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NBA4Lyfe wrote:GrandTheftRondo wrote:eyeatoma wrote:Can someone explain why Luka doesn't get any flak for his playoff performance. He has been good historically, but he didn't even make the playoffs last season and he had Kyrie at the end.
Luka has made the WCF and is just 24 years old
how old was harden when he made the wcf in 2015
eyeatoma wrote:Hobo4President wrote:eyeatoma wrote:
Still have not heard anything about last years epic fail.
You asked about his playoff performance.
Right there was none last year lol. He failed to make the playoffs. An MVP candidate last year. He had a similar team to this year, apart from Lively. Good to see them doing well this season, still doesn't excuse last year. If Embiid missed the playoffs people would have roasted him on a spit.
Hussien Fatal wrote:maxpower8888 wrote:Hussien Fatal wrote:
Lol at Giannis and Jokic having much higher PER’s than Embiid at this stage of the season. You have no proof that either one of those players had a PER of 34.5 22 games into the season. Prove it or don’t make silly claims like this. What Embiid is doing is absolutely phenomenal, so please don’t make up lies to limit what Embiid is doing.
There have been threads made about it on this very forum, I'm not willing to search for them. But please don't call me a liar, it's really homerish. It is possible to simply be wrong.
EDIT: Thank god for the internet archive. I looked at this link from 2021-22, Dec 15th.
https://web.archive.org/web/20211215030054/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jokicni01.html
22 games played with a PER of 34.4.
Then for Giannis you can look at this link from the 2019-20 seaaon.
https://web.archive.org/web/20191218000816/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html
27 games played with a PER of 34.6.
As I said before, Embiid's PER will more than likely level off to the 30-32 range by season's end. Still very impressive but not record breaking.
You still lied my guy! You said they had “MUCH HIGHER PER’s” at this stage of the season when Embiid’s PER is higher than Jokic’s at this stage in the season and Giannis’ PER is a whole 1 decimal point higher. None of this qualifies as “MUCH HIGHER” as you claimed.
Hobo4President wrote:eyeatoma wrote:Hobo4President wrote:
You asked about his playoff performance.
Right there was none last year lol. He failed to make the playoffs. An MVP candidate last year. He had a similar team to this year, apart from Lively. Good to see them doing well this season, still doesn't excuse last year. If Embiid missed the playoffs people would have roasted him on a spit.
Depends on the circumstances but yeh I'd agree people would be more prone to attacking Embiid for missing the playoffs than Doncic. I'd probably pin it on a couple reasons.
1. Embiid is generally regarded as a better player
2. Doncic is generally viewed as being surrounded by a worse supporting cast
3. The answer Dallas got for their roster issues is Kyrie, a player many people hate and have no faith in. So it's very easy to say they missed the playoffs because at the trade deadline they got Kyrie.
Hussien Fatal wrote:maxpower8888 wrote:Hussien Fatal wrote:
Lol at Giannis and Jokic having much higher PER’s than Embiid at this stage of the season. You have no proof that either one of those players had a PER of 34.5 22 games into the season. Prove it or don’t make silly claims like this. What Embiid is doing is absolutely phenomenal, so please don’t make up lies to limit what Embiid is doing.
There have been threads made about it on this very forum, I'm not willing to search for them. But please don't call me a liar, it's really homerish. It is possible to simply be wrong.
EDIT: Thank god for the internet archive. I looked at this link from 2021-22, Dec 15th.
https://web.archive.org/web/20211215030054/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jokicni01.html
22 games played with a PER of 34.4.
Then for Giannis you can look at this link from the 2019-20 seaaon.
https://web.archive.org/web/20191218000816/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html
27 games played with a PER of 34.6.
As I said before, Embiid's PER will more than likely level off to the 30-32 range by season's end. Still very impressive but not record breaking.
You still lied my guy! You said they had “MUCH HIGHER PER’s” at this stage of the season when Embiid’s PER is higher than Jokic’s at this stage in the season and Giannis’ PER is a whole 1 decimal point higher. None of this qualifies as “MUCH HIGHER” as you claimed.
eyeatoma wrote:Hobo4President wrote:eyeatoma wrote:
Still have not heard anything about last years epic fail.
You asked about his playoff performance.
Right there was none last year lol. He failed to make the playoffs. An MVP candidate last year. He had a similar team to this year, apart from Lively. Good to see them doing well this season, still doesn't excuse last year. If Embiid missed the playoffs people would have roasted him on a spit.
CobraCommander wrote:bigboi wrote:CobraCommander wrote:Once he said he would rather have SGA over Giannis I stopped reading…
SGA is in the revolving chair for 4th best player in NBA right now- tonight SGA hit a game winner to beat the NBA champs and took over the seat as the 4th best player on earth from Fox. But Luka had a 40 triple double - curry went nuclear in 4th and AntMan went off… but SGA did the damn thing today on both ends and again is in 4th.
But Embiid Again did what he is just doing - rolling out of bed dropping nukes-
And Giannis just shot 7-9 in a blowout - got 22 points in 20 or so minutes and didn’t stat pad against DETROIT
But could the MVP actually be Mike Brown because no fox no problem - get 47 from Murray and light the beam on em again???
Neither Fox nor SGA are better than Luka
Per you - fox and SGA are rightfully not conceding that. I don’t know how you come to that conclusion.
I don’t know who is better but nothing is set in stone long term. Last year per the mvp voters SGA was better than Luka - and the year before that Booker was better than Luka....at least for that year.
At one point Giannis was better than Jokic, now not so much.
Luka hasn’t done anything that definitely says he us better or worse than either SGA or fox....they all balling out
Hobo4President wrote:eyeatoma wrote:Hobo4President wrote:
You asked about his playoff performance.
Right there was none last year lol. He failed to make the playoffs. An MVP candidate last year. He had a similar team to this year, apart from Lively. Good to see them doing well this season, still doesn't excuse last year. If Embiid missed the playoffs people would have roasted him on a spit.
Depends on the circumstances but yeh I'd agree people would be more prone to attacking Embiid for missing the playoffs than Doncic. I'd probably pin it on a couple reasons.
1. Embiid is generally regarded as a better player
maxpower8888 wrote:Hussien Fatal wrote:maxpower8888 wrote:
There have been threads made about it on this very forum, I'm not willing to search for them. But please don't call me a liar, it's really homerish. It is possible to simply be wrong.
EDIT: Thank god for the internet archive. I looked at this link from 2021-22, Dec 15th.
https://web.archive.org/web/20211215030054/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jokicni01.html
22 games played with a PER of 34.4.
Then for Giannis you can look at this link from the 2019-20 seaaon.
https://web.archive.org/web/20191218000816/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html
27 games played with a PER of 34.6.
As I said before, Embiid's PER will more than likely level off to the 30-32 range by season's end. Still very impressive but not record breaking.
You still lied my guy! You said they had “MUCH HIGHER PER’s” at this stage of the season when Embiid’s PER is higher than Jokic’s at this stage in the season and Giannis’ PER is a whole 1 decimal point higher. None of this qualifies as “MUCH HIGHER” as you claimed.
You're just nitpicking, the point was always that Embiid's PER will level off. As I said before, let's revisit this discussion in March with a larger sample size of games. You (or some other poster) called Embiid's current PER the highest in history, which as I showed you is false. IF he sustains it, then yes it will be the highest in history but the current PER narrative reeks of desperation.
eyeatoma wrote:Hobo4President wrote:eyeatoma wrote:
Still have not heard anything about last years epic fail.
You asked about his playoff performance.
Right there was none last year lol. He failed to make the playoffs. An MVP candidate last year. He had a similar team to this year, apart from Lively. Good to see them doing well this season, still doesn't excuse last year. If Embiid missed the playoffs people would have roasted him on a spit.
Hussien Fatal wrote:maxpower8888 wrote:Hussien Fatal wrote:
Embiid could easily maintain his record breaking PER considering he usually starts the season off slow, while annually he finishes the season strong. Last season he finished so strong it won him the award. Your best bet is that midway through the season he levels off but I certainly wouldn’t bet on him finishing the season on a bad note.
He’s been extremely consistent this entire season so I expect him to maintain this level of consistency. And eventually break the PER record.
eyeatoma wrote:Hobo4President wrote:eyeatoma wrote:
Still have not heard anything about last years epic fail.
You asked about his playoff performance.
Right there was none last year lol. He failed to make the playoffs. An MVP candidate last year. He had a similar team to this year, apart from Lively. Good to see them doing well this season, still doesn't excuse last year. If Embiid missed the playoffs people would have roasted him on a spit.
cupcakesnake wrote:I have Jokic, SGA, and Embiid in their own tier as the most serious MVP candidates.
I feel this based on watching them and thinking about them on the scouting report. No defense can deal with them, they all contribute (to different degrees) to their team's strong defenses, and they have the least holes in their games.
A lot of numbers align with what I'm seeing. This trio is the top 3 in: bball ref's BPM, VORP, Win Shares, PER, EPM (my fave), and thinking basketball's AuPM (augmented +/-).
Other numbers I check that don't entirely agree: DRIP, DARKO, Crafted's BPM, ESPN's RPM
With Shai some numbers love his defense and others don't, so he has the biggest swing out of my group. Jokic and Embiid are basically always up there.
Those other numbers make various cases for: Luka, Haliburton, Curry, Tatum, Giannis, sometimes a little Durant or a fringe case for Lebron and Kawhi.
For me, I find it easier to make a case against those various cases. Luka/Haliburton defense, Curry's team is having a meltdown, Tatum and Lebron don't quite bring that unstoppable defense busting scoring. Kawhi and Durant coast in the midrange a lot and don't break down the defense either. All these players are great, but I feel it's Shai/Jokic/Embiid out there just shattering defenses every night and not taking anything off the table.
zimpy27 wrote:cupcakesnake wrote:I have Jokic, SGA, and Embiid in their own tier as the most serious MVP candidates.
I feel this based on watching them and thinking about them on the scouting report. No defense can deal with them, they all contribute (to different degrees) to their team's strong defenses, and they have the least holes in their games.
A lot of numbers align with what I'm seeing. This trio is the top 3 in: bball ref's BPM, VORP, Win Shares, PER, EPM (my fave), and thinking basketball's AuPM (augmented +/-).
Other numbers I check that don't entirely agree: DRIP, DARKO, Crafted's BPM, ESPN's RPM
With Shai some numbers love his defense and others don't, so he has the biggest swing out of my group. Jokic and Embiid are basically always up there.
Those other numbers make various cases for: Luka, Haliburton, Curry, Tatum, Giannis, sometimes a little Durant or a fringe case for Lebron and Kawhi.
For me, I find it easier to make a case against those various cases. Luka/Haliburton defense, Curry's team is having a meltdown, Tatum and Lebron don't quite bring that unstoppable defense busting scoring. Kawhi and Durant coast in the midrange a lot and don't break down the defense either. All these players are great, but I feel it's Shai/Jokic/Embiid out there just shattering defenses every night and not taking anything off the table.
If I completely ignore playoffs or history and think solely about this regular season then it's hard not to give it to Embiid..
I know it doesn't really work like that but it's interesting because it technically should
cupcakesnake wrote:zimpy27 wrote:cupcakesnake wrote:I have Jokic, SGA, and Embiid in their own tier as the most serious MVP candidates.
I feel this based on watching them and thinking about them on the scouting report. No defense can deal with them, they all contribute (to different degrees) to their team's strong defenses, and they have the least holes in their games.
A lot of numbers align with what I'm seeing. This trio is the top 3 in: bball ref's BPM, VORP, Win Shares, PER, EPM (my fave), and thinking basketball's AuPM (augmented +/-).
Other numbers I check that don't entirely agree: DRIP, DARKO, Crafted's BPM, ESPN's RPM
With Shai some numbers love his defense and others don't, so he has the biggest swing out of my group. Jokic and Embiid are basically always up there.
Those other numbers make various cases for: Luka, Haliburton, Curry, Tatum, Giannis, sometimes a little Durant or a fringe case for Lebron and Kawhi.
For me, I find it easier to make a case against those various cases. Luka/Haliburton defense, Curry's team is having a meltdown, Tatum and Lebron don't quite bring that unstoppable defense busting scoring. Kawhi and Durant coast in the midrange a lot and don't break down the defense either. All these players are great, but I feel it's Shai/Jokic/Embiid out there just shattering defenses every night and not taking anything off the table.
If I completely ignore playoffs or history and think solely about this regular season then it's hard not to give it to Embiid..
I know it doesn't really work like that but it's interesting because it technically should
I'm sort of using Shai as my ticket to avoid the hell out of any Embiid/Jokic discourse. I'm a 3rd party voter lol.
It's kinda tough. I was completely against Embiid's MVP last year. I felt it was a mistake. I had him at #2 and thought he was an MVP-level player, but I felt strongly that Jokic was simply on a whole other level on offense, and Embiid wasnt creating a big enough defensive gap with his inconsistent play on that end. I thought Embiid's scoring was super impressive, but ultimately a bit gimicky in that it wasn't a great offensive strategy. I rarely care about the player who is piling up points, semi-meaninglessly (from Wilt to AI to Kobe to Russ, in certain seasons for each). Defenses were always going to throw the kitchen sink at Embiid in the playoffs and that offensive style was going to suffer for it. But Embiid did win and not too many people feel good about it in hindsight.
But this year, I'm totally for Embiid's MVP candidacy. He has to keep up the defensive effort, but he's also a much more interesting offensive player now that he spends more time in the move, and is more integrated to the team's system of movements and handoffs. Roving, passing Embiid (imo) is a much more resilient offensive style that is going to keep being trouble in the playoffs. You can guard Embiid's scoring amidst a blur of dribble handoffs. He's a constant threat at the same time as his team being a constant threat. Last year it felt like the team and Embiid had to take turns (kind of like Raptors Kawhi, but the Sixers didn't have that crazy defense).
I've always prefered the award go to the best player who had the best season, and the politicking last season bothered me. This year Embiid is more deserving than ever. The feelings are complicated. I still hate that he won it last year so that part of my brain would hate him becoming a 2x MVP. But I'd vote for him this year!