Game 24: Pacers at Bucks - 12/13/23 - 7:00 - BSWI

[Baddy Chuck]

So like, Giannis is good at free throws now?

[nagawicka]

What a pleasure to read a thoughtful, insightful post. Well done.

Like you I've been thinking about Monty Williams standing there with his arms folded as his Pistons team reels off 20 losses in a row. Player deficiencies will rip that "I'm a Genius" button off your lapel in a heartbeat.

Griffin hasn't yet gotten his button, but he's gotten plenty of challenges to deal with -- great expectations, two megastars, one of whom superficially should be good in the pick-and-roll but is instead a diver to the basket who makes that play easy to defend, and a supporting cast that is on-again, off-again. He's managed to compile a good record without earning style points.

He'll continue to attract hysterical, misplaced criticism here, but I'm good with watching his journey continue.

Not sure what misplaced criticism you're referring to.

Is the criticism that he is playing weak defending guards too far out on the court, thus allowing every guard they play to get into the paint, a misplaced criticism?

Or that he is playing Giannis too far out on the court and doubling players too far out on the court, a misplaced criticism?

I could go on, but my point is that there are, at least to me, obvious flaws that he refuses to react to.

Under Bud, the Bucks defense took a huge step back when Lopez was hurt that one year (he continued to play the drop even without Lopez). They were like 15th in the league. So I expected some regression exchanging Jrue for Lillard.

But being one of the worst defensive teams in the league with Giannis and Lopez on the roster is not acceptable, unless we can see incremental improvement.

This isn't about how you treat a coach and giving him a chance. It's about having an open window for a limited period and trying to maximize it. If the Bucks had the Bulls talent, I'd say give Griffin a year or two. We don't have that luxury.

I think the bigger "unacceptable" is that the Budenholzer Bucks was a very good defensive team that failed in the playoffs three times as the #1 seed. The conundrum is that we fans don't know exactly what Griffin is trying to teach, and nor do we know if the team is making enough progress and whether things will be better come playoffs. We only have short term results to measure progress, but we know that short term results do not adequately project playoff results. So we really don't know squat. We just know that we don't like the short term result and possibly get overly focused on short term details, in spite of a W-L record comparable to last season.

Maybe what Griffin is trying to teach the Bucks to do is complicated and takes a few months to instill. Maybe there are a lot of things to learn and fix, and maybe the "obvious unacceptables" are appropriately not the the things to focus on early in the RS. We fans seem to think that all a coach has to do is tell a team what results are best and the team will execute perfectly to achieve the desired result. If teaching and learning was so easy and automatic, every high school algebra teacher in the country would be fired when every student isn't getting 100% correct on every test within a few weeks.

If teaching NBA players how to be successful is so easy, why do NBA teams have so many assistant coaches? What are those coaches teaching if it is all so easy? Why doesn't the head coach just demand that each player fix the 5 or 10 or 20 things that is holding the team back, and then instant success and a championship will be guaranteed? You know, like a school principal who doesn't need classroom teachers, because all that is needed is to tell the students what they need to know. They can simply read the book.

Except that NBA success is eminently more complicated than a school subject where everything one needs to know is written down in a 350 page textbook. That Griffin needs to teach his players and team how to execute the new schemes against a defensive minded Knicks and an offensive minded Pacers belies the virtual certainty that early season results will be uneven. Serious NBA observers should understand that.

NBA coach should be held accountable. But it doesn't make sense to draw definitive conclusions based on short term results when the reason so many wanted Budenholzer replaced was that his great short term results did not carry over to the playoffs. If Griffin does not have a long term plan that would reasonably be expected to be successful, he should be replaced. But I don't think he should be replaced if his plan is complicated and will take a few months or so to teach and implement.

We fans don't know squat. We don't know all of what Griffin is trying to teach and implement. We don't know what individual and team understanding, recognition and execution needs to improve. We don't know how much progress is being made, or where things have stalled or regressed. We don't know which coach or coaches are working with which players to correct which issues, much less what progress has been made and how much progress needs to be made going forward. This is more complicated than telling students to read and learn textbook page 167. Ignoring the complexities involved make it easier to embrace misplaced anxiety over short term results. The reality is that we won't know how this ends up until it ends up, and the eventual result is not impacted by fan reaction or lack thereof, because we don't know squat.

x1000
That insight about the shortcomings of the Budenholzer Bucks in the first sentence alone oughta give the Griffin complainants pause. The rest is a tour de force : we just don't have any idea what the Bucks will have built three months from now. Bud's Bucks played ugly and dumb and inflexibly too--and the FO finally did something about it. This is that thing.

[Chad34]

Giannis is having an mvp season

[RiotPunch]

Giannis eating everyone's lunch.

[rilamann]

Damn it, we're playing defense and now Giannis probably won't get 50+ against the Pacers....lol.

[blazza18]

That catch and shoot three would have been a nice cherry on top of a dominate third quarter.

[MikeIsGood]

Holy **** Giannis.

[nagawicka]

People are asking for blind faith in Griffin, whereas Pop and Monty Williams (who nobody wanted to coach the Bucks, iirc, but beside the point) have established careers and an evidentiary argument for why they can be a HC of a contending team in the NBA. Of course, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

I think we all wish we had more to go on with Griffin. I suspect the FO feels the same way, along with ownership. And I think they are going to work affirmatively to get more to go on before they make a decision on him.

There's no way in hell, Pop or Monty has issues like Griff has getting this team to play solid basketball.

Those teams aren't loaded with players who've won & played at an elite level.

Literally Pop and Monty have issues getting their team to play to play winning basketball.

[Milbucks96]

Rick Carlisle looks about 45-50 but is in his 60’s.

[rilamann]

I'm so sick of missing plays because Bally's is showing a replay. Piss off.

They fall asleep more than the Bucks do in transition defense.

[blazza18]

Dame, dude. WTF?

[MickeyDavis]

Settle down Dame lol

[tsamo]

Dame, you are killing me here...
Again!

[PG Graveyard]

Dame just let them back in it.

[RiotPunch]

Rick Carlisle looks about 45-50 but is in his 60’s.

[Chad34]

Didn't watch Dame much until we got him. Is this normal Dame issues, or is he just working through it?

[Wooderson]

Dame needs to cut down the Harden foul baiting

[Profound23]

Is that Dame or Eric Bledsoe?

[rilamann]

Dame out there looking like he's day dreaming about being in Miami.

[Baddy Chuck]

What are we doing here.