Cavs Schmavved! Victory Cigar vs CLE 12/12

[exculpatory]

I don't know what to say, but if you think Tatum wasn't in the VC discussion then you assessed it differently than I did. He doesn't have to play like you wanted to have played very well. He's doing what is needed to win!

Don't know what we have until it's over, Tatum is a gem. Thanks Danny, Mom/Dad Tatum, and Tat!

You can roll your eyes if you want but yes, today I assessed it differently. And I said exactly why I did. You judge it how you want but him floating around the arc taking contested shots while holding the ball for 5-10 seconds is what I thought we were trying to move away from. It's why I thought we got KP and Jrue; so he wouldn't have to do that. He put up nice numbers but I didn't like that. I get JT PLENTY of props around here when he plays well. Nothing wrong with being honest and calling out when he plays not as well.

look at fts and how he got his points. he's not going to drive it in every poss no matter how much people want it. he's not going to be perfect. he's going to have less-than-stellar moments, he isn't a robot.

I thought this was one of his better games of the last 10. He was taking it to the hole, scoring/being fouled. He passed it when needed, which was good for others to get going. Don't remember his D but I mainly miss people watching Jrue and White, unless it's really noticeable. Had some poor moments but watch any other superstar and they do too. Still grabbing all the rebounds. We were missing wide-open 3s and Tat and Brown drove to the hole to get some scoring momentum, it worked.

more good than bad, I didn't see perfection, but he was good tonight.

edit: I agree, the pullups are not ideal, because he's not hitting them this season. Still, he did what was needed to win. He is going to take those shots, he's going to have to hit them in the playoffs.

Excellent post showing real insight!

PS I ran into a couple of review articles which are not in my lane or within my expertise, but may be of personal interest to you. PM me if u want the links.

[flintsky21]

JT, JB, KP and White all had a case for VC on this one but I'm gonna give it to Brown since he was really the only one that had it going and was aggressive at the start of the game when everybody else were shooting blanks from 3. Credits to Pritchard too for coming in in that 2nd quarter and really changed the tide, hitting the Celtics' first 3s and playing with energy. Credits to KP in the fourth for putting Cavs in early penalty. It's really nice to now have someone you can dump the ball to in the post and make things happen. We just never had that with Al, Rob, and Grant.

[bucknersrevenge]

I don't know what to say, but if you think Tatum wasn't in the VC discussion then you assessed it differently than I did. He doesn't have to play like you wanted to have played very well. He's doing what is needed to win!

Don't know what we have until it's over, Tatum is a gem. Thanks Danny, Mom/Dad Tatum, and Tat!

You can roll your eyes if you want but yes, today I assessed it differently. And I said exactly why I did. You judge it how you want but him floating around the arc taking contested shots while holding the ball for 5-10 seconds is what I thought we were trying to move away from. It's why I thought we got KP and Jrue; so he wouldn't have to do that. He put up nice numbers but I didn't like that. I get JT PLENTY of props around here when he plays well. Nothing wrong with being honest and calling out when he plays not as well.

look at fts and how he got his points. he's not going to drive it in every poss no matter how much people want it. he's not going to be perfect. he's going to have less-than-stellar moments, he isn't a robot.

I thought this was one of his better games of the last 10. He was taking it to the hole, scoring/being fouled. He passed it when needed, which was good for others to get going. Don't remember his D but I mainly miss people watching Jrue and White, unless it's really noticeable. Had some poor moments but watch any other superstar and they do too. Still grabbing all the rebounds. We were missing wide-open 3s and Tat and Brown drove to the hole to get some scoring momentum, it worked.

more good than bad, I didn't see perfection, but he was good tonight.

edit: I agree, the pullups are not ideal, because he's not hitting them this season. Still, he did what was needed to win. He is going to take those shots, he's going to have to hit them in the playoffs.

That this was one of his better games of late speaks to:

-how high the standard is that he has set for himself
-how uneven he has been over the last 10 games.

Yes, he's not a robot. And yes, we all know that. And it's completely okay to point out when he makes mistakes or is unfocused. We do it with every other player. He's no different. I thought he floated in and out of this game. Not engaged. I can tell when he's engaged. The numbers say the pullup 3 is his worst shot. He is excellent in C&S situations. We have great guards here. I'd like to see him trust them a little more. That's it.

[KillahGhostface]

Tatum led the team in potential and hockey assists last night, I don’t think trust is an issue.

He was aggressive for himself and others, I thought he had his best defensive game in weeks (Cavs shot 2-9 against him, but it was his help defense that was great), and he had no problem letting KP cook late. The turnovers were an illegal screen, a travel, losing a deflected ball out of bounds, and one that I can’t remember.

It felt like the kind of meh shooting game he’s had the past few years, where everything else was really good. Obviously I’d like less pull-up threes, as I’ve been saying, but he was also two rimmed out layups from having 29/10/5 on 19 shots lol.

He should absolutely have a really high bar, but other than the pull-up threes, I don’t see an issue last night. He had 17/8/3 at the half, then let KP do his thing in the second half, when Zinger had a 34% usage.

[BrianFitz]

Pritchard also made things happen with his hustle, and Kornet didn't suck as much as people always say he does.

They still should be able to do better than Kornet.

But they may not be able to this year. And until or if that happens, he's not really that bad.

[Hal14]

A win is a win but I really don't see much progress being made in weeks by the team. Just talent gaps. Jaylen and White smoke it though.

Don't try and downplay the Cavs talent. Go player for player and Tatum is the only one far and above. Mobley would be what I'd be basing it off if he were playing. Without him, they are still VERY deep. We aren't talent levels above them IMO. For some reason, it's iffy with them and DM this season, even though his numbers are great.

And even Tatum was outplayed by the Cavs best player (Mitchell) for most of the game..

No Mobley certainly hurts them, though..

[ConstableGeneva]

VC/CP:

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Did Gorman replace his "GOT IT!" with "Wow. Wow."?
We had four double-digit scorers in a quarter last night -- Brown (1Q), Tatum (2Q), White (2Q), Porzingis (3Q). Then defense clamped down last six minutes of the game to finish off the Cavs with a 14-7 run.

[sam_I_am]

I think JT and JB are our 2 most talented players and were our 2 best players last night. There was a lot of talent on the floor last night including KP, JH, Mitchell and Garland. I love KP but watching him ‘go get’ his offense really exposes why he is not a top 15 player in the NBA as some here have suggested. He is phenomenal and I love his addition as a big who can get a lot of buckets and make a difference as a rim protector but when he tries to force it, it gets real shaky. White has been my guy from day 1 but the homerism has got a little out of control. I love that he gives the game what it needs and that he knows how to feed off his more talented teammates. He also understands his limitations - he doesn’t try to dominate like Garland or Mitchell and that’s a good thing because he can’t do what they can.

There is a reason JT and JB take 20 shots a game and KP and White don’t. In JB’s case, his physical talent is such that the shots come so easy to him, even the bad ones - almost like a Westbrook. He often takes more difficult shots than he needs to. JB played the right way last night but the holes in his game ( handle, sloppy passing at times ) probably won’t ever completely go away. Minimizing his weaknesses and maximizing his phenomenal transition game will be a key to the team success.

At the end of the day, the team success will fundamentally come down to Tatum. Sure, last night was an amazing showcase of his talent considering it was an off game for him. Still, as a Celtic fan who has seen greats like Bird and KG, I didn't come away from that game unworried about him as a leader. In a tough fought game, he settled for the easy pull-up 3 over and over again and the same inconsistency in tone setting, focus, effort that has plagued recent playoff failures is still there. The season is young and lots of people said the similar things about Lebron at age 25 too so who knows. I guess I’d just like to see the demeanor I expect from a champion caliber best player.

[KillahGhostface]

I gotta say, while I am concerned about Jaylen’s shooting, I gotta give him credit for the way he’s played the last few weeks. It’s a lot easier to swallow meh efficiency if he’s scoring within the offense.

Also, this teams clutch numbers are hilarious lol.

TS by the top 6, and obviously it’s a short sample size.

Al 90.2
White 90.1
Zinger 75.9
Jaylen 68.6
Tatum 63.5 (gets to the line a TON in crunch time, 13-16 in 25 minutes)

If the guy taking most of your clutch shots is the lowest at 64%, good luck stopping that lmao. And I give credit to both Tatum AND Jaylen, not the Jay’s, as they are individual players. But they’ve both made a clear concerted effort to involve KP in clutch time.

This team is built to win in the playoffs.

[KillahGhostface]

At the end of the day, the team success will fundamentally come down to Tatum. Sure, last night was an amazing showcase of his talent considering it was an off game for him. Still, as a Celtic fan who has seen greats like Bird and KG, I didn't come away from that game unworried about him as a leader. In a tough fought game, he settled for the easy pull-up 3 over and over again and the same inconsistency in tone setting, focus, effort that has plagued recent playoff failures is still there. The season is young and lots of people said the similar things about Lebron at age 25 too so who knows. I guess I’d just like to see the demeanor I expect from a champion caliber best player.

This makes no sense. In a tough fought game, he had an efficient 17/8/3 in the first half, then went 2-4 on threes in the second half, just had a couple easy layups rim out.

The “demeanor/focus/effort” nonsense is exactly that. He’s the guy who touches the ball most in crunch time, and his TS is 64% in those situations, and the team has been awesome. That’s after having a 67% TS crunch time in last years playoffs.

Leadership style can vary. Last night wasn’t about his talent lol, as his jumper wasn’t falling and had bad rim luck. It was about doing all the other things. Rebounding, driving a bit more, moving the ball, setting back screens, defending, etc. That’s effort, not talent. That’s focusing on what’s best for the team.

[KillahGhostface]

Tatum’s second half shot chart. He had one dunk blocked, an amazing play by Allen, and had three layups rim out. Went 2-4 on threes (one of which was a garbage time three when up 7 with a minute to go), and hit a short middy that gave them the lead for good.

[sam_I_am]

At the end of the day, the team success will fundamentally come down to Tatum. Sure, last night was an amazing showcase of his talent considering it was an off game for him. Still, as a Celtic fan who has seen greats like Bird and KG, I didn't come away from that game unworried about him as a leader. In a tough fought game, he settled for the easy pull-up 3 over and over again and the same inconsistency in tone setting, focus, effort that has plagued recent playoff failures is still there. The season is young and lots of people said the similar things about Lebron at age 25 too so who knows. I guess I’d just like to see the demeanor I expect from a champion caliber best player.

This makes no sense. In a tough fought game, he went 2-4 on threes in the second half, and just had a couple easy layups rim out.

The “demeanor” nonsense is exactly that. He’s the guy who touches the ball most in crunch time, and his TS is 64% in those situations, and the team has been awesome. That’s after having a 67% TS crunch time in last years playoffs.

Leadership style can vary. Last night wasn’t about his talent lol, as his jumper wasn’t falling. It was about doing all the other things. Rebounding, moving the ball, setting back screens, defending, etc.

Maybe you are right. Maybe I’m being too harsh, but leadership is really the only question left with him and his natural personality is little bit more aloof and quiet and less cocky than standard. He has the size, skill, health and overall talent to be the elite and complete NBA superstar every team desires. There is a ton of talent around him too. I think of a lot of current and former NBA great players could win a title in their prime if they took Tatum’s place on this team. So does he have the character and willingness to put this team on his back and go get banner 18? Past 2 seasons he came out looking like he had become that guy and once again we are seeing the drift.

[KillahGhostface]

At the end of the day, the team success will fundamentally come down to Tatum. Sure, last night was an amazing showcase of his talent considering it was an off game for him. Still, as a Celtic fan who has seen greats like Bird and KG, I didn't come away from that game unworried about him as a leader. In a tough fought game, he settled for the easy pull-up 3 over and over again and the same inconsistency in tone setting, focus, effort that has plagued recent playoff failures is still there. The season is young and lots of people said the similar things about Lebron at age 25 too so who knows. I guess I’d just like to see the demeanor I expect from a champion caliber best player.

This makes no sense. In a tough fought game, he went 2-4 on threes in the second half, and just had a couple easy layups rim out.

The “demeanor” nonsense is exactly that. He’s the guy who touches the ball most in crunch time, and his TS is 64% in those situations, and the team has been awesome. That’s after having a 67% TS crunch time in last years playoffs.

Leadership style can vary. Last night wasn’t about his talent lol, as his jumper wasn’t falling. It was about doing all the other things. Rebounding, moving the ball, setting back screens, defending, etc.

Maybe you are right. Maybe I’m being too harsh, but leadership is really the only question left with him and his natural personality is little bit more aloof and quiet and less cocky than standard. He has the size, skill, health and overall talent to be the elite and complete NBA superstar every team desires. There is a ton of talent around him too. I think of a lot of current and former NBA great players could win a title in their prime if they took Tatum’s place on this team. So does he have the character and willingness to put this team on his back and go get banner 18?

I mean I hope so lol, I think so. I think right now, he’s just trying to help integrate the new guys into the system, because we don’t win a title otherwise. He’s always let Jaylen be aggressive early, so it’s nothing new.

He did his job last postseason, he dominated the Heat outside of the team wide disaster game 3. He looked ready to be that guy, then he sprained his ankle at the beginning of game 7. We’ve seen what he does in the biggest games, everyone knows he can take over when it’s needed.

What I’ve wanted to see from him early this season is going to KP some in crunch time, as he gives us an element we’ve just never had. You may doubt KP as a second option, but the results speak for themselves, he’s insanely efficient.

Because of last years playoffs ending sour, people forget that he averaged 27/11/5 on a 59% TS, and his on/off was twice as high as the next closest player. In the Heat series, we had a positive net rating with him on the court, and a -30.0 net when he sat.

I take nothing from this regular season other than being happy that Jaylen is playing more within the offense, KP/White being amazing, and Holiday adjusting offensively. I have zero concerns about Tatum come playoff time, personally. He’s had some speed bumps, led by the disaster finals, but there’s a reason teams don’t ever win titles when their best player is 24 or whatever.

[bucknersrevenge]

I think JT and JB are our 2 most talented players and were our 2 best players last night. There was a lot of talent on the floor last night including KP, JH, Mitchell, and Garland. I love KP but watching him ‘get’ his offense exposes why he is not a top 15 player in the NBA as some here have suggested. He is phenomenal and I love his addition as a big who can get a lot of buckets and make a difference as a rim protector but when he tries to force it, it gets really shaky. White has been my guy from day 1 but the homerism has got a little out of control. I love that he gives the game what it needs and that he knows how to feed off his more talented teammates. He also understands his limitations - he doesn’t try to dominate like Garland or Mitchell and that’s a good thing because he can’t do what they can.

There is a reason JT and JB take 20 shots a game and KP and White don’t. In JB’s case, his physical talent is such that the shots come so easy to him, even the bad ones - almost like a Westbrook. He often takes more difficult shots than he needs to. JB played the right way last night but the holes in his game ( handle, sloppy passing at times ) probably won’t ever completely go away. Minimizing his weaknesses and maximizing his phenomenal transition game will be key to the team's success.

At the end of the day, the team success will fundamentally come down to Tatum. Sure, last night was an amazing showcase of his talent considering it was an off game for him. Still, as a Celtic fan who has seen greats like Bird and KG, I didn't come away from that game unworried about him as a leader. In a tough fought game, he settled for the easy pull-up 3 over and over again and the same inconsistency in tone setting, focus, effort that has plagued recent playoff failures is still there. The season is young and lots of people said the similar things about Lebron at age 25 too so who knows. I guess I’d just like to see the demeanor I expect from a champion caliber best player.

FWIW, I think when Jaylen and to a lesser degree, Jayson force it, things become problematic there as well. Thus the nature of "forcing it". Forcing it for KP looks different for him than it will for Jaylen or Jayson because KP requires someone else to bring up the ball and get it to him. JB and/or JT can get a rebound, dribble the ball up and decide they're going to drive into traffic before they cross halfcourt because they wanna play hero ball. KP doesn't really get the ball in isos enough to force anything right now. He can miss a shot and then we don't look his way for the next 4 trips. What he has done is make exceptional use of his time when he's used as an offensive hub to make plays from. Needless to say, KP won't get a chance or the shots to show how productive he could be with them on this team because it's so stacked. Not the worst problem to have, I suppose.

[KillahGhostface]

I don’t care who people consider the second option, because we have multiple guys who can be that on any night.

Tatum’s value doesn’t always show up in the stat sheet, but this clip really sums it up. Defenses are terrified of him, and because of that, everyone else has it pretty easy. You just need to be aggressive, either with your own shot, or getting someone else a look. Tatum sets more off ball screens than like any wing in the league, last night included.

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[Celts17Pride]

JT, JB, KP and White all had a case for VC on this one.

Agree completely!

Gave my vote for VC to D White.

Very solid win for the Celtics, hopefully they can repeat this effort on Thursday.

[ConstableGeneva]

I don’t care who people consider the second option, because we have multiple guys who can be that on any night.

Tatum’s value doesn’t always show up in the stat sheet, but this clip really sums it up. Defenses are terrified of him, and because of that, everyone else has it pretty easy. You just need to be aggressive, either with your own shot, or getting someone else a look. Tatum sets more off ball screens than like any wing in the league, last night included.

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We've already seen what having a second option in the playoffs netted us. A capped ceiling. I don't wanna see the same my-turn-your-turn offense that failed against the tougher defenses in Heat/Dubs. I prefer what we're trying to achieve this season -- Tatum as the primary, offensive focal point (even if he's no Jokic, Doncic, or Haliburton) then multiple options around him who can all score at three levels, take advantage of mismatches/scrambling defense, and also become threats to make plays for others. Just keep building the habit of making the right reads over and over in the regular season and our playoff offense will be better for it. We'll become less predictable and more efficient. The tough individual shotmaking can always be a fallback when sets grind to a halt. It certainly helps that Tatum has made this jump as an isolation scorer (or maybe chart below includes passing).

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[ConstableGeneva]

Either Holiday practices witchcraft or he really studies his opponents. This was absurd.

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[KillahGhostface]

I don’t care who people consider the second option, because we have multiple guys who can be that on any night.

Tatum’s value doesn’t always show up in the stat sheet, but this clip really sums it up. Defenses are terrified of him, and because of that, everyone else has it pretty easy. You just need to be aggressive, either with your own shot, or getting someone else a look. Tatum sets more off ball screens than like any wing in the league, last night included.

We've already seen what having a second option in the playoffs netted us. A capped ceiling. I don't wanna see the same my-turn-your-turn offense that failed against the tougher defenses in Heat/Dubs. I prefer what we're trying to achieve this season -- Tatum as the primary, offensive focal point (even if he's no Jokic, Doncic, or Haliburton) then multiple options around him who can all score at three levels, take advantage of mismatches/scrambling defense, and also become threats to make plays for others. Just keep building the habit of making the right reads over and over in the regular season and our playoff offense will be better for it. We'll become less predictable and more efficient. The tough individual shotmaking can always be a fallback when sets grind to a halt. It certainly helps that Tatum has made this jump as an isolation scorer (or maybe chart below includes passing).

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His isolation PPP is still 1.10, same as Luka and way ahead of most guys. Including the pass just makes it even better, obviously lol.

People get it twisted at times, you don’t need to be a generational playmaker to be an effective hub. That’s one way, the other is being a guy who just breaks defenses, and forces other coaches to throw the kitchen sink at them. Which has been well established in Tatum’s case, although Iggy really made a point of it recently. But because he’s just a good passer and not elite, you need to surround him with quick decision makers, and for the most part, Brad has.

People look at his PnR PPP and assume it’s not a good play. But when you include passes, it’s one of the most efficient PnR’s in basketball.

To me, it seems as clear as it gets that he’s just trying to balance when to take over, and when to let other guys eat. Pull-up threes, yeah I know lol, but that’s really my only issue. His turnovers are from trying to force passes, not over dribbling. I expect that gets cleaned up as everyone gets more familiar with each other.

[KillahGhostface]

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