Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
If peak Duncan played exactly the same way he did as in 2003 then he'd essentially be peak Rudy Gobert, with worse shot making ability than pre 2020's Embiid but better passing. So the best player in the league probably.
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
Top 3 with Embiid and Jokic
Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
I feel like Duncan would expose Embiid pretty hard if they had to go h2h.
TD has a chance at averaging 20/20; his peak was 17-18rpg per 100 possessions.
TD has a chance at averaging 20/20; his peak was 17-18rpg per 100 possessions.
Bullets -> Wizards
Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
70sFan wrote:1. Where do you rank Duncan and Jokic all-time in terms of peaks?
Haven't thought about it too hard. Duncan's D was great in his own era. His offense was pretty good, but nothing startling. Jokic has arguably the greatest offensive peak in league history, and while his D isn't amazing, it would look better pre-05. Certainly not Duncan-level, of course, I hasten to add, heh. I would rank Jokic's peak ahead of Duncan's, though.
2. You can do both.
Tough call, I guess. I think Duncan's lack of tier one mobility would make him less effective today than he was in his own time (which is sort of natural for someone who wasn't a freak athlete) with the style changes in the game. His rim deterrence means less. His exploitability on the perimeter means more. He isn't gonna suddenly be a scrub and would no doubt remain an All-D kind of guy, but I doubt he'd be anchoring any ATG defenses in this offensive environment. He was involved in four -7 defenses or better and a -8.8, which was insane, but I don't think he'd be able to replicate that today.
I haven't really put any thought to player-by-player evaluations, though, so I don't know that I can directly answer your question. In his own day, Duncan was an ATG defender. Don't see anyone in today's game whose impact looks too comparable outside of Utah Gobert. But as I said, I don't think he'd be the same defender with the changes, so that matters only so much.
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
pancakes3 wrote:I feel like Duncan would expose Embiid pretty hard if they had to go h2h.
TD has a chance at averaging 20/20; his peak was 17-18rpg per 100 possessions.
Yeah but he wouldn't be getting 100 possessions in today's game. 12 teams averaged 100+ possessions per game last year (and 12 are doing so this season thus far), so he'd likely be getting more like 73-75 possessions per game. So it's more likely be in the 12-14 rpg range.
Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
tsherkin wrote:Haven't thought about it too hard. Duncan's D was great in his own era. His offense was pretty good, but nothing startling. Jokic has arguably the greatest offensive peak in league history, and while his D isn't amazing, it would look better pre-05. Certainly not Duncan-level, of course, I hasten to add, heh. I would rank Jokic's peak ahead of Duncan's, though.
If you don't mind, how does Jokic compare to other all-time great centers peak-wise for you? Do you have anyone over him?
Don't see anyone in today's game whose impact looks too comparable outside of Utah Gobert. But as I said, I don't think he'd be the same defender with the changes, so that matters only so much.
So you have Gobert as better, more mobile defender in space than peak Duncan?
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
I think peak Robinson was better than peak Duncan.
There are not many players playing today better than Duncan. He would be top 5 in current league maybe top 3. He has a case for being better than each of Old LeBron, Embiid, Jokic, Doncic Ja Morant and Curry. Top 3 or top 5
There are not many players playing today better than Duncan. He would be top 5 in current league maybe top 3. He has a case for being better than each of Old LeBron, Embiid, Jokic, Doncic Ja Morant and Curry. Top 3 or top 5
Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
70sFan wrote:If you don't mind, how does Jokic compare to other all-time great centers peak-wise for you? Do you have anyone over him?
Don't have a comprehensive list in mind. In-era, I would have to imagine Russell is comparable for how ridiculous was his defensive impact. I haven't done an in-depth study, but I'd at least look at Kareem, and at 2000 Shaq (though I expect I'd lean Jokic over Shaq). Robinson in regular season is one to look at, though obviously not so much come the PS.
So you have Gobert as better, more mobile defender in space than peak Duncan?
Yep. Duncan was always more about sound decision-making, strong anticipation and not biting on fakes more than he ever was about mobility. Good hands in iso post D. And of course again, he wasn't lacking in mobility for his day, he was just more of a smooth athlete than a particularly explosive one.
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
tsherkin wrote:Don't have a comprehensive list in mind. In-era, I would have to imagine Russell is comparable for how ridiculous was his defensive impact. I haven't done an in-depth study, but I'd at least look at Kareem, and at 2000 Shaq (though I expect I'd lean Jokic over Shaq). Robinson in regular season is one to look at, though obviously not so much come the PS.
Interesting, it seems that I value defense significantly more than you do. It's also interesting you didn't mention Wilt and Hakeem, but you did Robinson.
Yep. Duncan was always more about sound decision-making, strong anticipation and not biting on fakes more than he ever was about mobility. Good hands in iso post D. And of course again, he wasn't lacking in mobility for his day, he was just more of a smooth athlete than a particularly explosive one.
Here we disagree, I think young Duncan was definitely more mobile than Gobert and if anything, Gobert gets the edge in Rin protection. You called Duncan smooth, but not explosive - but I don't think you can call Robert either smooth or explosive (though most people underrate his mobility).
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
70sFan wrote:tsherkin wrote:Don't have a comprehensive list in mind. In-era, I would have to imagine Russell is comparable for how ridiculous was his defensive impact. I haven't done an in-depth study, but I'd at least look at Kareem, and at 2000 Shaq (though I expect I'd lean Jokic over Shaq). Robinson in regular season is one to look at, though obviously not so much come the PS.
Interesting, it seems that I value defense significantly more than you do. It's also interesting you didn't mention Wilt and Hakeem, but you did Robinson.
I literally started with the fact that I don't have a comprehensive list, man; don't overthink it.
Here we disagree, I think young Duncan was definitely more mobile than Gobert and if anything, Gobert gets the edge in Rin protection. You called Duncan smooth, but not explosive - but I don't think you can call Robert either smooth or explosive (though most people underrate his mobility).
Yeah, I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on their relative mobility, that's fine.
Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
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Re: Where would Peak Tim Duncan rank today?
The vast majority of players from previous eras probably wouldn't be as effective today if you plucked them from their peak and dropped them into December 2023 instantaneously. Same way Jokic wouldn't be as effective in 2002 if you told him to run to the low post and isolate against Duncan, KG and Rasheed Wallace every play while everyone else stood around inside the three point line.
Purely from a talent perspective, the early 2000s version of Duncan with two working legs is easily a Top 3 player in the game.
Purely from a talent perspective, the early 2000s version of Duncan with two working legs is easily a Top 3 player in the game.