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2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm

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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#621 » by JF5 » Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:33 am

Knightro wrote:
JF5 wrote:You use that sample size but don't include how Franz, Paolo, Suggs, and Carter were all shooting under 40% during those 4 games.

It's not good to preface Fultz struggling to shoot during that time when we had Banchero threads saying he wasn't a star player during that time either.


How much of those players struggling in those early games should be attributed to the fact that all of them (Carter the least so since he doesn't dribble much) all had the basketball in their hands a lot less than they do now because Fultz is a heavy dribble guy?

Are you chalking it up to pure coincidence that three of Paolo, Franz and Suggs all took off when Fultz left the lineup? The sample size is probably small enough to say that, but I'm skeptical given Fultz's style of play and individual shortcomings.


Well it's hard to tell because it's a sample size. A lot of players in the league in general shoot like crap at the beginning of the year and usually work their way back to what they are by the end of the first month of the season.

It's more of a wait and see situation. But it's obvious with how the starters more recently are struggling with scoring because they don't more scoring and a 3rd guy that can create their own offense. You see it consistently with it being essentially 3 on 5 basketball because Goga and Black don't create any sort of offense on their own and lack much offensive inclination.

Teams pack the paint even more now, ironically since the the 2nd Washington game. Teams are more aware of just guarding the paint when it comes to cuts and drives to the basket. Which limits the offense even more with those 5 guys. At least with Fultz and Carter you have superior offensive options who expand the offense a little more with the shooting and creativity. The defense obviously won't drop off.
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#622 » by RookieStar » Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:33 am

Optimus_Steel wrote:
RookieStar wrote:Lol... ahhgg typical Magic fans. I miss this. One loss and we over react.

A lots said that Moe is probably one of the best backup C in the league because of his offense and a lot wants to waive him to demote Goga to the bench.

Never change guys... never change



We have a bipolar fanbase, prob trauma from too many losing years. Winning again is new to us and people need to realize we won’t win every game and this team is really young and lacks some pieces still, mainly 3pt shooting and consistent guard scoring threat. There is still going to be ugly nights this year like tonight and Nets games but man there’s gonna be more good nights too like when we beat Bos in the in season tournament game or beating Den on 2nd night of a back to back.


Yup. Exactly. As i said, we cant win em all. Its a 82 game regular season. No way our players will play their A game all the time. There will be ups and downs.
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#623 » by basketballRob » Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:43 am

Knightro wrote:
basketballRob wrote:If Fultz got the 16 minutes Harris played, we would've been better off. I think he should replace him in the rotation.


Harris is in the worst shooting slump he's been in since the Magic acquired him (still shooting 36% 3PT) and you're suggesting the Magic would benefit by going back to the proven to be horrific pairing of Fultz/Cole?

C'mon now.
Yes. Fultz is more dynamic than Harris. It's the same reason I wanted to start Suggs over him. They may have had a bad net rating when they weren't playing with Isaac and Ingles.

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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#624 » by MasterGMer » Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:43 am

djguevara114 wrote:
Optimus_Steel wrote:Disappointing loss but can’t overact on this game. We played like crap and Bos was hyped up due to the numerous losses against us. Still we are a young team that has stuff to work on and the front office over the summer needs to add more 3pt shooting.


Can you overreact to the last three road games against playoff caliber teams? All three games down at least 20 points at one point? Ahhh, why is being a realistic fan so hated on?!

I love the heart they play with—most of the time, but this team is missing a true alpha…


You do see we beat the Cleveland team this week? And we have Celtics again Sunday. We should know a lot better after that. Wait after Sunday, my friend
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#625 » by Optimus_Steel » Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:44 am

djguevara114 wrote:
Optimus_Steel wrote:Disappointing loss but can’t overact on this game. We played like crap and Bos was hyped up due to the numerous losses against us. Still we are a young team that has stuff to work on and the front office over the summer needs to add more 3pt shooting.


Can you overreact to the last three road games against playoff caliber teams? All three games down at least 20 points at one point? Ahhh, why is being a realistic fan so hated on?!

I love the heart they play with—most of the time, but this team is missing a true alpha…




Because you have no sense of perspective. This team is building towards contention but it doesn’t happen in a few months with 21/22 year olds being your best players. We’ve taken a big step forward this year but it’s delusional to think they should be contenders this year. They have proven they are a good team but have more steps to take to get there, as well as the front office taking the steps to round out the roster to improve main weaknesses.
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#626 » by eyriq » Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:48 am

Optimus_Steel wrote:
djguevara114 wrote:
Optimus_Steel wrote:Disappointing loss but can’t overact on this game. We played like crap and Bos was hyped up due to the numerous losses against us. Still we are a young team that has stuff to work on and the front office over the summer needs to add more 3pt shooting.


Can you overreact to the last three road games against playoff caliber teams? All three games down at least 20 points at one point? Ahhh, why is being a realistic fan so hated on?!

I love the heart they play with—most of the time, but this team is missing a true alpha…




Because you have no sense of perspective. This team is building towards contention but it doesn’t happen in a few months with 21/22 year olds being your best players. We’ve taken a big step forward this year but it’s delusional to think they should be contenders this year. They have proven they are a good team but have more steps to take to get there, as well as the front office taking the steps to round out the roster to improve main weaknesses.
I was literally thinking "it's because you lack perspective". Took the words right out of my mouth.
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#627 » by JF5 » Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:49 am

MagicMatic wrote:
JF5 wrote:
Last Guardian wrote:Fultz would help but we could just have Suggs handle/make plays more as an alternative. Paolo and Franz just need help, they are constantly just forcing it into traffic and its annoying especially against the better teams.


Suggs isn't the best playmaker/decision maker and turns the ball over a lot. I mean he can probably get better at it. But I don't see it.


Magic just won 9 games straight with Black and Suggs starting with Fultz getting 0 minutes.

There is more evidence that particular lineup works better than it does with Fultz.

Attempting to make this point after a home court loss to the best team in the East is disingenuous at best.


The Magic won 6 straight with Fultz last year with similar lineups. Also, Black is just as bad of an outsider shooter as Fultz and doesn't offer anything else outside of cutting to the basket and passing. While Fultz is superior to him in every other way offensively.

The only way he really optimizes the offense is just letting Franz and Paolo handle the ball. And you can't get that creative which restricts the offense in what youre able to do with that specified lineup of Goga and Black. I had a similar convo with another poster that specified lineup consistently falls behind and doesn't score until parts of the 2nd unit come in relief in the middle to late portions of quarters because they're playing 3 on 5 with that lineup, and you're looking for Paolo and Franz to get creative.
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#628 » by Knightro » Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:58 am

JF5 wrote:The Magic won 6 straight with Fultz last year with similar lineups. Also, Black is just as bad of an outsider shooter as Fultz and doesn't offer anything else outside of cutting to the basket and passing. While Fultz is superior to him in every other way offensively.


It’s more nuanced than this though.

Fultz can do more things offensively than Black can do right now, that’s a factually accurate thing to say, but that also comes at the expense of Banchero, Wagner and Suggs doing less. And that inevitable trade off has to be weighed accordingly.
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#629 » by JF5 » Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:13 am

Knightro wrote:
JF5 wrote:The Magic won 6 straight with Fultz last year with similar lineups. Also, Black is just as bad of an outsider shooter as Fultz and doesn't offer anything else outside of cutting to the basket and passing. While Fultz is superior to him in every other way offensively.


It’s more nuanced than this though.

Fultz can do more things offensively than Black can do right now, that’s a factually accurate thing to say, but that also comes at the expense of Banchero, Wagner and Suggs doing less. And that inevitable trade off has to be weighed accordingly.


But that's the thing though. We've seen the last few games in the loses against Cleveland, Brooklyn, and Boston where another guy was needed to take the pressure off Franz and Paolo when it comes creating for themselves and others. Suggs isn't type of player as he's more of a catch and shoot guy these days and focuses on defense. His shot attempts haven't really exceeded a certain amount.

To me if you can have similar structure what you have now but defer to Fultz from time to time I see no problem. Also, Franz is a guy who definitely needs to have his off ball game maximized more.

I don't see the real problem with him coming back in the fray. He's a very intelligent player who knows when to pick his spots.
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#630 » by thelead » Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:24 am

WTF happened to Franz’ shot? I expect him to miss these days while I expect Suggs to make shots…
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#631 » by AKAGoMagic15 » Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:32 am

Horrible game today top to bottom, Celtics clearly were motivated and played with great energy. Executed well, made their 3s. On to the next one….

Not one to blame refs, but some of the missed calls this game were extremely frustrating. Even so, guys have to do a better job of staying locked in and running back instead of complaining. We get a chance to make it right on Sunday let’s see how the team responds
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#632 » by MasterGMer » Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:38 am

Seriously, what are Franz and Paolo's ceiling? I already know this team is built for Championship Contention. What else does this team need? A super star Guard? I'd like to know
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#633 » by KillMonger » Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:46 am

glad no one is feeding the troll tonight.....engaging only gives them energy
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#634 » by AKAGoMagic15 » Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:46 am

JF5 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
JF5 wrote:
Suggs isn't the best playmaker/decision maker and turns the ball over a lot. I mean he can probably get better at it. But I don't see it.


Magic just won 9 games straight with Black and Suggs starting with Fultz getting 0 minutes.

There is more evidence that particular lineup works better than it does with Fultz.

Attempting to make this point after a home court loss to the best team in the East is disingenuous at best.


The Magic won 6 straight with Fultz last year with similar lineups. Also, Black is just as bad of an outsider shooter as Fultz and doesn't offer anything else outside of cutting to the basket and passing. While Fultz is superior to him in every other way offensively.

The only way he really optimizes the offense is just letting Franz and Paolo handle the ball. And you can't get that creative which restricts the offense in what youre able to do with that specified lineup of Goga and Black. I had a similar convo with another poster that specified lineup consistently falls behind and doesn't score until parts of the 2nd unit come in relief in the middle to late portions of quarters because they're playing 3 on 5 with that lineup, and you're looking for Paolo and Franz to get creative.


I just don’t get this take. And not singling you out, several posters feel the same way and I’m just curious as to why.

Being a subpar shooter himself, Black remains a million times better from 3 than Fultz, that is what’s crazy. We also have more incentive to let him figure it out since he’s 19 and has shown some progress, from willingness and accuracy of shots.

Fultz on the other hand has not shown any shooting improvement last several years. It’s not a reach to call him the single worst shooter in the league, next to Washington’s Johnny Davis. What is the upside of playing him? Stating that they’re playing 3 on 5 is also puzzling, 15/11 for Goga and 13/9 for Black today those two guys were simply not the issue or reason for loss.
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#635 » by VFX » Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:48 am

JF5 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
JF5 wrote:
Suggs isn't the best playmaker/decision maker and turns the ball over a lot. I mean he can probably get better at it. But I don't see it.


Magic just won 9 games straight with Black and Suggs starting with Fultz getting 0 minutes.

There is more evidence that particular lineup works better than it does with Fultz.

Attempting to make this point after a home court loss to the best team in the East is disingenuous at best.


The Magic won 6 straight with Fultz last year with similar lineups. Also, Black is just as bad of an outsider shooter as Fultz and doesn't offer anything else outside of cutting to the basket and passing. While Fultz is superior to him in every other way offensively.

The only way he really optimizes the offense is just letting Franz and Paolo handle the ball. And you can't get that creative which restricts the offense in what youre able to do with that specified lineup of Goga and Black. I had a similar convo with another poster that specified lineup consistently falls behind and doesn't score until parts of the 2nd unit come in relief in the middle to late portions of quarters because they're playing 3 on 5 with that lineup, and you're looking for Paolo and Franz to get creative.


You do realize you are saying this on a night when Black goes 3-5 from 3 and Fultz is 0% on the season. :lol:

We don’t need Fultz to be “superior offensively” for “different reasons” we need him to run plays, play defense, and hit outside shots to open the floor for Paolo and Franz. Basically everything Black is already doing with the added benefit of passing out of collapsing defenses.

Big part of the reason Orlando lost tonight was due to the bench failing to bail out the abysmal start the starters gave up when Suggs went down. Usually that doesn’t happen often much this season.

I don’t buy this selective narrative that Fultz was the missing ingredient to these losses whenever they rarely happen. The roster didn’t get insurmountably better cohesively to an extent that his absence proves something entirely different from the healthy lineups we saw last season. The only player you could possibly make an argument for is Sugg, who looks exponentially better without Fultz next to him.
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#636 » by MasterGMer » Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:49 am

AKAGoMagic15 wrote:
JF5 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Magic just won 9 games straight with Black and Suggs starting with Fultz getting 0 minutes.

There is more evidence that particular lineup works better than it does with Fultz.

Attempting to make this point after a home court loss to the best team in the East is disingenuous at best.


The Magic won 6 straight with Fultz last year with similar lineups. Also, Black is just as bad of an outsider shooter as Fultz and doesn't offer anything else outside of cutting to the basket and passing. While Fultz is superior to him in every other way offensively.

The only way he really optimizes the offense is just letting Franz and Paolo handle the ball. And you can't get that creative which restricts the offense in what youre able to do with that specified lineup of Goga and Black. I had a similar convo with another poster that specified lineup consistently falls behind and doesn't score until parts of the 2nd unit come in relief in the middle to late portions of quarters because they're playing 3 on 5 with that lineup, and you're looking for Paolo and Franz to get creative.


I just don’t get this take. And not singling you out, several posters feel the same way and I’m just curious as to why.

Being a subpar shooter himself, Black remains a million times better from 3 than Fultz, that is what’s crazy. We also have more incentive to let him figure it out since he’s 19 and has shown some progress, from willingness and accuracy of shots.

Fultz on the other hand has not shown any shooting improvement last several years. It’s not a reach to call him the single worst shooter in the league, next to Washington’s Johnny Davis. What is the upside of playing him? Stating that they’re playing 3 on 5 is also puzzling, 15/11 for Goga and 13/9 for Black today those two guys were simply not the issue or reason for loss.


What? Single worst shooter in the league? Fultz was 2nd in the league in FG% among guards just last season.
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#637 » by AKAGoMagic15 » Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:04 am

MasterGMer wrote:
AKAGoMagic15 wrote:
JF5 wrote:
The Magic won 6 straight with Fultz last year with similar lineups. Also, Black is just as bad of an outsider shooter as Fultz and doesn't offer anything else outside of cutting to the basket and passing. While Fultz is superior to him in every other way offensively.

The only way he really optimizes the offense is just letting Franz and Paolo handle the ball. And you can't get that creative which restricts the offense in what youre able to do with that specified lineup of Goga and Black. I had a similar convo with another poster that specified lineup consistently falls behind and doesn't score until parts of the 2nd unit come in relief in the middle to late portions of quarters because they're playing 3 on 5 with that lineup, and you're looking for Paolo and Franz to get creative.


I just don’t get this take. And not singling you out, several posters feel the same way and I’m just curious as to why.

Being a subpar shooter himself, Black remains a million times better from 3 than Fultz, that is what’s crazy. We also have more incentive to let him figure it out since he’s 19 and has shown some progress, from willingness and accuracy of shots.

Fultz on the other hand has not shown any shooting improvement last several years. It’s not a reach to call him the single worst shooter in the league, next to Washington’s Johnny Davis. What is the upside of playing him? Stating that they’re playing 3 on 5 is also puzzling, 15/11 for Goga and 13/9 for Black today those two guys were simply not the issue or reason for loss.


What? Single worst shooter in the league? Fultz was 2nd in the league in FG% among guards just last season.


He’s good at finishing inside. Can you name a worse 3pt shooter / jump shooter than him playing big minutes at either guard spot?
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#638 » by MasterGMer » Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:09 am

AKAGoMagic15 wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
AKAGoMagic15 wrote:
I just don’t get this take. And not singling you out, several posters feel the same way and I’m just curious as to why.

Being a subpar shooter himself, Black remains a million times better from 3 than Fultz, that is what’s crazy. We also have more incentive to let him figure it out since he’s 19 and has shown some progress, from willingness and accuracy of shots.

Fultz on the other hand has not shown any shooting improvement last several years. It’s not a reach to call him the single worst shooter in the league, next to Washington’s Johnny Davis. What is the upside of playing him? Stating that they’re playing 3 on 5 is also puzzling, 15/11 for Goga and 13/9 for Black today those two guys were simply not the issue or reason for loss.


What? Single worst shooter in the league? Fultz was 2nd in the league in FG% among guards just last season.


He’s good at finishing inside. Can you name a worse 3pt shooter / jump shooter than him playing big minutes at either guard spot?


That is not true. He shot mostly from Mid Range last year. I agree, he is not a good 3pt shooter, at all. But Fultz has too much skills to be overlooked completely. His size. His ball handling, his athleticism and his defense. Trust me, he will make the team better...
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#639 » by thelead » Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:16 am

MasterGMer wrote:
AKAGoMagic15 wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
What? Single worst shooter in the league? Fultz was 2nd in the league in FG% among guards just last season.


He’s good at finishing inside. Can you name a worse 3pt shooter / jump shooter than him playing big minutes at either guard spot?


That is not true. He shot mostly from Mid Range last year. I agree, he is not a good 3pt shooter, at all. But Fultz has too much skills to be overlooked completely. His size. His ball handling, his athleticism and his defense. Trust me, he will make the team better...

Without the jumper, he’s ok if not a subpar starter. The hitch is back even on the midrange shot… On a team not ready to contend, sure, you can use him but if you want to get serious about winning it all, he can’t play starters minutes on a contender. While we’re not there yet, we’re trending that direction and we should figure out who our starting PG will be if it’s not Fultz.
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Re: 2023-2024 Regular Season Game 24: Orlando Magic (16-7) at Boston Celtics (18-5) - 7:30pm 

Post#640 » by AKAGoMagic15 » Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:21 am

MasterGMer wrote:
AKAGoMagic15 wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
What? Single worst shooter in the league? Fultz was 2nd in the league in FG% among guards just last season.


He’s good at finishing inside. Can you name a worse 3pt shooter / jump shooter than him playing big minutes at either guard spot?


That is not true. He shot mostly from Mid Range last year. I agree, he is not a good 3pt shooter, at all. But Fultz has too much skills to be overlooked completely. His size. His ball handling, his athleticism and his defense. Trust me, he will make the team better...


I’ll say this… there are some things he does well, it’s the reason I was maintaining hope for him up until this season, like many posters here. The 3 pt shooting issue though, and his inability to shoot the ball with any consistency, is just too glaring. His playmaking and transition play, where I feel he still has some value, could be utilized off the bench, but we have Cole on the roster who is just much better in that role as a spark plug. When you add the fact that there’s little chance he’s resigned since he’s not a long term fit, why bother bringing him back at all?

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