How high can Rudy Gobert climb all time?

[70sFan]

Gobert is just a better defender in the absolute. Mutembo however played in a time when Gobert's limitations were not as limiting so I can see a strictly era-relative case.

Why do you think so?

[eminence]

How many spots does meditating in a cave for 3 days to design Minnesota's defense boost Rudy in the all-time rankings?

[JimmyFromNz]

Sure defer to the Utah guards who also played their part, but lets not explain it away with a Donovan Mitchell tweaked ankle whilst putting up 35/5/5. We cant escape the fact an inferior cast of Clippers role players hit close to 80% of their shots with Gobert as the primary rim protector, his minutes were limited as such by Snyder, and out came similar hyperbole he was unplayable in that series.

The selected analytics you rely on all fell through the floor - for the most part Gobert sits between the 20-40 range. Thats important, if we value consistency and acknowledge a players playoff impact should be heavily weighted.

Every star can have bad games even bad series. But this reflected the fundamental issues with his game. As I've said, I'm a Rudy guy, top 10 sure we can entertain that. But the statement is he was a a top 5 player in the league so let's hold him to that standard.

Yeah, I am comfortable saying Rudy was Top 5 in 2021.

I actually don't know what limitations Rudy has. If you mean if his team struggled to stop an LAC team which was getting to the rim at will and then generating open 3's due to penetration, then of course, that is what happened. But why are we blaming Rudy Gobert for this?

Are we saying LeBron James in an inefficient scorer due to his scoring efficiency in the 2015 NBA Finals? Of course, had LeBron had shooters around him [similar to how if Gobert had defensive pieces around him], then his full potential would have been realized.

Of course, you are here siting a playoff season where Gobert had a Net On/Off of +21 in 6 games [and +33 in the first 5 games] and +17 Net On/Off in the first round series [5 games].

You are also talking about a team in the Los Angeles Clippers who had +650 Title Odds entering the season, posting a 117.6 ORtg in the regular season and slapped Dallas in the 1st round with a 122 Ortg. But yeah, bot Terrance Mann and Patrick Beverley had career nights from 3 in game 6 [Mann going 7/10 and Beverley 3/4] is clearly Gobert's problem

I think there are two possible point of view here. You are putting emphasis on roster, other people here on his limitations. Both approaches have their reasons depending on the focus (one relative, the other absolute). On one hand it's true that teams have always been highly dependent on Gobert's presence (what you're explaining), on the other hand his teams' ceiling has been capped by his limitations (he's not Hakeem Olajuwon). Don't you agree on this?
I think one should be able to address the limitations of one player even if he's always a positive on the floor. The same, for example, applies to Draymond Green (never a negative except when he goes nuts)

I agree, and suggest the focus isn't an either/or its clearly an and/and. At least my position is.

It might be easier for some to imply this is a witch hunt, and disingenuously state 'oh but for the teammates' - the same team mates who contributed with Rudy to a 52-20 team in a difficult conference year. The sole position for him being top 5 is selective impact metrics, in that case live and die by those then, including the playoffs.

Then we zoom out - back to basketball.

The limitations have been clearly stated already. Gobert struggled mightily in space (the rim numbers support those, but are being ignored), and was not able to produce on the other end of the court or take advantage of a 5 out line out. This was apparent, well documented, and analysed throughout the series and post playoffs.

The key point that is being overlooked, is that this isn't a vacuum analysis. Despite being an elite defensive anchor, and future hall of famer. Those limitations remain, and the results post 2021 speak for themselves (cue; the Minnesota revival comments 18 games in). Logically, we are being asked to accept he was a top 5 player in 2021 (who didn't register an MVP vote) , and simply overnight post that series it is no longer close to the case (unless someone wants to debate that). I'm sure we could agree the Wolves gave up top 5 value for him

In today's NBA we know, offense (scoring, playmaking, ball handling) are all inherently more valuable and impactful on a team than the traditional defensive centre - its the entire reason why the hyper focus was on this during the Clippers series.

What allows the statistical signal for defensive big men to leap is the combination of this that offsets others limitations - see Brook Lopez last season. There is a significant interdependency here that is not being acknowledged through those impact metrics. Lebron, Luka, Durant, Kawhi, Giannis, CP3, Jokic, Curry whomever their ceiling and baseline is so much higher regardless of the situation because they present those core skill sets alongside their own limitations which are far more easily offset. It's a point I want to labour because within this small community on the pc board there is a great and very helpful focus on impact metrics where we can learn a lot, but the reading between the lines isn't always so prevalent. Looking at the Draymond would be perfect example as you suggest.

[OhayoKD]

Sure defer to the Utah guards who also played their part, but lets not explain it away with a Donovan Mitchell tweaked ankle whilst putting up 35/5/5. We cant escape the fact an inferior cast of Clippers role players hit close to 80% of their shots with Gobert as the primary rim protector, his minutes were limited as such by Snyder, and out came similar hyperbole he was unplayable in that series.

The selected analytics you rely on all fell through the floor - for the most part Gobert sits between the 20-40 range. Thats important, if we value consistency and acknowledge a players playoff impact should be heavily weighted.

Every star can have bad games even bad series. But this reflected the fundamental issues with his game. As I've said, I'm a Rudy guy, top 10 sure we can entertain that. But the statement is he was a a top 5 player in the league so let's hold him to that standard.

Yeah, I am comfortable saying Rudy was Top 5 in 2021.

I actually don't know what limitations Rudy has. If you mean if his team struggled to stop an LAC team which was getting to the rim at will and then generating open 3's due to penetration, then of course, that is what happened. But why are we blaming Rudy Gobert for this?

Are we saying LeBron James in an inefficient scorer due to his scoring efficiency in the 2015 NBA Finals? Of course, had LeBron had shooters around him [similar to how if Gobert had defensive pieces around him], then his full potential would have been realized.

Of course, you are here siting a playoff season where Gobert had a Net On/Off of +21 in 6 games [and +33 in the first 5 games] and +17 Net On/Off in the first round series [5 games].

You are also talking about a team in the Los Angeles Clippers who had +650 Title Odds entering the season, posting a 117.6 ORtg in the regular season and slapped Dallas in the 1st round with a 122 Ortg. But yeah, bot Terrance Mann and Patrick Beverley had career nights from 3 in game 6 [Mann going 7/10 and Beverley 3/4] is clearly Gobert's problem

The difference here is Lebron's team swept a 60-win team and took a 67-win team to 6 without the two best teammates on what was a bad team without him.

IOW, Lebron not at full-potential helped produce a seemingly absurd playoff outcome regardless of how this singular aspect of "production" unfolded. Thus we end up having to explain how Cleveland ended up being so good anyway, and Lebron might have something to do with that.

Gobert's team lost to an underdog whose best player got hurt, which means we have a drop-off to explain, and Gobert is possibly part of that explanation.

And no, unless you are willing to acknowledge Gobert isn't a top 100 calibre player on the basis of his +1.6 career on/off(Over a truncated career relative to other stars), you should not be giving the tiny on/off samples anywhere near this amount of weight.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Gobert is just a better defender in the absolute. Mutembo however played in a time when Gobert's limitations were not as limiting so I can see a strictly era-relative case.

Mutumbo advocates can argue just as easily if it wasn't for the defensive 3 second rule, which exists nowhere but the NBA, his interior defense value makes him the better defender in the absolute.

most of his career was without such rule

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The limitations have been clearly stated already. Gobert struggled mightily in space (the rim numbers support those, but are being ignored)

where is this notion that Rudy struggled "mightly" in space coming from? I hope not from the fact that he could be attacked on close outs after he had to help on straight line penetrations because the guards offered no resistance.

[TroubleS0me]

Watch on YouTube

[JimmyFromNz]

The limitations have been clearly stated already. Gobert struggled mightily in space (the rim numbers support those, but are being ignored)

where is this notion that Rudy struggled "mightly" in space coming from? I hope not from the fact that he could be attacked on close outs after he had to help on straight line penetrations because the guards offered no resistance.

Both of those things can be true, as I've already addressed. Using it purely as a shield from critique is the issue.

[AdagioPace]

The limitations have been clearly stated already. Gobert struggled mightily in space (the rim numbers support those, but are being ignored)

where is this notion that Rudy struggled "mightly" in space coming from? I hope not from the fact that he could be attacked on close outs after he had to help on straight line penetrations because the guards offered no resistance.

Both of those things can be true, as I've already addressed. Using it purely as a shield from critique is the issue.

I think it's not surprising that people start to dissect one player's qualities (good and bad) and career once they begin talking about you, as you accumulate a fair amount of success. Once the "climb all-time" discussion arrives these things are to be expected. You don't get to enjoy the "defensive role player protection act" (using an american-sounding phrasing), even if often your game goes under the radar. When you reach certain impact people start to expect increasingly more from you. That's my impression at least

I would tend to give Gobert the benefit of the doubt when it comes to PS performances. The next couple Post Seasons might be a bit more balancing towards the bad reputation he has. He says he feels at his best but let's wait for confirmation.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The limitations have been clearly stated already. Gobert struggled mightily in space (the rim numbers support those, but are being ignored)

where is this notion that Rudy struggled "mightly" in space coming from? I hope not from the fact that he could be attacked on close outs after he had to help on straight line penetrations because the guards offered no resistance.

Both of those things can be true, as I've already addressed. Using it purely as a shield from critique is the issue.

they can be, in theory, but there's no evidence about one of them