elite 3&D role player? That lineup would be dynamite. Lopez is too slow to have the perimeter also slow.

I love Beasley right now but he's never going to be an elite defender.

That's why I want either him or Middleton coming off the bench and finding a defensive perimeter player to slide in next to them + Dame.

[Dick Tate]

Middleton appreciation day didn’t show up on my calendar but anyway, Go Khris!

[GoldenAntlers]

We would all love an elite 3&D player.

Middleton works wonders as the third banana as many have expected for a decade. Now, I don't have a ton of faith in his ability to stay on the court, I'll concede that. I don't expect us to be able to flip him for a better fitting piece.

Also, this is not a defensive team unless the offense is working.

[tedbrogen]

I think Middleton is a complicated one for fans, but more simply put, he's still a great offensive weapon, we love him and what he did for us, especially in the playoffs/finals. But realistically he's getting older, slower, and injured a lot. So, it's only natural to ponder about a replacement with fresher legs, despite losing the history we've had with Middleton.

I for one love Middleton, but with the way this season has sort of gone, a fresh 3&D guy with lots of legs left could do amazing things for this team and be the spark we need to start dominating teams (my biggest concern as a longtime fan, of the NBA as well, is you can't simply just be squeaking out wins against bad teams this consistently, early or not, a sign of an actual contender is being able to put these bottom tier teams away, and early).

So, selfishly, I would like to see that happen to have a more immediate result. But, big but, as many have pointed out, Middleton's shot making game, translates really well to the playoffs/finals, which is a rarity nowadays, and a big reason we even won. So it's going to always feel conflicted and why it's such a split amongst fans.

Yep. A fresh 3&D guy could probably provide almost as much positive impact to the team as say their highest net rating player this season, Khris Middleton…

[tedbrogen]

Do people honestly believe that if Midds or Pat or Portis were flipped for some defensive 3&D guy that AG would even properly use that player? Or would that player also be over playing for steals 30 feet from the basket and getting beat?

Outside of a dawg like 2021 Tucker who just takes over defensive coordinator, that is.

[Bucksmaniac]

I don't get the need to use superlatives when discussing Khris. He hasn't been phenomenal, unless you compare him to not being on the court for a few years.

But he has been pretty good on offense, as a facilitator and on court coach.

His defense, as noted, is worse than ever. He used to be a very good defender. but that hasn't been the case for a few years and so far this season he has been easy to blow by.

The word phenomenal has no meaning if you use it to describe a player who so far has been somewhat inefficient, good leader on the court and bad on defense. Hopefully, he will get better and reach a level where he is phenomenal, but he is far from that now.

Well put! I know I’m probably underrating him but part of it is compensating for the overrating that many others are doing. Both his last couple contracts there’s been a narrative of him giving us a bargain but that’s not the case. Last contract he was paid like a 2nd option but his play was more like a 3rd option sans his 50/40/80 season and possibly our playoff run. Now he’s being compensated like a 3rd option which he is on his best days. Brook, Beas, even Bobby at times have played as good of a 3rd option on a given night as he has.

[Badgerlander]

Lets go Pacers and Pels!!