Around The NBA - Regular Season version (Harden traded...now what?)

[ScienceOfLosing]

On top of passing up on Haliburton. Complete malpractice.

I want my pain and suffering money!!!

[spree2kawhi]

Where is the evidence to support this?


We have drafted trash that hasn't blossomed when it left. Unless you're blaming the Knicks for ruining careers which is silly.

And there is proof that you're wrong in IQ.

I’m with Spree2Kawhi.

Fans think these draftees will end up the same no matter where they go, which is a logical fallacy and philosophical conundrum with no solution.

My “evidence” that nurture impacts player development as much if not more than nature is just common sense.

When SGA was drafted, the Knicks were in delusional “win now” mode despite having terrible talent. IMO management would NEVER have allowed a rookie to start at PG when Jared Jack, Pablo Prigioni, or even Elfrid Payton was available. Same goes for Haliburton IMO who probably would have been developed as a 6th man at best. Keep in mind the Knicks hired a coach who believes in grinding out wins with iso-ball. Haliburton would never get to 11 apg in an offense that’s intentionally designed to be at the bottom of the league in assists.

Anyway, I have no “evidence” that they would have been lesser players just as you have no “evidence” that they would have been the same.

Okay, but be real here, you and I both know that Frank and Knox weren't going to be sht if they were drafted here or over there.

And I never said they would be the same. But every player that has left here hasn't been sht. And to say we ruined them is silly at best. They don't go on to do sht. Kinda evidence that we drafted trash out of the gate.

Add its hard to take an argument seriously when you think we are such a horrible franchise that we would ruin an elite talent such as SGA or Hali. When he might actually be a more well rounded player with the Knicks - cause thibs would have encouraged him to actually play defense.

Knox is still oozing with talent as we speak. Frank was an incredible defender from the start. No one ever taught him not to wet his pants. That’s all and at some point it is too late.

[Guano]

This is a weird concern because... well... are we talking about the same Knicks franchise here? What has the pressure of winning a championship ever done for the James Dolan Knicks

Chanel is clutching pearls and getting posters to talk about Tottenham all because he hates fun.

It's time for some consequences.

Go ahead t0ugh guy

Unfortunately for this place they have not given me the power to make this place perfect.

[spree2kawhi]

I think this probably needs to be said more often: you cannot tell me you watched Kentucky before the 2018 draft and tell me with a straight face you knew SGA was going to turn out to be their most talented player. I watched Kentucky that year and I didn’t see SGA develop into this player.

[Guano]

I’m with Spree2Kawhi.

Fans think these draftees will end up the same no matter where they go, which is a logical fallacy and philosophical conundrum with no solution.

My “evidence” that nurture impacts player development as much if not more than nature is just common sense.

When SGA was drafted, the Knicks were in delusional “win now” mode despite having terrible talent. IMO management would NEVER have allowed a rookie to start at PG when Jared Jack, Pablo Prigioni, or even Elfrid Payton was available. Same goes for Haliburton IMO who probably would have been developed as a 6th man at best. Keep in mind the Knicks hired a coach who believes in grinding out wins with iso-ball. Haliburton would never get to 11 apg in an offense that’s intentionally designed to be at the bottom of the league in assists.

Anyway, I have no “evidence” that they would have been lesser players just as you have no “evidence” that they would have been the same.

Okay, but be real here, you and I both know that Frank and Knox weren't going to be sht if they were drafted here or over there.

And I never said they would be the same. But every player that has left here hasn't been sht. And to say we ruined them is silly at best. They don't go on to do sht. Kinda evidence that we drafted trash out of the gate.

Add its hard to take an argument seriously when you think we are such a horrible franchise that we would ruin an elite talent such as SGA or Hali. When he might actually be a more well rounded player with the Knicks - cause thibs would have encouraged him to actually play defense.

Knox is still oozing with talent as we speak. Frank was an incredible defender from the start. No one ever taught him not to wet his pants. That’s all and at some point it is too late.

If only Frank went to SA with pop he would have been a star.

And lucky for Hali he didn't end up here or his career would have been ruined.

[spree2kawhi]

Okay, but be real here, you and I both know that Frank and Knox weren't going to be sht if they were drafted here or over there.

And I never said they would be the same. But every player that has left here hasn't been sht. And to say we ruined them is silly at best. They don't go on to do sht. Kinda evidence that we drafted trash out of the gate.

Add its hard to take an argument seriously when you think we are such a horrible franchise that we would ruin an elite talent such as SGA or Hali. When he might actually be a more well rounded player with the Knicks - cause thibs would have encouraged him to actually play defense.

Knox is still oozing with talent as we speak. Frank was an incredible defender from the start. No one ever taught him not to wet his pants. That’s all and at some point it is too late.

If only Frank went to SA with pop he would have been a star.

And lucky for Hali he didn't end up here or his career would have been ruined.

Well, this might be quite correct. Frank was never supposed to be a star but what you ridicule here is what the entire NBA landscape expected in mock drafts. Coming in, Kawhi Leonard couldn’t shoot to save his life. SGA was the 12th pick. 11 teams passed on him. Knox at 9 was a great talent coming out of college and he still looks like he could’ve been taught to be better than, say, Miles bridges. It is too late now of course.

[Chanel Bomber]

The problem is they wouldn’t have blossomed here the way they did elsewhere. It is still a shame of course.

Where is the evidence to support this?


We have drafted trash that hasn't blossomed when it left. Unless you're blaming the Knicks for ruining careers which is silly.

And there is proof that you're wrong in IQ.

I’m with Spree2Kawhi.

Fans think these draftees will end up the same no matter where they go, which is a logical fallacy and philosophical conundrum with no solution.

My “evidence” that nurture impacts player development as much if not more than nature is just common sense.

When SGA was drafted, the Knicks were in delusional “win now” mode despite having terrible talent. IMO management would NEVER have allowed a rookie to start at PG when Jared Jack, Pablo Prigioni, or even Elfrid Payton was available. Same goes for Haliburton IMO who probably would have been developed as a 6th man at best. Keep in mind the Knicks hired a coach who believes in grinding out wins with iso-ball. Haliburton would never get to 11 apg in an offense that’s intentionally designed to be at the bottom of the league in assists.

Anyway, I have no “evidence” that they would have been lesser players just as you have no “evidence” that they would have been the same.

You speak of fallacies but there are countless counterexamples to your theory.

Some players were developed on teams that had a win-now mandate and still turned into stars.

Some players were developed in an environment where "youth development" was prioritized over winning games and busted completely.

Mitch and IQ grew in the exact same environment as Knox and Obi and they developed into impactful NBA players while the other two busted in New York (Obi in Indiana TBD).

There's just an incredible amount of uncertainty when it comes to talent evalutation. But all the concerns about Frank (0 production in the ProA league - a massive red flag), Knox (known to have a low motor - another red flag), and RJ (selfish tendencies, tunnel vision and inefficient scoring re: Spencer Pearlman's scouting video) materialized in the NBA. Could RJ have been developed differently? That's always been my argument. But the way he was developed here is exactly what you appear to preach for i.e., automatic starter with limitless opportunities and a green light.

You just can't ignore talent evaluation and resort to a template explanation about a player's environment (which can be easily debunked anyway) just because you don't want to dip your toes in the scouting waters.

Thibs is more on the conservative side but the Knicks' offense is also largely a result of personel. This team doesn't have the skill set or the basketball IQ to run a motion offense.

[Chanel Bomber]

The NBA draft is an inexact science.

The way these players pan out is largely independent from the teams that draft them.

Miami drafted Bam #14 only two years after drafting Justice Winslow at #10. Same franchise, same environment, same coach, same organizational mandate.

One developed into a top 3 center in the NBA and a top 20 player in the league, while the other is already out of the league after 8 seasons.

Frank barely had NBA talent. Players who average 5 points in a league like the ProA - especially without the upside of elite athleticism - bust 95% of the time. If you were hopeful about Frank, maybe it's time to finally admit that you were completely misguided as opposed to living in this fantasy world where you weren't wrong per se but the circumstances were to blame.

[Chanel Bomber]

The biggest issue with the nba is falling regular season ratings and securing a new, more expensive tv deal. Even last years finals had a 6% drop in viewers from the previous year. Most of this can’t be explained away with cord cutting, since thats counted on Nielsen and illegal streams. It seems like the investment has kinda worked for now.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/12/04/has-the-nbas-in-season-tournament-paid-off-these-tv-ratings-suggest-yes-probably/amp/



We’re in the world where random NFL games out draw the NBA finals. Something needs to change or it literally will end the league.

Home court advantage, giving yourself the easiest match up you can in the first round, to keep selling tickets and ads for their games, keeping their players in shape and in rhythm for the playoffs, chances of making all nba, winning end of seasons awards, making the all star game. There’s a bunch of reasons to keep playing even if you secure a top 6 seed. All it would do is just keep you out of the play in tournament too. If you fell out, that advantage would go away.

Maybe you’re right and a team will throw the rest of the season and try to finish 10th but it would do massive damage to the league and I’d imagine the nba would step in at that point. There’s a reason Hinkie never got another job. Also I’d hope players and coaches care to much to do something like that.

But I think the underlying issues that have caused the decline in RS ratings haven't been addressed and while the IST has led to a spike in interest (in the short term at least) I think it's still a superficial solution. Perhaps I am mistaken, we'll know in a few years.

What would you change that would address the ratings decline?

Thanks for the open-ended question bro, let me reply to you tomorrow.

[3toheadmelo]

The NBA draft is an inexact science.

The way these players pan out is largely independent from the teams that draft them.

Miami drafted Bam #14 only two years after drafting Justice Winslow at #10. Same franchise, same environment, same coach, same organizational mandate.

One developed into a top 3 center in the NBA and a top 20 player in the league, while the other is already out of the league after 8 seasons.

Frank barely had NBA talent. Players who average 5 points in a league like the ProA - especially without the upside of elite athleticism - bust 95% of the time. If you were hopeful about Frank, maybe it's time to finally admit that you were completely misguided as opposed to living in this fantasy world where you weren't wrong per se but the circumstances were to blame.

Frank was gonna become one of the greats once he left the Knicks!!!!!!! There’s still time!!!

[sol537]

What are some of yall pre draft prediction hit or misses?

I had Haliburton being a bust cuz of his weird shot release.

I had Sengun tho being a star.

I wanted Mikal Bridges and Haliburton over the crap we ended up with.

I was worried about Mikal’s upside but was a victim of both prior Knicks failures and my naivety.

I did prefer Hali over Obi and not close.

I wanted us to draft all the point guards. We were without a legit point guard for like 2 decades... I wanted to take a crack at all the highest rated ones with our draft picks before we got Brunson. If we went with the approach to find a lead guard through the draft, we would have taken a crack and one of Spida or Haliburton. But the front office always tries to outsmart conventional wisdom and ends up looking dumb.

[Capn'O]

The NBA draft is an inexact science.

The way these players pan out is largely independent from the teams that draft them.

Miami drafted Bam #14 only two years after drafting Justice Winslow at #10. Same franchise, same environment, same coach, same organizational mandate.

One developed into a top 3 center in the NBA and a top 20 player in the league, while the other is already out of the league after 8 seasons.

Frank barely had NBA talent. Players who average 5 points in a league like the ProA - especially without the upside of elite athleticism - bust 95% of the time. If you were hopeful about Frank, maybe it's time to finally admit that you were completely misguided as opposed to living in this fantasy world where you weren't wrong per se but the circumstances were to blame.

I don't claim to be some sort of draft guru - good lord I've made some bad calls - but Winslow not panning as a star was a really obvious one. He was pretty much maxed out on effort in college and already had the body he was going to have. Still looked like he'd have a high-end role player sort of NBA career but injuries didn't help him out.

They're **** wizards over there though. Now they got Captain Jack Sparrow at like pick 18 and he looks great.

[Jalen Bluntson]

The NBA draft is an inexact science.

The way these players pan out is largely independent from the teams that draft them.

Miami drafted Bam #14 only two years after drafting Justice Winslow at #10. Same franchise, same environment, same coach, same organizational mandate.

One developed into a top 3 center in the NBA and a top 20 player in the league, while the other is already out of the league after 8 seasons.

Frank barely had NBA talent. Players who average 5 points in a league like the ProA - especially without the upside of elite athleticism - bust 95% of the time. If you were hopeful about Frank, maybe it's time to finally admit that you were completely misguided as opposed to living in this fantasy world where you weren't wrong per se but the circumstances were to blame.

I don't claim to be some sort of draft guru - good lord I've made some bad calls - but Winslow not panning as a star was a really obvious one. He was pretty much maxed out on effort in college and already had the body he was going to have. Still looked like he'd have a high-end role player sort of NBA career but injuries didn't help him out.

They're **** wizards over there though. Now they got Captain Jack Sparrow at like pick 18 and he looks great.

[spree2kawhi]

This is ten years of Knicks player development in a nutshell:

“It’s just hard when you go the whole quarter without touching the ball, the whole second quarter without touching the ball, and then you get one shot and you got to make it,” Grimes said on Tuesday. “So it’s tough going out there and just standing in the corner the whole game. Then you got to make the shot when you shoot the ball one or two times per game. It is what it is. We’ll see.” – via Kristian Winfield @ New York Daily News

Grimes also said he doesn’t feel like he has any margin for error — that if he misses a shot, he’s going to get pulled from a game. “It feels like if I don’t hit the shot, I’m coming out,” he said in the locker room on Tuesday. “So every shot I shoot probably weighs like 100 pounds if I don’t make it, and our defense, it ain’t cutting it, so I know I ain’t going back in.” – via Kristian Winfield @ New York Daily News

Don’t fool yourself, this is a very real thing. Players are not robots and rookies are still kids. Even Josh Hart made the same complaint last week. Our picks in question could have turned out decent. We sure made them look bad in favor of Burke, Burks, Payton, Mudiay, Courtney Lee and Lance Thomas. HOW MANY of those are still in the **** league? Our coaches have been ass.

[robillionaire]

I’d dump grimes for anything at this point, he’s been starting for a long time and had has a green light to suck for a long time, he was terrible in the playoffs, he’s terrible now, now he’s trying to pin his failures on the coach and hopefully this is all Thibs and Leon need to reddish him out of here in a trade. We could have had Donovan Mitchell. Thanks a lot Jerry West and Leon, you incompetent moron

[Gravy]

Okay, but be real here, you and I both know that Frank and Knox weren't going to be sht if they were drafted here or over there.

And I never said they would be the same. But every player that has left here hasn't been sht. And to say we ruined them is silly at best. They don't go on to do sht. Kinda evidence that we drafted trash out of the gate.

Add its hard to take an argument seriously when you think we are such a horrible franchise that we would ruin an elite talent such as SGA or Hali. When he might actually be a more well rounded player with the Knicks - cause thibs would have encouraged him to actually play defense.

Knox is still oozing with talent as we speak. Frank was an incredible defender from the start. No one ever taught him not to wet his pants. That’s all and at some point it is too late.

If only Frank went to SA with pop he would have been a star.

And lucky for Hali he didn't end up here or his career would have been ruined.

Didn't Pop draft that weird kid who was flashing women. How do the nature vs nurture folks explain that

[8516knicks]

"Knox is still oozing with talent as we speak."

[cgmw]

"Knox is still oozing with talent as we speak."

I lol’d

[Richard4444]

This is ten years of Knicks player development in a nutshell:

“It’s just hard when you go the whole quarter without touching the ball, the whole second quarter without touching the ball, and then you get one shot and you got to make it,” Grimes said on Tuesday. “So it’s tough going out there and just standing in the corner the whole game. Then you got to make the shot when you shoot the ball one or two times per game. It is what it is. We’ll see.” – via Kristian Winfield @ New York Daily News

Grimes also said he doesn’t feel like he has any margin for error — that if he misses a shot, he’s going to get pulled from a game. “It feels like if I don’t hit the shot, I’m coming out,” he said in the locker room on Tuesday. “So every shot I shoot probably weighs like 100 pounds if I don’t make it, and our defense, it ain’t cutting it, so I know I ain’t going back in.” – via Kristian Winfield @ New York Daily News

Don’t fool yourself, this is a very real thing. Players are not robots and rookies are still kids. Even Josh Hart made the same complaint last week. Our picks in question could have turned out decent. We sure made them look bad in favor of Burke, Burks, Payton, Mudiay, Courtney Lee and Lance Thomas. HOW MANY of those are still in the **** league? Our coaches have been ass.

That is the situation of 95% of the young players that are in teams that are trying to contend. The teams will lose precious games if they rely too much on newbies and let them make their mistakes.

[3toheadmelo]

"Knox is still oozing with talent as we speak."

That guy has no idea wtf he’s talking about most of the time