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Official Trade Thread Part XLV

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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1661 » by payitforward » Sun Dec 3, 2023 3:07 am

The Consiglieri wrote:
payitforward wrote:Well... we can't count Deni on the one hand & regard ourselves as in year 1 of a rebuild on the other hand! :)

In fact, Tommy was rebuilding. After all, just 16 months after he took over, Beal, Bryant & Brown were the only players who remained from the team he'd inherited, & Brown was about to be traded.

Obviously, he was setting off in an entirely new direction. You don't want to call it "rebuilding," fine... but that's still what it was.

Tommy's only problem was that he convinced himself that he could get good again "on the fly," by way of trades -- & as we all know, you do have to give him credit for a bunch of extraordinary trade moves!

If he'd drafted well, we'd have the best young team in the league! Pick, say, 10 guys from this list: Brandon Clarke, Keldon Johnson, Cody Martin, Caleb Martin, Terance Mann, Tyrese Halliburton, Desmond Bane, Xavier Tillman, Kmart Jr., Sengun or Trey Murphy, Isaiah Jackson, Jeremiah Robinson-Earl, Herb Jones, Ayo Dusunmu, Charles Bassey, Aaron Wiggins, Jericho Sims, Tari Eason, & Jabari Walker....


So if he consistently managed to to avoid the busts, and drafted a bunch of solid complimentary players, and landed the guy everyone on this board would have picked except for possibly me (I was fine with Deni over Halliburton, clearly wrong in retrospect and I'd say at the time too, otoh, pretty much everyone had Deni ahead of Haliburton back then in basketball media, which was pretty much why I was fine w/either guy, just not someone else) we would be fine and he'd have a job? Well, #1 there's no way he's gonna manage to extract the handful of hits from those four or five classes and habitually always avoid the busts. It just strikes me as crazy to imagine so. To miss so consistently is pretty bad too, although he did manage to avoid some of the biggest busts, his players are players after all, but the key point is, even if you hit on a bunch of role players, and 1 sort of near star in Haliburton, that team isn't suddenly great.

I remain 1000% convinced that no matter what he did in the draft, if he didn't maximize the return on the few assets we had of huge value, like Beal in particular, all the complimentary players imaginable wasn't going to make a difference. The key flaw was always the foundational principle of his whole enterprise: that you could build a winner around Beal in the first place, and that keeping Beal made sense. It was ALWAYS ludicrous, and the way it was handled was the worst humanly possible, the only door open which guaranteed the least value return possible, and he picked THAT doorknob, of all the options available. That's why he's gone. The draft is just the whip cream and the cherry on top of the overall foundational flaw of teambuilding philosophy and asset management in general.

I liked the pick of Deni too, btw! :)
Halliburton is not a "sort of near star." I won't be surprised if he wins MVP one or more years of his career. He is incredibly good.

He did get top value for Wall, btw. But, of course, the biggest mistake was failing to trade Beal as soon as he got the job. No disagreement about that.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1662 » by Dark Faze » Mon Dec 4, 2023 7:09 pm

The pick that soured me the most was Sengun. In the rearview, Tommy probably had some idea that John was on the way out and may have some signal that Westbrook could be the swap. Maybe it didn't work out that way, but you can see a scenario where you avoid the PG position there.

The Sengun thing is like...you clearly are in desperate need of a home run. You've got Kispert looking like the definition of a fringe roleplaying jump shooter and then you've got Sengun who looks clearly like he's got incredible offensive potential with the greatest fear being he'd be played off the floor because of his defense. But that's definitely something you live with. I wonder if he also had in mind about getting Sabonis at the time. IDK.

I don't think you ever want to say you'd pass on Haliburton in hindsight, but I can imagine a scenario where Brad is still on this team if we had landed him, and with Tommy still at the reigns having us competing for the 6/7/8. TBH, I think this front office staff might be worth more than that scenario, but there's no telling if the two would be mutually exclusive.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1663 » by TGW » Mon Dec 4, 2023 8:34 pm

Sengun was also my pick. YODA and WizardsKev nailed it on that one. I also wanted Hail but I remember a rumor that said he wanted to go to the Kings.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1664 » by Kanyewest » Tue Dec 5, 2023 1:30 am

Yeah, I think Sengun was the best player available IIRC at that point even on DraftExpress/ESPN/Athletic when the Wizards were picking. Although looking at YODA, there wasn't much separating Sengun and Kispert - Sengun was #5 and Kispert was #7.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1665 » by doclinkin » Tue Dec 5, 2023 2:26 am

Dark Faze wrote:The pick that soured me the most was Sengun. In the rearview, Tommy probably had some idea that John was on the way out and may have some signal that Westbrook could be the swap. Maybe it didn't work out that way, but you can see a scenario where you avoid the PG position there.

The Sengun thing is like...you clearly are in desperate need of a home run. You've got Kispert looking like the definition of a fringe roleplaying jump shooter and then you've got Sengun who looks clearly like he's got incredible offensive potential with the greatest fear being he'd be played off the floor because of his defense. But that's definitely something you live with. I wonder if he also had in mind about getting Sabonis at the time. IDK.

I don't think you ever want to say you'd pass on Haliburton in hindsight, but I can imagine a scenario where Brad is still on this team if we had landed him, and with Tommy still at the reigns having us competing for the 6/7/8. TBH, I think this front office staff might be worth more than that scenario, but there's no telling if the two would be mutually exclusive.


Haliburton was the move because he could slot in perfectly next to Brad and even play well off ball if John returned in good health (unlikely). We had gone a year without Wall, where Ish Smith played the 2nd most minutes on the team. Anyone who had lived through the Arenas knee blow-out knew the pitfalls in our continued failure to provide an understudy at the position that is the 2nd most difficult to fill. (Lead ballhandler/floor captain -vs- dominant 2-way Big). Passing on him for Avdija --another overseas player with a built-in market-- seemed like a so-Tommy and so-Ted ($) maneuver. By the time the next draft rolled around picking up a WYSIWYG role player did not seem like a total waste of a 15th pick. I liked Sengun, wanted some players further down, but by 15 the odds are not as strong that you pick a solid player. No matter what PIF will try to tell you :clown:
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1666 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Wed Dec 6, 2023 12:11 am

The ticker says Celts are looking to add at the trade deadline. What could we squeeze out of them for Kuz and or Jones?

Just tried Jones for Pritchard, Svi and Kornet. Celts add in a first and we call it a deal?
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1667 » by nate33 » Wed Dec 6, 2023 1:31 pm

long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:The ticker says Celts are looking to add at the trade deadline. What could we squeeze out of them for Kuz and or Jones?

Just tried Jones for Pritchard, Svi and Kornet. Celts add in a first and we call it a deal?

That works for me. I was shocked to discover that Boston has most of their first round picks available for trade. They only owe their 2029 to San Antonio, and their 2028 is a swap with Phoenix that probably won't ever take place.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1668 » by nate33 » Wed Dec 6, 2023 2:32 pm

long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:The ticker says Celts are looking to add at the trade deadline. What could we squeeze out of them for Kuz and or Jones?

Just tried Jones for Pritchard, Svi and Kornet. Celts add in a first and we call it a deal?

Ultimately, I think the Celtic's biggest need is a quality 3/4.

They have only Tatum, Brown and Hauser there, but Brown has to play 10-15 minutes a night at SG, and it remains to be seen if Hauser is reliable playoff guy. And Horford is the only guy who can play 4 behind Tatum, but that only works when both he and Porzingis are healthy, which is a risky bet.

I don't know if we have the guy who fits what they need. Our best playoff-suited veteran role players are at guard (Tyus, Wright and Shamet). I think Kuzma is overreach for what they need. He costs too much and may be too high in usage. What they really need is a guy like Dorian Finney-Smith, or perhaps Royce O'Neal who will cost a bit less.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1669 » by pcbothwel » Wed Dec 6, 2023 5:02 pm

nate33 wrote:
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:The ticker says Celts are looking to add at the trade deadline. What could we squeeze out of them for Kuz and or Jones?

Just tried Jones for Pritchard, Svi and Kornet. Celts add in a first and we call it a deal?

Ultimately, I think the Celtic's biggest need is a quality 3/4.

They have only Tatum, Brown and Hauser there, but Brown has to play 10-15 minutes a night at SG, and it remains to be seen if Hauser is reliable playoff guy. And Horford is the only guy who can play 4 behind Tatum, but that only works when both he and Porzingis are healthy, which is a risky bet.

I don't know if we have the guy who fits what they need. Our best playoff-suited veteran role players are at guard (Tyus, Wright and Shamet). I think Kuzma is overreach for what they need. He costs too much and may be too high in usage. What they really need is a guy like Dorian Finney-Smith, or perhaps Royce O'Neal who will cost a bit less.


Agreed... we are a poor fit with Boston. Delon Wright is redundant with Jrue & White, Kuz is too high usage, Gallo = Hauser...etc.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1670 » by payitforward » Fri Dec 8, 2023 12:13 am

Worth mentioning that the Knicks did not manage to work out an extension with Immanuel Quickley, meaning he'll be a FA at the end of the season.

Definitely a guy to have on our radar.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1671 » by Benjammin » Fri Dec 8, 2023 3:02 am

https://www.si.com/nba/wizards/news/report-washington-wizards-are-interested-in-chicago-bulls-forward-patrick-williams

Supposedly some interest in Patrick Williams.

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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1672 » by 9 and 20 » Fri Dec 8, 2023 3:16 am

Benjammin wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/wizards/news/report-washington-wizards-are-interested-in-chicago-bulls-forward-patrick-williams

Supposedly some interest in Patrick Williams.

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Article also mentions Caruso and suggest a Muscala/Davis swap for Williams. I'd do that trade. They'd probably want too much for Caruso who's a pretty good player. I'm not sure what we'd do with him anyway other than maybe flip him to another team.

Williams, Kuz, Deni, Coulibaly, Kispert is a lot of forwards but I'd rather that have that problem than trying to develop Johnny Davis which seems impossible. Maybe they get Williams to sign a descending contract like Kuz and Deni.

Kuminga seems a similar player and we might match up better with the Dubs as trade partners.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1673 » by 9 and 20 » Fri Dec 8, 2023 3:18 am

payitforward wrote:Worth mentioning that the Knicks did not manage to work out an extension with Immanuel Quickley, meaning he'll be a FA at the end of the season.

Definitely a guy to have on our radar.


Maybe the Knicks want some of the Wiz vets to load up for a playoff run. I'm sure they'd want some draft picks too though.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1674 » by TGW » Fri Dec 8, 2023 6:06 am

Benjammin wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/wizards/news/report-washington-wizards-are-interested-in-chicago-bulls-forward-patrick-williams

Supposedly some interest in Patrick Williams.

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Unless Kuzma is going out, I don’t see the point. The Wizards need bigs and guards. Not another 3/4 hybrid.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1675 » by penbeast0 » Fri Dec 8, 2023 2:24 pm

TGW wrote:
Benjammin wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/wizards/news/report-washington-wizards-are-interested-in-chicago-bulls-forward-patrick-williams

Supposedly some interest in Patrick Williams.

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Unless Kuzma is going out, I don’t see the point. The Wizards need bigs and guards. Not another 3/4 hybrid.


Maybe we just play 4 or 5 of those guys together; Showtime Light.

PG Deni Avdija
SG Bilal Coulibaly
SF Kyle Kuzma
PF Patrick Williams
C Eugene Omoruyi
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1676 » by nate33 » Fri Dec 8, 2023 3:01 pm

TGW wrote:
Benjammin wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/wizards/news/report-washington-wizards-are-interested-in-chicago-bulls-forward-patrick-williams

Supposedly some interest in Patrick Williams.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


Unless Kuzma is going out, I don’t see the point. The Wizards need bigs and guards. Not another 3/4 hybrid.

I'd give up any of our expiring contract vets for him, obviously. But that's not what Chicago would be looking for.

The only other trade I can think of would be Jordan Poole for Williams plus Lonzo's contract (which will cost $21M next year for him not to play)
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1677 » by nate33 » Fri Dec 8, 2023 3:04 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
TGW wrote:
Benjammin wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/wizards/news/report-washington-wizards-are-interested-in-chicago-bulls-forward-patrick-williams

Supposedly some interest in Patrick Williams.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


Unless Kuzma is going out, I don’t see the point. The Wizards need bigs and guards. Not another 3/4 hybrid.


Maybe we just play 4 or 5 of those guys together; Showtime Light.

PG Deni Avdija
SG Bilal Coulibaly
SF Kyle Kuzma
PF Patrick Williams
C Eugene Omoruyi


That would actually be a really interesting lineup! You'd be leaning a lot on Deni and Kuz to do all the ball handling, though. Those other guys are strictly finishers who can't make decisions on the fly.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1678 » by Frichuela » Fri Dec 8, 2023 3:21 pm

nate33 wrote:
TGW wrote:
Benjammin wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/wizards/news/report-washington-wizards-are-interested-in-chicago-bulls-forward-patrick-williams

Supposedly some interest in Patrick Williams.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


Unless Kuzma is going out, I don’t see the point. The Wizards need bigs and guards. Not another 3/4 hybrid.

I'd give up any of our expiring contract vets for him, obviously. But that's not what Chicago would be looking for.

The only other trade I can think of would be Jordan Poole for Williams plus Lonzo's contract (which will cost $21M next year for him not to play)


This would be ideal, particularly if followed by a Kuz trade to say Indiana for one of their 2024 1sts. Indiana is primed now for playoff contention and they need a starting PF.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1679 » by nate33 » Fri Dec 8, 2023 4:33 pm

Frichuela wrote:
nate33 wrote:
TGW wrote:
Unless Kuzma is going out, I don’t see the point. The Wizards need bigs and guards. Not another 3/4 hybrid.

I'd give up any of our expiring contract vets for him, obviously. But that's not what Chicago would be looking for.

The only other trade I can think of would be Jordan Poole for Williams plus Lonzo's contract (which will cost $21M next year for him not to play)


This would be ideal, particularly if followed by a Kuz trade to say Indiana for one of their 2024 1sts. Indiana is primed now for playoff contention and they need a starting PF.

I'm not in any hurry to trade Kuzma. I'd need a very good return to move him now and I don't think one late 2024 1st is enough. I'd rather keep Kuzma and trade him for the same return (if not better) 1 or 2 years down the road.

I actually think retaining Kuzma would be even more vital in the absence of Poole because Kuzma would be the only remaining shot creator on the roster who could possibly bend a defense.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLV 

Post#1680 » by penbeast0 » Fri Dec 8, 2023 8:54 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
TGW wrote:
Benjammin wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/wizards/news/report-washington-wizards-are-interested-in-chicago-bulls-forward-patrick-williams

Supposedly some interest in Patrick Williams.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


Unless Kuzma is going out, I don’t see the point. The Wizards need bigs and guards. Not another 3/4 hybrid.


Maybe we just play 4 or 5 of those guys together; Showtime Light.

PG Deni Avdija
SG Bilal Coulibaly
SF Kyle Kuzma
PF Patrick Williams
C Eugene Omoruyi


I think the results would actually be pretty ugly as Avdija is no more an NBA point than Jeremy Sochan in SA, but when you are tanking anyway, why not experiment. I remember when Jimmy Butler had the lowest assist percentage among top wings in the league and then they decided to use him to run some point in Chicago and it worked and has kept on working ever since.
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