RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Gary Payton)

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RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Gary Payton) 

Post#1 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Dec 13, 2023 5:35 pm

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:
AEnigma
Ambrose
ceilng raiser
ceoofkobefans
Clyde Frazier
Colbinii
cupcakesnake
Doctor MJ
Dooley
DQuinn1575
Dr Positivity
DraymondGold
Dutchball97
f4p
falcolombardi
Fundamentals21
Gibson22
HeartBreakKid
homecourtloss
iggymcfrack
LA Bird
JimmyFromNz
Joao Saraiva
lessthanjake
Lou Fan
Moonbeam
Narigo
OhayoKD
OldSchoolNoBull
penbeast0
Rishkar
rk2023
Samurai
ShaqAttac
Taj FTW
Tim Lehrbach
trelos6
trex_8063
ty 4191
WintaSoldier1
ZeppelinPage


Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Paul Arizin
Image

Joel Embiid
Image

George Gervin
Image

Gary Payton
Image

Nate Thurmond
Image

As requested, here's the current list so far along with the historical spreadsheet of previous projects:

Current List
Historical Spreadsheet
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#2 » by WintaSoldier1 » Wed Dec 13, 2023 5:53 pm

This list is so inherently political in scope, I’ll be changing my tactics back to advocating for specific people not based on pure “ability” as in who’s better but as in who needs to get in more as of right now.

Honestly I’m getting a bit salty the two players who were just nominated got in… And I don’t see the trend of players who flat out don’t deserve to be in before some of their other contemporaries ending soon, But I cannot sit around doing nothing and voting for who deserves it “aimlessly” anymore due.

This vote needs to be Gary Payton, And people need to discuss more here; I read the conversation about Thurmond was really good perspectives being thrown around. But it’s strange how we as a collective can have a 20+ Post about Thurmond but the person who gets nominated is… Jimmy Butler??? Who nearly nobody was talking about in scope since 4~ Selections ago? Same for Draymond, the same posters came and posted the advanced analytics rhetoric 10 nominations in a row until he got in.

I have failed to be more astute about my voting and nominations. I’m not mad nor do I have ill will to any one here or group, just kinda of confused the way we sit here and spend time doing one thing and then another happens, because clearly people have a set agenda and their mind made up.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#3 » by AEnigma » Wed Dec 13, 2023 5:55 pm

VOTE: Gary Payton
NOMINATE: Dave Cowens
AltNom: Ray Allen

AEnigma wrote:I continue to be confused by the lack of support for Cowens. We have seen titles for Barry and Gilmore give them a relatively secure standing, and I think it is difficult to argue against Cowens as the top player on the 1976 Celtics even if people are split on him versus Havlicek in 1974. His impact is clear, consistently showcasing twenty-win lift on a Celtics team that otherwise looked mediocre (when contending) to bad (when not) without Cowens. And he is very much a sort of precursor to Draymond, nominated several rounds ago, in how he was a somewhat undersized defensive anchor frequently taking a lead playmaking role to make use of his team’s strong off-ball wings.

Those who read my posts toward the end of the Peaks Project have already seen me post this article, but for those who have not, this is one of my favourite accounts of him:
Spoiler:
Cort Reynolds wrote: He may not have been named MVP of the NBA Finals in 1974 or 1976, but undersized Hall of Fame Boston center Dave Cowens was the key force in winning both clinching games of those memorable championship series for the Celtics.

In the 1970's no one played harder for Boston, or anyone else for that matter, with apologies to Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Lier and Dave DeBusschere, than the fiery 6-8.5 redhead.

In game seven of the epic 1974 NBA Finals, the Celtics faced the tall task of beating Milwaukee on the road. Buck center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was in his youthful prime and enjoyed nearly a six-inch height advantage - which was probably close to a foot when reach is included - over Cowens.



The Bucks had forced a seventh game by winning a double overtime classic in Boston just two days earlier, when Jabbar's long running baseline hook over Celtic backup center Hank Finkel gave Milwaukee a see-saw 102-101 victory.

Cowens had fouled out earlier in overtime, or the outcome may well have been different, with the Celtics likely celebrating title number 12 at home.

John Havlicek had traded baskets with the 7-2 Jabbar throughout the final extra session, scoring nine of his 36 points in the second OT, but Kareem got the last shot in.

Yet a hustling play by Cowens that came to epitomize his career happened late in that classic sixth contest. Dave switched off on a pick defensively to cover Robertson, then used his quick hands to poke the ball away from the Hall of Famer.

The speedy center then out-sprinted the 6-5 guard for the loose ball, which rolled into the backcourt. Cowens dove for the ball and slid with it near the sidelines while the loose leather bobbled in and out of his arms. Oscar trailed the play and never left his feet, almost in disbelief at the bigger man's reckless dive.

Cowens left a sweat streak about 10 feet long on the old Garden parquet, probably along with some skin. While the Bucks argued that he never had possession of the ball, the referees correctly ruled that the 24-second clock had nevertheless run out to give Boston the ball.

Not long after, Cowens fouled out with just 13 points on five of 19 shooting, and his absence contributed to the series-tying Buck win. Determined to redeem himself, the proud Celtic star came out firing in game seven.

Boston came up with a new strategy to aid Dave. The Boston braintrust decided to pressure the aging Robertson hard with defensive ace Don Chaney while he brought the ball upcourt.

And then once Milwaukee was into its halfcourt offense, coach Tom Heinsohn had Paul Silas, Havlicek and others also double down and help while Cowens fronted and battled Jabbar for position.

After he was told about the change in defensive strategy, Dave would relate years later in an interview that he felt like saying, "Yes! I am finally going to get some help on this guy."

After having the redhead go one-on-one for six games with the much bigger man who was the total focal point of their offense, Jabbar had averaged almost 34 points per game, so the Celtic brass felt it had to try something.

By not having to expend as much energy defending the 7-2 Jabbar alone, it seemed as if Cowens had been unchained and energized for the decisive contest.

On offense, the muscular Cowens used his superior speed and quickness to take the slower Jabbar out on the floor and drive by him, taking advantage of Kareem's relative lack of lateral quickness.

The high-leaping, aggressive Cowens won the opening jump over Jabbar and tapped it it to Havlicek, who fed a cutting Chaney perfectly for a layup that set an immediate, positive tone in the contest for the Celtics.

As time ran out in the first period, Dave bombed a 25-footer from the right side at the buzzer that went straight in to give Boston a 22-20 lead.

The Celtics lengthened the lead late in the half as their defense stymied Jabbar and Robertson. Dave triggered the vaunted Celtic fast break with a defensive rebound and airborne outlet pass that led to a 16-footer by Don Nelson.

Shortly afterward, Cowens nailed consecutive foul line jumpers that gave the visitors a 53-40 intermission edge. Their defensive strategy, cooked up between games six and seven by Celtic patriarch Red Auerbach, Heinsohn and the legendary Bob Cousy, was working almost to perfection.

Robertson, who had played for Cousy in Cincinnati before their falling out led to the Big O's trade to Milwaukee, was hounded into perhaps the worst playoff game of his career at a very inopportune time.

If nothing else, the all-court pressure put on by the quicker Celtics rushed the Bucks and took vital seconds off the shot clock, forcing hurried decisions and field goal tries. With veteran leader and playmaker Robertson flustered, the Buck offense floundered.

As a result, scoring machine Jabbar was amazingly held without a single point in the entire second stanza and for half of the third period. This was a major drought when one realizes that Kareem came into game seven averaging his number per outing in the 1974 playoffs (33).



At the other end, Boston closed the door with a clever bit of body control and quick reactions. Cowens missed a half hook in the lane that richocheted off Jabbar's hands to a nearly-prone Westphal, who was just getting up off the hardwood after being floored while setting a screen.

Paul then hung in the air as he looked to shoot a short jumper over the looming 7-2 Buck center. But at the last second, he double-clutched and instead tossed a beautifully improvised short alley-oop pass to Cowens past Jabbar. Dave caught the ball in the air on the right side of the lane and cleverly kissed it in off glass before Kareem could recover. That was the final nail in the Milwaukee coffin.



Havlicek, who enjoyed a great series, was named Finals MVP even though he tallied a modest 16 points on six of 20 shooting in the decisive contest.

His second fourth quarter three-point play on a foul line jumper as he was hit in the stomach capped a decisive 11-0 spurt that put the game well out of reach, 98-79.

But the game seven MVP was definitely Big Red. The final box score showed Cowens with game-high totals of 28 points and 14 rebounds, compared to 26 and 13 for Jabbar.

Yet the considerable numbers did not show his great intangible contribution, as well. Or how much energy the fiery redhead had supplied his team. Nor how his defense had helped Kareem wear down and fade. He sank just six of 11 free throws in the game and went scoreless for over a third of the game in the crucial middle section when Boston took command.

Or how Cowens had ignited the deadly Celtic transition game with his defensive rebounding and quick outlet bullets, often firing his passes in midair while coming down with the carom.



Due in large part to the scrambling defensive strategy of Boston, Jabbar only took 21 shots in the decisive seventh contest, six below his series average for attempts to that point.

He also converted only 10 field goals after making 14.5 baskets per contest over the first six games - well below his 54 percent shooting accuracy to that point in the title series.



The grueling style of play that the speedy 1970's Celtics employed, in concert with a short bench and going deep into the playoffs each year (and thus having shorter off-seasons), had started to take a toll on the club. Plus, team captain Havlicek and sixth man Don Nelson were each 36.

In 1976, a grizzled Boston squad fought its way to the Finals despite a foot injury to Havlicek. It was the 13th Celtic championship series appearance in 20 years, and the last before the Larry Bird era.



It was Cowens who took over and scored seven points in a clutch 9-4 Celtic spurt that clinched the crown.

Despite being plagued with five fouls, the redhead gambled and came up with the biggest play of the game. As Adams drove along the right side of the lane, Dave dangerously reached in and poked the ball away from the Rookie of the Year, lunging to tip the loose sphere away from Adams.

He then snatched up the loose ball and dribbled, or more accurately roared, 80 feet upcourt at top speed on a 2 on 1 fast break, a runaway red-headed center locomotive.

As he approached the basket, the Celtic center crossed over to the right side and gave a slight head fake to freeze defender Heard. Dave then laid in a twisting backhanded layup over his shoulder while being fouled. He cashed in the free throw to give Boston a 71-67 lead and a huge momentum swing.

After a Phoenix score, Dave sealed Adams outside the low block and took a perfectly timed top-side feed from Charlie Scott before converting a right-handed layin for a 73-69 advantage.

Cowens then forced a bad miss by Adams by hotly contesting his 15-footer. Adams later canned two foul shots to cut the lead back to two. Yet Havlicek swished a clutch 18-footer from the left wing to make it 75-71.

After a Westphal miss, Dave took an entry pass and spun quickly along the right baseline with his trademark move past Adams for a pretty layup. The pet move gave Boston a little breathing room with a 77-71 margin at the 3:29 mark.

White banked in a tough right side runner and added a free throw to stretch the lead to nine, and it was all over but the shouting as Boston ultimately held on to win, 87-80.

After the final buzzer sounded, a tired Cowens hugged retiring teammate Nelson as they strode off the court as champions for the last time. For Nellie, it was a satisfying fifth ring after being released by the Lakers over a decade earlier.

With White struggling and Hondo hurt, it was clearly the clutch late offensive burst from Cowens that capped banner number 13. His aggressive, all-out defense also led to a drought of over five minutes without a basket for the Suns down the stretch.

Even though Dave scored 21 points in the decisive win, paced the defense and led all players in rebounds during the series while averaging 20.5 ppg, teammate JoJo White (21.7 ppg) was named Finals MVP.

Yet in true Cowens fashion, Dave probably didn't care that much, as long as Boston won. He was simply about winning, an undersized center who won on great athleticism (strength, speed, quickness and jumping ability), high basketball intelligence, skill, and a burning desire as bright as his red mane.

"There is no player with greater desire than Dave Cowens," said CBS commentator and fiery Hall of Famer Rick Barry during the 1976 Finals.

A powerful leaper, Cowens frequently won jump balls against much taller centers like Jabbar and an older Chamberlain, and used great positioning to frustrate Kareem and occasionally block his shots as well by forcing him to turn back to his right shoulder, away from his patented hook.

Back then a center jump ball was held at the start of each quarter, and if that rule seems antiquated, consider that the original rules up through the 1930's required that there be a center jump after every basket. So each quarter jump ball could be a key extra possession gained.

As Havlicek, who played the first seven seasons of his career with the great Bill Russell and then his final eight with Cowens, the 1970-71 co-Rookie of the Year, once said - "no one ever did more for the Celtics than Dave Cowens."

In the post-game six locker room TV interviews with CBS, Havlicek reinforced this claim. "We were able to keep Dave on the floor (not foul out), and that made the difference," said Hondo.

Unfortunately, Dave's all-out style and annual deep playoff runs eventually contributed to his body breaking down by the time he reached his early 30's.



Heinsohn, who after the death of Red Auerbach assumed the mantel of Mr. Celtic after 50-plus years as star player, championship coach and team announcer, called his 1970's Boston teams "the quickest of all Celtic clubs."

As such he designed a revolutionary point center/forward type of up-tempo offense to take advantage of the extraordinary blend of skills, athleticism and desire of his speedy red-headed center and Havlicek, as well as the sharpshooting White.

Those Celtics did not have a true point guard. White, Chaney and Havlicek shared the ballhandling duties, while Cowens often directed the offense from the top of the key with his passing, driving and shooting ability.
Both these nominees would have immediately slotted to the top of my ballot several rounds ago. I have repeatedly expressed my befuddlement at the disregard for Cowens (especially when his lesser longevity is something this bloc has typically forgiven), but Ray Allen is also starting to feel like a strange exclusion when compared to other wings here. To me the only thing that would justify 15+ spots of separation between Ray and Reggie is that Reggie’s Pacers did not miss the playoffs, while Ray’s Bucks/Sonics often did. But that is also pretty obviously not Ray’s fault, so…

EDIT: In the interest of fostering some amount of discussion, I am voting for Payton here because I do think his total career value is tough to ignore at this point (even though I might prefer Ray Allen’s total career value), and while neither the totality of his accomplishments nor the quality of his prime stand out much in this field, I think ~five years as a top ten player plus a Finals appearance is sufficient to exceed my current baseline (the same baseline that has kept me from voting for several other longevity titans).
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#4 » by AEnigma » Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:03 pm

WintaSoldier1 wrote:people need to discuss more here; I read the conversation about Thurmond was really good perspectives being thrown around. But it’s strange how we as a collective can have a 20+ Post about Thurmond but the person who gets nominated is… Jimmy Butler??? Who nearly nobody was talking about in scope since 4~ Selections ago? Same for Draymond, the same posters came and posted the advanced analytics rhetoric 10 nominations in a row until he got in.

I have failed to be more astute about my voting and nominations. I’m not mad nor do I have ill will to any one here or group, just kinda of confused the way we sit here and spend time doing one thing and then another happens, because clearly people have a set agenda and their mind made up.

Do you think conversations should be fully replicated and rehashed every thread?

Yeah, we talked about Butler and Draymond. People generally made up their minds when they did. At the time, it was not enough for them to be inducted, but a few threads later, it was, and everyone still remembered the conversation.

Last thread we talked about Thurmond, but in the lens of why some people could abstractly envision voting for him and others could not. When a topic of conversation arises, people are not going to stay silent simply because, “Hm, sorry, that is not applicable to my current vote.”

Admittedly it makes for unsatisfying retroactive reading, but that is inherent to the dialogue. If someone had sufficient drive and time, then they could go through each thread and link the main discussion chains that occurred before a player was inducted, but I am not volunteering for that task. :lol:
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#5 » by trex_8063 » Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:21 pm

INDUCTION VOTE: Gary Payton (imo: overdue; comfortably ahead of anyone else actually on the ballot right now)
While Gary Payton wasn't a good shooter, he was elite among PG's at getting to the rim, and fairly elite at finishing there [for a PG]. Could work in the post, too, fwiw. Consequently he does have a positive TS Add in 10 of 17 seasons (and a very modest + TS Add for his career). He was positive in almost all of his high usage seasons, peaking at a reasonably solid +62.5 (five seasons >+30). He did this while being the principle playmaker for the team and having a solid/good turnover economy.

The Seattle offense really took off once Payton became the co-primary creator for the offense [on a "by committee" type team in '93], improved more with his increased usage in '94, and hit its peak after he began taking on BIG offensive load ['95 and after].
Below are the Sonics rORTG by year (and Payton's offensive on/off for teams '97 and later):

'93: +4.3
'94: +4.8
'95: +6.5
'96: +2.7
'97: +4.5 (+5.7 offensive on/off [best on team]; was +15.5 in playoffs)
'98: +6.6 (+6.3 offensive on/off [2nd on team (Detlef)]; was +22.4 in playoffs)
'99: +2.8 (+11.6 offensive on/off [best on team])
'00: +1.5 (+10.1 offensive on/off [best on team]
'01: +2.6 (-0.5 offensive on/off)
'02: +4.4 (+1.7 offensive on/off)

So despite criticisms he'll sustain about not being a good shooter, or not being a Nash-level playmaker, that is a solid decade where they were never worse than +1.5 [ranked 9th of 29], and averaged a +4.1 rORTG, while Gary Payton was at least co-anchor, if not THE anchor of the offense. And he was generally a solid positive within those excellent offenses (frequently the highest offensive on/off on the team).

Here are a few of his ORAPM's (and league rank):

'97 (NPI): +2.70 [17th]
'98: +3.65 [10th]
'99: +3.74 [11th]
'00: +5.45 [4th]

And while his defensive consistency is certainly overrated/stated by his accolades, he was, at his best, one of the best perimeter defenders in the game.
His best 5-years RAPM added are similar to that of recent inductees Paul Pierce and Dwight Howard (while playing more minutes than either of them within those five years).

And he was good/useful for an awfully long time: 17 seasons, rarely injured, playing big minutes (4x in the top-5 in minutes played); he's 15th all-time in minutes played (which has left him 30th all-time in WS, despite middling shooting efficiency). Is 27th since 1973 in VORP.


Alternate induction vote: Joel Embiid
Could see switching to Gervin, but more comfortable with Embiid's high peak than I am with Gervin's longevity case [vs Embiid], particularly given concerns on his defense through at least the latter half of his career.


NOTE:
For purposes of any potential run-off, I rank them Payton > (Embiid > Gervin) > Thurmond > Arizin. Could see flip-flopping Gervin and Embiid, though. Will make a decision there if needed.



NOMINATION: Pau Gasol
I think we're way overdue to not at least have him eligible.

I find it hard to believe that a guy who:
*had a mostly-durable 18-year career (ALL 18 years at least fair/useful/playable), peaking as an All-NBA level player;
**was probably at least a borderline or fringe All-Star level player (like at least top 25-30 in the league) for literally 15 seasons;
***was Robin on 2 title teams (3-4 contenders);
****is 32nd all-time in career rs WS (tied for 43rd all-time in playoffs), and 30th since 1973 in rs VORP (38th in playoffs).....

.....is having difficulty even making it on to the list of eligible candidates way out here at #53.

McHale's inducted at #48, iirc, though I have a hard time making the case [to myself] for McHale > Pau, given Pau's superior passing, turnover economy, rebounding, and meaningful longevity (all occurring in what is likely a marginally better league, too). Similar individual accolades and team accomplishments to McHale, as well.
Inching closer to astounded that I don't even have the option of voting for this guy yet.


Alternate nomination: Ray Allen (really, I'd like to go with Parish, but Ray Ray has more traction, and they're adjacent on my list, so....)
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#6 » by WintaSoldier1 » Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:05 pm

AEnigma wrote:
WintaSoldier1 wrote:people need to discuss more here; I read the conversation about Thurmond was really good perspectives being thrown around. But it’s strange how we as a collective can have a 20+ Post about Thurmond but the person who gets nominated is… Jimmy Butler??? Who nearly nobody was talking about in scope since 4~ Selections ago? Same for Draymond, the same posters came and posted the advanced analytics rhetoric 10 nominations in a row until he got in.

I have failed to be more astute about my voting and nominations. I’m not mad nor do I have ill will to any one here or group, just kinda of confused the way we sit here and spend time doing one thing and then another happens, because clearly people have a set agenda and their mind made up.

Do you think conversations should be fully replicated and rehashed every thread?

Yeah, we talked about Butler and Draymond. People generally made up their minds when they did. At the time, it was not enough for them to be inducted, but a few threads later, it was, and everyone still remembered the conversation.

Last thread we talked about Thurmond, but in the lens of why some people could abstractly envision voting for him and others could not. When a topic of conversation arises, people are not going to stay silent simply because, “Hm, sorry, that is not applicable to my current vote.”

Admittedly it makes for unsatisfying retroactive reading, but that is inherent to the dialogue. If someone had sufficient drive and time, then they could go through each thread and link the main discussion chains that occurred before a player was inducted, but I am not volunteering for that task. :lol:


It's less that I don't feel like people shouldn't be able to speak about topics that aren't completely relevant to the current post, It's more I want to discourage people from Copy-Pasta Voting, For multiple threads and then we suddenly just watch a nominee who has had no significant relevance in dialogue be nominated. Being insufferable I'd argue the reason why some players get nominations(this is a reference to ur plea for Pau & Cowens) over others is because of the copy-pasta culture that we've enthralled ourselves with.

People voting based on their own limited scope of knowledge(This isn't an attack to someone specific, It's about the culture) isn't going to produce a good list, we as a collective need to be challenged in order for us to produce a more refined version of the list from here-forth. Also, my last bit of insufferably I'd probably point to "Thinking Basketball" as a huge influence over this list( It's why Reggie, Nash, & Manu are so high... That's not the limitations of the influence either.... The entire top 30 is probably skewed in a direction that highlights thinking basketballs' influence over non-casual discussion).

Also in terms of nominee's I may be voting Pau Gasol in along with you. Will be ensuing the Iverson push in 5 or so spots, but it's doubtful it's worth my time here.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#7 » by WintaSoldier1 » Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:08 pm

VOTE: Gary Payton [ Earlier Analysis BELOW]

WintaSoldier1 wrote:GP is Cool

His defense is reactive, so he waits for the opponent to make a move and relies on his supreme quickness to cut them off and stay infront of them, which has a high degree of success. The most insane part of his defense is his twitch, dude’s reaction time when sliding( as in how long it takes to mirror the offensive players movement and cut them off) is elite, but when he’s jumping to contest he’s insane. It’s some crazy stuff, defenders are also very wary of his hands and it psychologically damages their offensive aggression.

Dude’s off ball defense is not good. He’s very reactionary as a defender and doesn’t have good sense of where he’s at on the floor. He can be easily manipulated by offensive players into low leverage spots as a defender and give up leeway. He’s just an over excited pest off the ball, often giving up good positioning. Screen Navigation is also terrible, but since he’s a Point of Attack Defender and Screens themselves weren’t a focal point of 90s offense these issues weren’t huge for GP. [ He can and will punish offenses for telegraphing a Pass and does have some Rim Protection capabilities as the help defender]

Offenses are extremely aware of where GP is on the floor, even as a POA Defender he gets a level of traditional elite rim protector respect as a defender.

Watched him Offensively and he just feels like Iverson Lite with better understanding of the extra pass and he has an uncanny feel of when the help is over-exerting and he’ll hit the pass really quickly. Not a great floor general, doesn’t really understand facilitation concepts he just hits you when you get open because someone is beat. He also has “Get me out a Slump” and “Heat Check” tendencies, where he’ll either fire it up to see one go in if he’s in a slump or be trigger happy to shoot the ball if he’s on a good run.

Didn’t watch an intensive amount of his game, but from early sightings this is what I’ve come to the conclusion of.



Alternative Vote: Joel Embiid
[Arizin & George Deserves THIS MORE, But his Contemporaries(Giannis and Jokic) are so high up on the list it doesn't do him any justice for him to be this low. Absolute heavy handed hitter. Think he's losing a lot of credit for character and conditions in Philly that are completely out of his control.


NOMINATIONS: TBA( PROBABLY PAU GASOL)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#8 » by AEnigma » Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:22 pm

WintaSoldier1 wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
WintaSoldier1 wrote:people need to discuss more here; I read the conversation about Thurmond was really good perspectives being thrown around. But it’s strange how we as a collective can have a 20+ Post about Thurmond but the person who gets nominated is… Jimmy Butler??? Who nearly nobody was talking about in scope since 4~ Selections ago? Same for Draymond, the same posters came and posted the advanced analytics rhetoric 10 nominations in a row until he got in.

I have failed to be more astute about my voting and nominations. I’m not mad nor do I have ill will to any one here or group, just kinda of confused the way we sit here and spend time doing one thing and then another happens, because clearly people have a set agenda and their mind made up.

Do you think conversations should be fully replicated and rehashed every thread?

Yeah, we talked about Butler and Draymond. People generally made up their minds when they did. At the time, it was not enough for them to be inducted, but a few threads later, it was, and everyone still remembered the conversation.

Last thread we talked about Thurmond, but in the lens of why some people could abstractly envision voting for him and others could not. When a topic of conversation arises, people are not going to stay silent simply because, “Hm, sorry, that is not applicable to my current vote.”

Admittedly it makes for unsatisfying retroactive reading, but that is inherent to the dialogue. If someone had sufficient drive and time, then they could go through each thread and link the main discussion chains that occurred before a player was inducted, but I am not volunteering for that task. :lol:

It's less that I don't feel like people shouldn't be able to speak about topics that aren't completely relevant to the current post, It's more I want to discourage people from Copy-Pasta Voting,

What do you want, a slight variation on phrasing/reasoning every time? Would that make the induction threads more coherent? I do not think it would.

For multiple threads and then we suddenly just watch a nominee who has had no significant relevance in dialogue be nominated.

Okay, so are you going to vote for players based only on who was discussed the most that specific thread?

Being insufferable I'd argue the reason why some players get nominations(this is a reference to ur plea for Pau & Cowens) over others is because of the copy-pasta culture that we've enthralled ourselves with.

That take seems undercooked.

Also, my last bit of insufferably I'd probably point to "Thinking Basketball" as a huge influence over this list( It's why Reggie, Nash, & Manu are so high... That's not the limitations of the influence either.... The entire top 30 is probably skewed in a direction that highlights thinking basketballs' influence over non-casual discussion).

As far as I am aware, unless he has radically increased his assessment in the past couple of years, Ben/Elgee does not have Manu in his top 50, let alone his top 40. He does have Isiah Thomas in his top 40, and not a single person has nominated him yet (although both Trex and I have expressed some passive support should someone care to start nominating him). In fact, for the past while, this list has been extremely at odds with his own. Seems like you are gesturing at something without really checking whether it applies.

I agree in general there has been some association of thinking, but remember the origins of much of his thoughts. Nash and Reggie have been discussed on this forum at length long before Backpicks / Thinking Basketball. Is there influence specific to Ben/Elgee? Sure, probably (although as I highlighted, substantially less with recent inductions and nominations). However, identifying “influence” is not an argument in itself. His stances evidently resonate with many. If you want to oppose them, give a clear articulation why they should be opposed. And it would probably help if you checked what they were before trying to speak out against them.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#9 » by WintaSoldier1 » Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:31 pm

AEnigma wrote:
WintaSoldier1 wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Do you think conversations should be fully replicated and rehashed every thread?

Yeah, we talked about Butler and Draymond. People generally made up their minds when they did. At the time, it was not enough for them to be inducted, but a few threads later, it was, and everyone still remembered the conversation.

Last thread we talked about Thurmond, but in the lens of why some people could abstractly envision voting for him and others could not. When a topic of conversation arises, people are not going to stay silent simply because, “Hm, sorry, that is not applicable to my current vote.”

Admittedly it makes for unsatisfying retroactive reading, but that is inherent to the dialogue. If someone had sufficient drive and time, then they could go through each thread and link the main discussion chains that occurred before a player was inducted, but I am not volunteering for that task. :lol:

It's less that I don't feel like people shouldn't be able to speak about topics that aren't completely relevant to the current post, It's more I want to discourage people from Copy-Pasta Voting,

What do you want, a slight variation on phrasing/reasoning every time? Would that make the induction threads more coherent? I do not think it would.

For multiple threads and then we suddenly just watch a nominee who has had no significant relevance in dialogue be nominated.

Okay, so are you going to vote for players based only on who was discussed the most that specific thread?

Being insufferable I'd argue the reason why some players get nominations(this is a reference to ur plea for Pau & Cowens) over others is because of the copy-pasta culture that we've enthralled ourselves with.

That take seems undercooked.

Also, my last bit of insufferably I'd probably point to "Thinking Basketball" as a huge influence over this list( It's why Reggie, Nash, & Manu are so high... That's not the limitations of the influence either.... The entire top 30 is probably skewed in a direction that highlights thinking basketballs' influence over non-casual discussion).

As far as I am aware, unless he has radically increased in assessment in the past couple of years, Ben/Elgee does not have Manu in his top 50, let alone top 40.

I agree in general there has been an association of thinking, but remember the origins of much of his thoughts. Nash and Reggie have been discussed on this forum at length long before Backpicks / Thinking Basketball. Is there influence specific to Ben/Elgee? Sure, probably. However, identifying “influence” is not an argument in itself. His stances evidently resonate with many. If you want to oppose them, give a clear articulation why they should be opposed.


It's less that I feel we should re-iterate things over and over, I'm speaking more in a directional language that people should interact and be challenged more. My take about Cowens & Pau not being nominated is pointing to the lack of interactive dialogue we have about players in general. This is a long-form group essay that we're building together and reliant on each others perspective, It feels like a Group-Multiple Choice Test where we take the majority answer after some deliberation, but the worst part about it is sometimes people avoid deliberation deliberately in order to push their agenda!

Will take your advice about being more antagonistic towards some posts although, you're right; Complaining about the state of the project will not do anything, action must be undertook.

Thank you for your posts once again Aengima, You're a impressive poster in regards to articulative clarity, and activity.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#10 » by f4p » Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:32 pm

AEnigma wrote:Both these nominees would have immediately slotted to the top of my ballot several rounds ago. I have repeatedly expressed my befuddlement at the disregard for Cowens (especially when his lesser longevity is something this bloc has typically forgiven), but Ray Allen is also starting to feel like a strange exclusion when compared to other wings here. To me the only thing that would justify 15+ spots of separation between Ray and Reggie is that Reggie’s Pacers did not miss the playoffs, while Ray’s Bucks/Sonics often did. But that is also pretty obviously not Ray’s fault, so…



trex_8063 wrote:NOMINATION: Pau Gasol
I think we're way overdue to not at least have him eligible.


back when i was fitting the project results to things like the box score (including longevity) and titles/FMVP's, which was up through vote 29, it predicted ray allen would be 38 and reggie miller 39 and predicted pau at 33. purely by Box * Longevity (not fitted to the project or anything), Allen would be at 33 and Pau at 34, so not far off the project fit rankings. so they actually do seem to be pretty overlooked based on how previous votes went. especially with pau being so valuable on a back-to-back-to-back finalist.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#11 » by AEnigma » Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:36 pm

WintaSoldier1 wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
WintaSoldier1 wrote:It's less that I don't feel like people shouldn't be able to speak about topics that aren't completely relevant to the current post, It's more I want to discourage people from Copy-Pasta Voting,

What do you want, a slight variation on phrasing/reasoning every time? Would that make the induction threads more coherent? I do not think it would.

For multiple threads and then we suddenly just watch a nominee who has had no significant relevance in dialogue be nominated.

Okay, so are you going to vote for players based only on who was discussed the most that specific thread?

Being insufferable I'd argue the reason why some players get nominations(this is a reference to ur plea for Pau & Cowens) over others is because of the copy-pasta culture that we've enthralled ourselves with.

That take seems undercooked.

Also, my last bit of insufferably I'd probably point to "Thinking Basketball" as a huge influence over this list( It's why Reggie, Nash, & Manu are so high... That's not the limitations of the influence either.... The entire top 30 is probably skewed in a direction that highlights thinking basketballs' influence over non-casual discussion).

As far as I am aware, unless he has radically increased in assessment in the past couple of years, Ben/Elgee does not have Manu in his top 50, let alone top 40.

I agree in general there has been an association of thinking, but remember the origins of much of his thoughts. Nash and Reggie have been discussed on this forum at length long before Backpicks / Thinking Basketball. Is there influence specific to Ben/Elgee? Sure, probably. However, identifying “influence” is not an argument in itself. His stances evidently resonate with many. If you want to oppose them, give a clear articulation why they should be opposed.


It's less that I feel we should re-iterate things over and over, I'm speaking more in a directional language that people should interact and be challenged more. My take about Cowens & Pau not being nominated is pointing to the lack of interactive dialogue we have about players in general. This is a long-form group essay that we're building together and reliant on each others perspective, It feels like a Group-Multiple Choice Test where we take the majority answer after some deliberation, but the worst part about it is sometimes people avoid deliberation deliberately in order to push their agenda!

Will take your advice about being more antagonistic towards some posts although, you're right; Complaining about the state of the project will not do anything, action must be undertook.

Thank you for your posts once again Aengima, You're a impressive poster in regards to articulative clarity, and activity.

Speaking for myself, I am good with some amount of “antagonism” to drive discussion, so long as it does not become excessively repetitive (e.g. if hypothetically someone were to use multiple posts every thread asking why Arizin is getting votes when he would probably not be anything good or special today). If you want to push me on my votes/nominations, have at it. I agree it makes for a more engaging project when we have conversations rather than individual box-checking.

The other thing that just came to mind: a lot of discussion happens during the nomination process. So the discussions you see tend to be focused on that, and then they never really get revisited once successfully admitted as a candidate.

Principally, I agree it would be better if votes were discussed while nominations were treated as box-checking, as opposed to the reverse. But then you end up deciding between an under-discussed group of candidates, and that is not great either.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#12 » by trelos6 » Wed Dec 13, 2023 8:35 pm

vote: Joel Embiid

Put simply, he has an argument as a top 3 player for 5 seasons. The rest don’t.

Alt vote: Gary Payton

Combination of fantastic defensive impact for a guard and 7 seasons of all NBA value.

Nomination: Mutombo

14 seasons of very good defensive impact. Perhaps a top 5 defender in NBA history.

Players on my radar:

Ben Wallace
Isiah Thomas
Robert Parish
Damian Lillard
Larry Nance
Willis Reed
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#13 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:18 pm

WintaSoldier1 wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
WintaSoldier1 wrote:people need to discuss more here; I read the conversation about Thurmond was really good perspectives being thrown around. But it’s strange how we as a collective can have a 20+ Post about Thurmond but the person who gets nominated is… Jimmy Butler??? Who nearly nobody was talking about in scope since 4~ Selections ago? Same for Draymond, the same posters came and posted the advanced analytics rhetoric 10 nominations in a row until he got in.

I have failed to be more astute about my voting and nominations. I’m not mad nor do I have ill will to any one here or group, just kinda of confused the way we sit here and spend time doing one thing and then another happens, because clearly people have a set agenda and their mind made up.

Do you think conversations should be fully replicated and rehashed every thread?

Yeah, we talked about Butler and Draymond. People generally made up their minds when they did. At the time, it was not enough for them to be inducted, but a few threads later, it was, and everyone still remembered the conversation.

Last thread we talked about Thurmond, but in the lens of why some people could abstractly envision voting for him and others could not. When a topic of conversation arises, people are not going to stay silent simply because, “Hm, sorry, that is not applicable to my current vote.”

Admittedly it makes for unsatisfying retroactive reading, but that is inherent to the dialogue. If someone had sufficient drive and time, then they could go through each thread and link the main discussion chains that occurred before a player was inducted, but I am not volunteering for that task. :lol:


It's less that I don't feel like people shouldn't be able to speak about topics that aren't completely relevant to the current post, It's more I want to discourage people from Copy-Pasta Voting, For multiple threads and then we suddenly just watch a nominee who has had no significant relevance in dialogue be nominated. Being insufferable I'd argue the reason why some players get nominations(this is a reference to ur plea for Pau & Cowens) over others is because of the copy-pasta culture that we've enthralled ourselves with.

People voting based on their own limited scope of knowledge(This isn't an attack to someone specific, It's about the culture) isn't going to produce a good list, we as a collective need to be challenged in order for us to produce a more refined version of the list from here-forth. Also, my last bit of insufferably I'd probably point to "Thinking Basketball" as a huge influence over this list( It's why Reggie, Nash, & Manu are so high... That's not the limitations of the influence either.... The entire top 30 is probably skewed in a direction that highlights thinking basketballs' influence over non-casual discussion).

Also in terms of nominee's I may be voting Pau Gasol in along with you. Will be ensuing the Iverson push in 5 or so spots, but it's doubtful it's worth my time here.


So, you have some concerns that I share, but you should also understand that for some of these things, I don't think there's any solution to.

Ideally the focus of conversation in any thread should center around players getting Inducted/Nominated in that thread, but how do you force that to be the case? You can force people to put that in their votes - and that's exactly what we're doing - but you can't force other posters to respond to those specific posts and not talk about anything else. Hence, while the arguments leading to a guy getting voted in are always there, the debate tends to drift toward non-redundancy. People who already debated with each other about a particular guy before aren't going to re-start that debate every thread.

Hence what I'd say is that if you want to see a certain discussion happen, try to get it started. Reply to someone else's arguments, pose a question to the group, etc.

Re: copy-pasta culture. I would say copy-pasta culture is generally about copying what someone else said. When you're just re-posting your thoughts on the topic, I don't know what the alternative would be. For myself, when it makes sense to emphasize something else I write that in my posts, but if nothing's really changed, why would I veer away from my preferred choice of words?

Re: Thinking Basketball influence. So, this is a trickier thing than you might realize. I'm loathe to say Ben's influence is overrated, but you do need to understand that Ben joined the PC board and its project in 2010 and that by that point it was already the best place for historical-analytical evaluation anywhere. It's why he came here, and coming here helped him further his own thinking.

If you were to take any individual poster here and compared Ben's influence on them to their influence on Ben, I'd expect Ben would have greater influence...but that doesn't mean he wasn't influenced by others here, and in general the similarities between Ben's rankings and rankings on here is more a matter of swimming in the same analytical waters than it is about anyone here using Ben as a default.

I might suggest you got to the first post of this thread and click on the historical spreadsheet to get a sense of how folks around here. You're going to see that that Nash & Miller - at least at times - placed quite high compared to what many would think was right. That happened because there were champions for those guys before Ben, and I'll say specifically that I was one of them.

Ginobili is harder to parse out in the timeline, and there I'd say the main reason is that he's a trickier scenario than Nash or Miller - who themselves were clearly fairly tricky. But again I'd say that I've generally been a champion of him, and I've been championing him particularly hard in recent years outside of the project as I've become more and more convinced that there's no justification for downplaying his impact data.

Now all of this could end up coming off like I'm saying "They aren't following Ben, they're following me!", which isn't what I intend to say. It's possible that my influence is overly strong at this time, in part because I'm running the project, but I think it's important not to underestimate the other minds involved here. There are a lot of smart folks here who don't want to just follow the opinions of anyone else.

To try to sum it up: I think it's important not to think that you and Ben are the only independent minds here, and that where people disagree with you, it's because they are following Ben. Frankly, there's a very good chance that most of the folks have thought about this considerably more than you have simply because most of the folks here have thought about this far more than, say, the folks the NBA had vote for their Top 75. Hence, even if this isn't true pertaining to you, take care not to assume that this is a random group of basketball fans. Outside of APBR, the average historical knowledge here probably tops any group you can think of, and the group here in general is considerably larger in practice than what APBR draws.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#14 » by trex_8063 » Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:25 am

WintaSoldier1 wrote:
This vote needs to be Gary Payton, .


Although I'm trying not to get emotionally invested in the list/order, I do have to ask.....

If that's how you feel, why didn't you vote for Payton last round (instead of only having him as your alternate)? That sliver of a difference gave the spot to Butler (seriously): if you'd had your primary and alternate switched around, Gary Payton would be #52.

I suspect nearly every round from here on out will likewise be just that close.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#15 » by WintaSoldier1 » Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:30 am

WintaSoldier1 wrote:This list is so inherently political in scope, I’ll be changing my tactics back to advocating for specific people not based on pure “ability” as in who’s better but as in who needs to get in more as of right now.

Honestly I’m getting a bit salty the two players who were just nominated got in… And I don’t see the trend of players who flat out don’t deserve to be in before some of their other contemporaries ending soon, But I cannot sit around doing nothing and voting for who deserves it “aimlessly” anymore due.

This vote needs to be Gary Payton, And people need to discuss more here; I read the conversation about Thurmond was really good perspectives being thrown around. But it’s strange how we as a collective can have a 20+ Post about Thurmond but the person who gets nominated is… Jimmy Butler??? Who nearly nobody was talking about in scope since 4~ Selections ago? Same for Draymond, the same posters came and posted the advanced analytics rhetoric 10 nominations in a row until he got in.

I have failed to be more astute about my voting and nominations. I’m not mad nor do I have ill will to any one here or group, just kinda of confused the way we sit here and spend time doing one thing and then another happens, because clearly people have a set agenda and their mind made up.
trex_8063 wrote:
WintaSoldier1 wrote:
This vote needs to be Gary Payton, .


Although I'm trying not to get emotionally invested in the list/order, I do have to ask.....

If that's how you feel, why didn't you vote for Payton last round (instead of only having him as your alternate)? That sliver of a difference gave the spot to Butler (seriously): if you'd had your primary and alternate switched around, Gary Payton would be #52.

I suspect nearly every round from here on out will likewise be just that close.


Copy-pasta! But what it says is basically I was voting for people based on my pure respect for ability instead of considering the nature of this project itself, and thus I forgo the opportunity to influence the project in a way I view is positive to the direction and refinement of the project.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#16 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:55 am

My vote is for Joel Embiid - God like regular season player but hasn't quite put it together in the post season yet. Hard to say if his game is legitimately not transferable or if injuries are playing a factor in his decline. Either way, it seems like as a scorer he is on another level from nearly everyone left while still being a versatile player.

My alternate vote is for Paul Arizin - I forgot about Paul. I'm not as high on Paul as I used to be but he still was more or less the best player in the league at one point. He won the title as "the guy" and did so playing very well. Paul was alright as an older player, ups and downs for sure. Very impressive player to look at film compared to his competition, seems like he was way ahead of his time. I'd favor him over the defensive specialist like Thurmond/Payton.

Enigma made a lot of good points with Thurmond which reinstated my faith in voting for him. I'll likely switch back to Nate if Paul gets in.

Finally got around to reading some Butler arguments. I'm boosting him up my ranks but not to the point where I'd vote for him yet.

Payton is less impressive to me than the last time I looked at him. Just don't think he really tips the scale in a meaningful enough way. He's not great at what his position should be great at (in an all time sense), and the thing he is great at is what his position is weakest in. He never really "dominated" or had a really crazy run either that I can think of.

Gervin - I've never been convinced that Gervin was a great player, so hopefully this time around is when it happens. Just seems like such a one dimensional player, and I don't know if his scoring is enough to overcome all those negatives AND be placed above the top 60 best players.


My nomination is for Bill Walton

My alternate nomination is for Willis Reed
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#17 » by iggymcfrack » Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:44 am

Vote: Gary Payton
Nominate: Ray Allen


Of all the players who haven't been selected yet, here are the leaders in VORP:
Gary Payton 62.52
Vince Carter 57.90
Ray Allen 57.58
Pau Gasol 57.50
Tracy McGrady 55.66

I think it's time to reward the consistent greatness. Payton and Allen were both near the top of the league for a long time. Also in Allen's case, he had a positive on/off each of his first 15 seasons with an average of +6.2 which is very strong impact.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#18 » by OhayoKD » Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:45 am

WintaSoldier1 wrote:This vote needs to be Gary Payton, And people need to discuss more here; I read the conversation about Thurmond was really good perspectives being thrown around. But it’s strange how we as a collective can have a 20+ Post about Thurmond but the person who gets nominated is… Jimmy Butler??? Who nearly nobody was talking about in scope since 4~ Selections ago? Same for Draymond, the same posters came and posted the advanced analytics rhetoric 10 nominations in a row until he got in.

Fair-ish on Butler. Draymond? not really. He's been one of the most talked about players this project starting as early as the #8 thread when a Steph Curry push started. He also got lots of discussion when Manu was being pushed(which is when people started nominating him).


You can't really say draymond hasn't been talked about enough. That probably applies much more strongly to Gary Payton who has been getting those copypaste votes without any real discussion of his merits relative to other candidates.

Not the best indicator of a deserving inductee
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#19 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:11 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
WintaSoldier1 wrote:This vote needs to be Gary Payton, And people need to discuss more here; I read the conversation about Thurmond was really good perspectives being thrown around. But it’s strange how we as a collective can have a 20+ Post about Thurmond but the person who gets nominated is… Jimmy Butler??? Who nearly nobody was talking about in scope since 4~ Selections ago? Same for Draymond, the same posters came and posted the advanced analytics rhetoric 10 nominations in a row until he got in.

Fair-ish on Butler. Draymond? not really. He's been one of the most talked about players this project starting as early as the #8 thread when a Steph Curry push started. He also got lots of discussion when Manu was being pushed(which is when people started nominating him).


You can't really say draymond hasn't been talked about enough. That probably applies much more strongly to Gary Payton who has been getting those copypaste votes without any real discussion of his merits relative to other candidates.

Not the best indicator of a deserving inductee


An excellent point. There was far more conversation about Green than Payton, and had Payton gotten in over Green it would have been a case of a guy slipping in with very little conversation, whereas Green is one that's been debated back & forth to the point where it's pretty clear how various people see him.

I'd say the perception that Payton should be in and Green is coming out of nowhere makes sense based on someone coming in holding in their mind the general basketball mainstream's pecking order, so the mistake is in assuming knowledge of what must have come before in this project based on that mainstream knowledge.

By contrast, not really a mistake at all to think that this group has some odd perspectives compared to broader norms, and so it makes sense for someone to come in halfway through and be taken aback by what they see.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #53 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/16/2023) 

Post#20 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:52 pm

WintaSoldier1 wrote:This list is so inherently political in scope, I’ll be changing my tactics back to advocating for specific people not based on pure “ability” as in who’s better but as in who needs to get in more as of right now.

Honestly I’m getting a bit salty the two players who were just nominated got in… And I don’t see the trend of players who flat out don’t deserve to be in before some of their other contemporaries ending soon, But I cannot sit around doing nothing and voting for who deserves it “aimlessly” anymore due.


So felt I should go back and hit this specifically.

When you talk about "political in scope", this is a very abstract statement that I'm not sure I know what you mean.

What I do know is that strategic voting is certainly a thing in any project like this unless we go to a Condorcet voting system like trex used last time. The problem with doing that, aside from the extreme workload it put on trex, is that tends to kill discussion in later stages of the project worse than a system like the one I've chosen to use here because people prioritize making long lists rather than just picking a few players to vote for.

So if being "political" means being strategic/tactical, I get it, and I don't mean to knock it. But I'll say a few things:

1. I mostly try to avoid this in my own voting. I find it unpleasant and unhelpful to my own historical analysis to get caught up too much with this. Time spent thinking about "the list" means time spent not thinking about the basketball.

2. I think it's important not to try to craft a list that looks "acceptable" to the outside world. Your post here makes me worry about a "We have to have Player X in the Top Y or we'll look crazy!" type of of motivation, and I'd just say there are worse things than looking crazy. Spending the better part of a year on a project and realizing that in the end you tried to approximate the thinking of other people is really a waste of time.

3. When I talk about focusing on something other than the list results and focusing more on the actual basketball talk, it makes sense if you want to counter, "But there's not that much basketball talk going on that I see right now?", but do keep in mind that we're in the later stages of the project. Early on there's always tons of discussion, but it quiets down as a) people get less passionate about the players getting debated, b) some folks drop out of the project, and c) those in the project have already expressed their views on a given player and had the interactions with others that disagree.

4. None of this is stuff I like, and so I'm really glad when someone comes in midway through and wants to challenge the viewpoints of the people already here. And so I'd encourage you and anyone else to look at what people are posting and try to respond to them in specific. Just keep in mind when you do so that you doing this is less about you looking for discussion that others aren't, and more about you having fresh eyes and ears. Had you been here the whole time, you probably would have already had those interactions with people and beyond a certain point, it wouldn't make sense to keep re-hashing it over and over.
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