2023-2024 Regular Season Game 25: Orlando Magic (16-8) at Boston Celtics (19-5) - 3pm

[basketballRob]

When Wendell comes back, I think you play Goga with the second unit. Cole, AB, Ingles, Isaac, and Goga.

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[ChosenSavior]

When Wendell comes back, I think you play Goga with the second unit. Cole, AB, Ingles, Isaac, and Goga.

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Agree with this. Interested to see how Coach handles this.

[Bensational]

I zero in on Cole because he’s the most critical option that can be addressed, and because he faces no serious criticism ever. You’re not even prepared to critique his play the way you are AB or Goga or Paolo and Franz or even Fultz.

This is absolutely nonsense, seriously. You're not about to "fake news" that nobody is zeroing in on Cole because literally 75% of the forum does it when the team is playing bad. There are whipping boys in every iteration of Magic teams - first was Elfrid, then Bamba, Fultz, now it's Cole too. Please do not insult my intelligence with takes like that because you are a smart and good poster who I mostly agree with, but it's extremely clear when you have biases. I was not the person arguing we should move on from Cole before this season, you were. I was mostly fine with our guard situation because I realized we had injuries, that Fultz is a great short-term option, Cole is good off the bench, Suggs would improve, and AB would come along slowly and get the keys next year.

My prior position, unsurprisingly, is mostly unchanged seeing as how we started the season.

Hell, Cole isn't even my favorite guard on the team - Suggs is, and I'm critical of him too, but I would be defending the hell out of him if he got the lion's share of the blame when there are clear problems all over the roster when we lose like this. I defend Fultz more than I want to as well even though I don't think he should be on the team next year.

What fake news? There are maybe 3-4 people who have criticised Cole. Most posters blindly dismiss the critiques and invalidate them with stuff like what you’re saying now. How many times have you said something to the effect of “Black is a rookie who gives us nothing on offense”, versus how many times have you acknowledged Cole is porous defensively? You’re very prepared to bench rookie AB but you’re giving Cole a free pass on all his mistakes when he’s experienced and high USG. I mean, if you want to talk about biases what about yourself and other posters who wanted to bench Black and Goga during our winning streak? But now that we’re losing games we couldn’t possibly start looking critically at our highest USG guys.

I’m not saying get Cole off the team, I’m simply saying Mosley needs to know when to bench him and it needs to happen far more frequently than it does.

Again, the story of tonight was that when Anthony Black was on the court we outscored Boston by 17 points. When Cole was on the court we were outscored by 14 points. The team found a way to negate Franz’s cold night when Black was in but they couldn’t when Cole was in. You simply don’t have a defensible position in tonight’s game.

[fateis007]

I like Cole, the main issue hes small and doesn't keep anyone infront of him.

100% the gameplan for celtics was to cause switches and attack mismatches and they had HUGE success every time they got their guy on Cole, he was being lit up.

The issue here? If he isn't going to come out and be an explosive scorer when teams clamp down on him, and he is being targeted on the other end, it's just a bad combo.

I am not giving up on him or anything, but anyone with eyeballs that watched both games saw them eating his lunch every chance they could.

And obviously that wasn't all, gharris should be out the league, and the wagner brothers went from looking like a dynamic duo, to straight garbage.

[eyriq]

Black with 17 mins, Harris with 26. Total fail by coaches.

[ibraheim718]

The thing about Cole is today it was clear for the first minute he didn't have it. When it's clear he's not going to get anything going or the effort isn't there on D you have to sit him.

[IllMagic04]

The thing about Cole is today it was clear for the first minute he didn't have it. When it's clear he's not going to get anything going or the effort isn't there on D you have to sit him.

I agree to an extent. I don't think theres any doubt Black should have played more. Straight up benching Cole is tough cause we need his offense. He was bad but so was Franz. In both cases as a coach your hoping they see one go in and get hot.

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[ibraheim718]

Does the team call about Donovan Mitchell and dangle a cache of picks?

Mitchell
Suggs
Wagner
Banchero
WCJ

[ibraheim718]

The thing about Cole is today it was clear for the first minute he didn't have it. When it's clear he's not going to get anything going or the effort isn't there on D you have to sit him.

I agree to an extent. I don't think theres any doubt Black should have played more. Straight up benching Cole is tough cause we need his offense. He was bad but so was Franz. In both cases as a coach your hoping they see one go in and get hot.

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Maybe the ankle did slow him down. He's usually been way better on D this year with the hustle and effort.

[VFX]

Cole is very streaky.

And by that I mean game to game. His offense has to offset what he doesn’t do defensively a lot of the time and you can forget it if a guy like Pritchard is lighting us up from 3.

Cole has looked very good out there with Ingles and Moe in particular. Well… Joe wasn’t out there and both Wagners went missing once they entered Boston a few days ago.

[SOUL]

What fake news? There are maybe 3-4 people who have criticised Cole.

This is straight up not true. I can legit go back in this thread and others and it'll be 10 straight posts about Cole even when others are struggling - it was literally happening when Brown blew by Franz and then Moe got scored on and it was still about Cole. Outside of AB's non-believers during draft, most of the posts about him is that he isn't a threat to stretch the court when we need scoring. He hit zero threes in 13 of 15 games - sorry, but he isn't the player people envision him to be yet, and that's perfectly okay! He's 19 years old and looks great as a connector piece already. I'm just done with the delusional takes about rookies - Jett is not our three point savior and AB, while playable and really good in certain games, is not a savant that is shutting down Jaylen Brown and making our offense hum. Could he stand to get more minutes and get more usage? Of course he could, but that's not what I'm arguing.

How many times have you acknowledged Cole is porous defensively?

Considering our defense has been great pretty much 3/4ths of this season, I haven't had many complaints at all from defense from anybody outside of Moe (who I just want to rebound and when he doesn't, I get annoyed) and selective players where players fall asleep. If Cole is trying but is getting switched on to people bigger than him, why would I blame that on him? That makes no sense. Him forcing **** and turning it over is 10x more annoying because I expect better offensive play. I'm not going to get mad at Paolo for not hitting a lot of threes or Franz for not having rebounding well, because I don't necessarily expect those things from them.

You’re very prepared to bench rookie AB but you’re giving Cole a free pass on all his mistakes when he’s experienced and high USG. I mean, if you want to talk about biases what about yourself and other posters who wanted to bench Black and Goga during our winning streak? But now that we’re losing games we couldn’t possibly start looking critically at our highest USG guys.

Where did I say this? I'm on record saying I want Goga playing over Moe, I also said that Fultz and WCJ do not harm the team.. and that the usage will have to change when they come back to get Paolo more involved on ball. All I've said is that because we're on a winning streak doesn't mean that starting lineup the answer and that our bench was the real difference maker, and I am doubling down on that. The same argument was made last year when Bol Bol was part of our winning streak and people wanted to trade WCJ. To me, it's a shallow way of looking at success of the team and team building. "Team was on a winning streak? Oh, this lineup can never be changed! Trade the guys that aren't involved in it!" - and predictably, people are starting to question what the best lineup is now because stats are showing that our starting lineup is not our strength. It wasn't with Fultz and WCJ either to be fair, but having more bodies out there is a good problem to have.

Again, the story of tonight was that when Anthony Black was on the court we outscored Boston by 17 points. When Cole was on the court we were outscored by 14 points. The team found a way to negate Franz’s cold night when Black was in but they couldn’t when Cole was in. You simply don’t have a defensible position in tonight’s game.

Single game +/- is probably the most unreliable "stat" there is. Not saying AB was doing nothing, but players that theoretically do nothing in all the minutes they had with certain lineups and end up with the highest +/-. To me, if there were 3-4 players with a similar +/- (in competitive minutes), that is better to gauge because it showed specific lineups working and we should've played them more.

[SOUL]

Anyway, it is what it is. Cole's defense sucked, Gary's three point shooting sucked, Moe's rebounding sucked, Paolo's 2nd half was inefficient, Franz is in a slump = recipe for a disaster.

[basketballRob]

Harris is 9-44 for 20.5% from 3 in the last 11 games.

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[RookieStar]

Does the team call about Donovan Mitchell and dangle a cache of picks?

Mitchell
Suggs
Wagner
Banchero
WCJ

If DOM is willing to sign an extension then why not.

[Bensational]

How many times have you acknowledged Cole is porous defensively?

Considering our defense has been great pretty much 3/4ths of this season, I haven't had many complaints at all from defense from anybody outside of Moe (who I just want to rebound and when he doesn't, I get annoyed) and selective players where players fall asleep. If Cole is trying but is getting switched on to people bigger than him, why would I blame that on him? That makes no sense. Him forcing **** and turning it over is 10x more annoying because I expect better offensive play. I'm not going to get mad at Paolo for not hitting a lot of threes or Franz for not having rebounding well, because I don't necessarily expect those things from them.

Why wouldn’t you attribute his poor defense to him? Why would you credit him with good defense when the 2nd unit carries him on that wide, but when he is individually getting blown by and scored over you want to put that blame on Moe. I think the standards you hold Moe to should be at least the same for Cole, but ultimately more because he has a much larger role and usage.

You’re very prepared to bench rookie AB but you’re giving Cole a free pass on all his mistakes when he’s experienced and high USG. I mean, if you want to talk about biases what about yourself and other posters who wanted to bench Black and Goga during our winning streak? But now that we’re losing games we couldn’t possibly start looking critically at our highest USG guys.

Where did I say this? I'm on record saying I want Goga playing over Moe, I also said that Fultz and WCJ do not harm the team.. and that the usage will have to change when they come back to get Paolo more involved on ball. All I've said is that because we're on a winning streak doesn't mean that starting lineup the answer and that our bench was the real difference maker, and I am doubling down on that. The same argument was made last year when Bol Bol was part of our winning streak and people wanted to trade WCJ. To me, it's a shallow way of looking at success of the team and team building. "Team was on a winning streak? Oh, this lineup can never be changed! Trade the guys that aren't involved in it!" - and predictably, people are starting to question what the best lineup is now because stats are showing that our starting lineup is not our strength. It wasn't with Fultz and WCJ either to be fair, but having more bodies out there is a good problem to have.

Again, the story of tonight was that when Anthony Black was on the court we outscored Boston by 17 points. When Cole was on the court we were outscored by 14 points. The team found a way to negate Franz’s cold night when Black was in but they couldn’t when Cole was in. You simply don’t have a defensible position in tonight’s game.

Single game +/- is probably the most unreliable "stat" there is. Not saying AB was doing nothing, but players that theoretically do nothing in all the minutes they had with certain lineups and end up with the highest +/-. To me, if there were 3-4 players with a similar +/- (in competitive minutes), that is better to gauge because it showed specific lineups working and we should've played them more.

See? When presented with statistical evidence that Black (or Goga) help the team you’re very quick to refute it or deny it. When the stats show Cole hurts the team, you ignore it again. Go and look at the lineup data and you’ll see that Cole has worse lineup pairings with more players than AB.

I track +/- through the course of the game so I watch as Paolo and Franz correct their numbers with AB and then have them blown out once they’re sharing the court with Cole.

I don’t understand why you’re giving Cole a free pass on everything whilst being prepared to be hyper critical of a rookie. Offense might be where our team struggles but defense is where our team succeeds, and Cole is becoming detrimental to what makes us successful if he continues to be such a high USG player.

[Def Swami]

These last 2 games were a good measuring stick for us. This team has a lot of flaws and Boston exposed them all. The lack of a point guard on this team was really put on blast. Banchero is effectively playing the position most possessions. The Celtics played the Magic the way most teams in the playoffs will. They're going to sag way off on the Magic and take the paint away from them and dare them to beat them from 3. It's not the Magic's game. It got the team out of sorts and led to too many live ball turnovers that the Celtics feasted off of. Wagner needed to be average just to give us a chance, and he couldn't get anything going. He's going to have to hit open 3's at a respectable rate. He's down to 30% on 3's for the season. For us to have any chance in the post-season, he has to be better.

[Def Swami]

Banchero had another "McGrady Game." I'm coining this as a new term around here. A McGrady Game is a game where our best player has an outstanding individual performance in a losing effort because no one else could get anything going. This was the 2nd time I was reminded of a McGrady Game this year. The first was when he had 42 points in Cleveland. I love that Banchero looks like he can just have an out of body experience at times, but I do hope the supporting cast can come along for the ride and limit some of these McGrady Games.

[bigdogdylan5]

People are going to panic and lose their heads because a lot of people got their expectations too high. I expect theses meltdowns to continue through this rough December and January with people concluding that we suck as we work back down to 500. People need to come back down to earth with expectations. This start to this season has been tremendous and it allows us to be in great position with a cushion. If we can just get through this brutal December and January and be at 500 or even just a couple games under it’s puts us in great position as our schedule really softens in mid February to March. If we’re a 500 team everyone would have said that was a tremendous success as we would be in the playoffs and fighting for 6. 6 is definitely obtainable with our season start. This team is really ahead of schedule and has alot to learn lets keep that in mind.

[IllMagic04]

How many times have you acknowledged Cole is porous defensively?

Considering our defense has been great pretty much 3/4ths of this season, I haven't had many complaints at all from defense from anybody outside of Moe (who I just want to rebound and when he doesn't, I get annoyed) and selective players where players fall asleep. If Cole is trying but is getting switched on to people bigger than him, why would I blame that on him? That makes no sense. Him forcing **** and turning it over is 10x more annoying because I expect better offensive play. I'm not going to get mad at Paolo for not hitting a lot of threes or Franz for not having rebounding well, because I don't necessarily expect those things from them.

Why wouldn’t you attribute his poor defense to him? Why would you credit him with good defense when the 2nd unit carries him on that wide, but when he is individually getting blown by and scored over you want to put that blame on Moe. I think the standards you hold Moe to should be at least the same for Cole, but ultimately more because he has a much larger role and usage.

You’re very prepared to bench rookie AB but you’re giving Cole a free pass on all his mistakes when he’s experienced and high USG. I mean, if you want to talk about biases what about yourself and other posters who wanted to bench Black and Goga during our winning streak? But now that we’re losing games we couldn’t possibly start looking critically at our highest USG guys.

Where did I say this? I'm on record saying I want Goga playing over Moe, I also said that Fultz and WCJ do not harm the team.. and that the usage will have to change when they come back to get Paolo more involved on ball. All I've said is that because we're on a winning streak doesn't mean that starting lineup the answer and that our bench was the real difference maker, and I am doubling down on that. The same argument was made last year when Bol Bol was part of our winning streak and people wanted to trade WCJ. To me, it's a shallow way of looking at success of the team and team building. "Team was on a winning streak? Oh, this lineup can never be changed! Trade the guys that aren't involved in it!" - and predictably, people are starting to question what the best lineup is now because stats are showing that our starting lineup is not our strength. It wasn't with Fultz and WCJ either to be fair, but having more bodies out there is a good problem to have.

Again, the story of tonight was that when Anthony Black was on the court we outscored Boston by 17 points. When Cole was on the court we were outscored by 14 points. The team found a way to negate Franz’s cold night when Black was in but they couldn’t when Cole was in. You simply don’t have a defensible position in tonight’s game.

Single game +/- is probably the most unreliable "stat" there is. Not saying AB was doing nothing, but players that theoretically do nothing in all the minutes they had with certain lineups and end up with the highest +/-. To me, if there were 3-4 players with a similar +/- (in competitive minutes), that is better to gauge because it showed specific lineups working and we should've played them more.

See? When presented with statistical evidence that Black (or Goga) help the team you’re very quick to refute it or deny it. When the stats show Cole hurts the team, you ignore it again. Go and look at the lineup data and you’ll see that Cole has worse lineup pairings with more players than AB.

I track +/- through the course of the game so I watch as Paolo and Franz correct their numbers with AB and then have them blown out once they’re sharing the court with Cole.

I don’t understand why you’re giving Cole a free pass on everything whilst being prepared to be hyper critical of a rookie. Offense might be where our team struggles but defense is where our team succeeds, and Cole is becoming detrimental to what makes us successful if he continues to be such a high USG player.

So a question I asked earlier Im going to ask you. Cole has been getting 6th man minutes all year. Our defense has been great most of the year. Is Cole a improved defender who had a bad day today or is he bad and the team defense is so great its hides his horric defensive play

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[SOUL]

I don’t understand why you’re giving Cole a free pass on everything whilst being prepared to be hyper critical of a rookie. Offense might be where our team struggles but defense is where our team succeeds, and Cole is becoming detrimental to what makes us successful if he continues to be such a high USG player.

What is "everything?" He has shot over 47% in all games but two this month, is at 40% from three, has only 1 turnover per game - if "everything" is defense, yes, I am not freaking out about a below average defender playing below average defense. I didn't mind if he was not in the lineup tonight because he clearly was not effective on offense, but the REALITY of it is that he's been very good, almost one of the best offensive players off of the bench in the entire NBA. Not someone who has to average 25 points per game to offset his defense - that is exaggeration.



I don't care about counting stats much - different usage rates and AB is a rookie, but there is something to be said that Cole only averages 5 minutes more and has that much more on court statistical impact.



Basically every advanced stat is in Cole's favor, negligible defensive stats at the moment, because once again, rookies are rookies and are not very efficient - AB will be a way better defender than Cole in his prime, but his negative offensive impact on court is actively hurting us (110 vs 118 Orating). This doesn't mean I think he shouldn't play or start in Fultz absence, it's that he is not this savant that unlocks this team offensively or defensively yet. There are flashes, especially in games where he helps with POA defense with Suggs, like the Cavs game.