NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (continued)

[timO]

Are you aware that Kobe Bryant exist in NBA history? The 5x champs, 2x Finals MVP, League MVP, 15x All-NBA, 12x All-Defensive Team, 18x All-Star that Lakers legend Kobe? SGA is great but this is the first time in his 6-year career that he will lead his team to playoffs so maybe let's see if he can will his team to win some playoffs series, maybe get atleast half of Kobe's accomplishments like All-NBAs, NBA Titles, All-Defensive Teams before you declare that SGA is the best 2-way shooting guard since Jordan.

well kobe has 3 free rings with Shaq, and another finals

we see kobe suffering with a scrub team till gasol trade, SGA didnt have a decent team neither now

Sga is the worst player in the nba

Sorry I just had to say an equally stupid take going the opposite direction to balance this out. Essentially
Your take on kobe is about as far off as someone saying sga is the worst in the nba.

try dont be nervous, u only said stupid takes

[Chokic]

With the exception of his two ejections, and two bad games, Jokic was having the best season ever by virtually every advanced metric.
Embiid has surged but he won't win another MVP with Jokic doing what he's doing.

Embiid is great and is still not as good as Jokic this season despite the bad games and ejections. FMVP, defending champ, I don't see a scenario where Jokic isnt given his 3rd mvp.

He's the best player in the NBA, and Embiid's stat padding doesn't change that.

Jokic's award to lose.

Jokic is having a worse season efficiency wise than last season while embiid has gotten even better than his historical mvp season with nearly 34 and 11 on highest PER in nba history in addition to improving upon his playmaking his assists have gone up. Embiid has already sat out 9 4th quarters now and still leads the league in scoring. Insane. Going at this rate Embiid should be the mvp as hes been overall more consistent this season thus far than jokic.

[iggymcfrack]

You think SGA is as good as prime Giannis? Stats aside- just straight up Giannis or SGA - ?

If you're asking me who I'd rather have for the rest of this season and postseason, current SGA or current Giannis, it's SGA.He's the best 2-way shooting guard since Jordan. He's less of an injury risk than Giannis, better at lifting his teammates offensively, more of a leader, and possibly still improving while you never know when the odometer might turn over on Giannis.

Are you aware that Kobe Bryant exist in NBA history? The 5x champs, 2x Finals MVP, League MVP, 15x All-NBA, 12x All-Defensive Team, 18x All-Star that Lakers legend Kobe? SGA is great but this is the first time in his 6-year career that he will lead his team to playoffs so maybe let's see if he can will his team to win some playoffs series, maybe get atleast half of Kobe's accomplishments like All-NBAs, NBA Titles, All-Defensive Teams before you declare that SGA is the best 2-way shooting guard since Jordan.

I’m obviously not saying in terms of accomplishments, geez. I’m just saying in terms of being extremely valuable on each end of the court. Kobe was never anywhere near as good of a defender as Shai.

[iggymcfrack]

With the exception of his two ejections, and two bad games, Jokic was having the best season ever by virtually every advanced metric.
Embiid has surged but he won't win another MVP with Jokic doing what he's doing.

Embiid is great and is still not as good as Jokic this season despite the bad games and ejections. FMVP, defending champ, I don't see a scenario where Jokic isnt given his 3rd mvp.

He's the best player in the NBA, and Embiid's stat padding doesn't change that.

Jokic's award to lose.

Jokic is having a worse season efficiency wise than last season while embiid has gotten even better than his historical mvp season with nearly 34 and 11 on highest PER in nba history in addition to improving upon his playmaking his assists have gone up. Embiid has already sat out 9 4th quarters now and still leads the league in scoring. Insane. Going at this rate Embiid should be the mvp as hes been overall more consistent this season thus far than jokic.

Embiid’s played Indiana, Washington, Atlanta, and Detroit in 9 of his 20 games this year. Those are the 3 teams giving up the most points in the league plus the team with the longest losing streak in 8 seasons.

It’s no wondering Embiid’s been sitting so many 4th quarters. He’s just feasting on the absolute worst defenses in the league over and over. And yet despite that ridiculously easy schedule, he still has a lower NetRtg than SGA and a much lower BPM than Jokic.

In 3 games against Boston and Milwaukee, Joel has had a Game Score under 20 each time and the Sixers were -22 with him on the floor. If he wants to move into the top 2 in the MVP race, he’s going to have to start getting it done against better competition.

[ChartFiction]

he still has a lower NetRtg than SGA and a much lower BPM than Jokic.

BPM 2.0 will always favor Jokic. It has very significant positional weight on assists by centers.

I don't think it will stay this way. They've changed BPM before after Westbrook had the highest ever recorded BPM. There is a very significant gap biased towards Jokic compared to all other players in BPM due to the positional weights. Other stats also use BPM directly. VORP for example is just BPM over a theoretical replacement. So a change in BPM would have cascading effects on other stats people tend to reference.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html

The BPM 2.0 regression works off of per-100 possession statistics. All statistics are translated to per-100 team possessions. While this can potentially lose a bit of nuance (for instance, not accounting for the number of opportunities for the given stat to be accrued), it does streamline everything about the calculation. The output of the regression is in points per 100 team possessions.

As mentioned above: the coefficients vary by the position and offensive role the player plays. In other words, some statistics mean different things if the player plays point guard versus if the player is a center.

To do this, every player is assigned a standard position value and also an offensive "creation" position value. Both of these position spectrums vary between position 1 (PG & Creator) and position 5 (Center & Receiver). These position scales are calculated using regressions found in the appendix.

Position 1.0 (PG) Assists Coeff: 0.580
Position 5.0 (C) Assists Coeff: 1.034

A center’s assists are usually very high value. In addition, post players that pass well are typically better defenders [...] Assists are a significant indicator of defensive skill for bigs.

[_NoMas]

Why does SGA just get thrown out in the trash with all the miscellaneous guys when he's been better than Giannis on both ends all season? The Thunder are 6 points better with SGA on the floor than the Bucks are with Giannis and 5 points worse without him than the Bucks without Giannis. SGA averages the same points and assists as Giannis on half as many turnovers. He has 1.5x as many steals as any other player in the league. He leads all guards in blocks. He's second in the league for shots contested by a guard and second in the league for lowest opponents' field goal percentage. The only thing Giannis has done better this season is rebound.

You think SGA is as good as prime Giannis? Stats aside- just straight up Giannis or SGA - ?

If you're asking me who I'd rather have for the rest of this season and postseason, current SGA or current Giannis, it's SGA. He's the best 2-way shooting guard since Jordan. He's less of an injury risk than Giannis, better at lifting his teammates offensively, more of a leader, and possibly still improving while you never know when the odometer might turn over on Giannis.

You can’t be serious

[Heej]

If you're asking me who I'd rather have for the rest of this season and postseason, current SGA or current Giannis, it's SGA.He's the best 2-way shooting guard since Jordan. He's less of an injury risk than Giannis, better at lifting his teammates offensively, more of a leader, and possibly still improving while you never know when the odometer might turn over on Giannis.

Are you aware that Kobe Bryant exist in NBA history? The 5x champs, 2x Finals MVP, League MVP, 15x All-NBA, 12x All-Defensive Team, 18x All-Star that Lakers legend Kobe? SGA is great but this is the first time in his 6-year career that he will lead his team to playoffs so maybe let's see if he can will his team to win some playoffs series, maybe get atleast half of Kobe's accomplishments like All-NBAs, NBA Titles, All-Defensive Teams before you declare that SGA is the best 2-way shooting guard since Jordan.

I’m obviously not saying in terms of accomplishments, geez. I’m just saying in terms of being extremely valuable on each end of the court. Kobe was never anywhere near as good of a defender as Shai.

How quickly we forget Wade existed. Best defender ever for a superstar 2 guard. Son functioned as a primary rim protector in the Heat's scheme for years and was an off-ball savant. Sheer insanity

[Hussien Fatal]

There is no world in which Joel Embiid smashes the PER record and doesn’t win MVP. It’s close to a guarantee. His PER is at an NBA record 33.9! That would indeed smash the previous record of 32.8 held by Jokic.

If Embiid leads the league in scoring while also setting the PER record its a lock for him. Not to mention the Sixers are 17-4 when he plays which is equivalent to a 68 win pace.

[iggymcfrack]

There is no world in which Joel Embiid smashes the PER record and doesn’t win MVP. It’s close to a guarantee. His PER is at an NBA record 33.9! That would indeed smash the previous record of 32.8 held by Jokic.

If Embiid leads the league in scoring while also setting the PER record its a lock for him. Not to mention the Sixers are 17-4 when he plays which is equivalent to a 68 win pace.

He’s barely ahead of Joker despite playing bottom 6 defenses in 9 out of 20 games and his on/off is 10.5 points worse per 100 possessions. You’re gonna need a little more than that to steal another MVP.

[maxpower8888]

Guys, you do realize that his PER will drop right? Every season there's a guy with a high PER early on which levels out as the season goes by. Both Jokic and Giannis have had 35+ PERs early on in the season. Embiid's current PER isn't the highest ever, it just would be if he can sustain it until the season ends.

[dygaction]

There is no world in which Joel Embiid smashes the PER record and doesn’t win MVP. It’s close to a guarantee. His PER is at an NBA record 33.9! That would indeed smash the previous record of 32.8 held by Jokic.

If Embiid leads the league in scoring while also setting the PER record its a lock for him. Not to mention the Sixers are 17-4 when he plays which is equivalent to a 68 win pace.

Would have been even more amazing if he missed the four losses so that he is 17-0 on a 82 win pace

[Dutchball97]

Haliburton is pretty fascinating right now as he might just be both the best offensive player and worst defensive player in the league at the same time. His +8.5 O-EPM ranks 1st in the league right now with Jokic just behind him at +8.4 but the difference with #3 Embiid at a +7 is already significant. Haliburton's -2.6 D-EPM, on the other hand, is in the 2nd percentile with only 7 players getting a lower rating, although none of them play as much as him.

[losmi]

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That would be impressive if he hadn't ducked the three toughest games between those nine.

He seems to be on mission to break all streak records by cherrypicking opponents.

[Hobo4President]

Guys, you do realize that his PER will drop right? Every season there's a guy with a high PER early on which levels out as the season goes by. Both Jokic and Giannis have had 35+ PERs early on in the season. Embiid's current PER isn't the highest ever, it just would be if he can sustain it until the season ends.

Yeh wasn't it last year Luka had a PER of like 37 near the start of the season?

[maxpower8888]

Guys, you do realize that his PER will drop right? Every season there's a guy with a high PER early on which levels out as the season goes by. Both Jokic and Giannis have had 35+ PERs early on in the season. Embiid's current PER isn't the highest ever, it just would be if he can sustain it until the season ends.

Yeh wasn't it last year Luka had a PER of like 37 near the start of the season?

Yep, just like with all stats, it will level out. Like when the season starts and after 3 games you have guys averaging like 42 PPG after a hot start. Embiid may very well finish the season as the PER leader but chances are he won't sustain this PER.

[Mrakar]

Is Embiid sitting out tonight? Back2back, away game? My bet, he is not since its Charlotte.

Khm khm khm

[eyeatoma]

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That would be impressive if he hadn't ducked the three toughest games between those nine.

He seems to be on mission to break all streak records by cherrypicking opponents.

What would be impressive is if you would stop being a broken record.

I still haven't heard your explanation for him missing to games being sick. The entire team was sick and multiple players including Maxey missed games. The whole team was ducking too?

[Hussien Fatal]

Embiid is having a GOAT level regular season!

[dygaction]

Why 76ers grinding biid so hard to flex on b2b weak teams?

[mediocrityrules]

Why 76ers grinding biid so hard to flex on b2b weak teams?

It's odd that he's still on the floor when Philly are up by 40.