RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Paul Arizin)

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RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Paul Arizin) 

Post#1 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:50 pm

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:
AEnigma
Ambrose
ceilng raiser
ceoofkobefans
Clyde Frazier
Colbinii
cupcakesnake
Doctor MJ
Dooley
DQuinn1575
Dr Positivity
DraymondGold
Dutchball97
f4p
falcolombardi
Fundamentals21
Gibson22
HeartBreakKid
homecourtloss
iggymcfrack
LA Bird
JimmyFromNz
Joao Saraiva
lessthanjake
Lou Fan
Moonbeam
Narigo
OhayoKD
OldSchoolNoBull
penbeast0
Rishkar
rk2023
Samurai
ShaqAttac
Taj FTW
Tim Lehrbach
trelos6
trex_8063
ty 4191
WintaSoldier1
ZeppelinPage


Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Paul Arizin
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Dave Cowens
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Pau Gasol
Image

George Gervin
Image

Nate Thurmond
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As requested, here's the current list so far along with the historical spreadsheet of previous projects:

Current List
Historical Spreadsheet
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#2 » by AEnigma » Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:05 pm

VOTE: Dave Cowens
Alternate: George Gervin
NOMINATE: Isiah Thomas
AltNom: Alonzo Mourning

AEnigma wrote:I continue to be confused by the lack of support for Cowens. We have seen titles for Barry and Gilmore give them a relatively secure standing, and I think it is difficult to argue against Cowens as the top player on the 1976 Celtics even if people are split on him versus Havlicek in 1974. His impact is clear, consistently showcasing twenty-win lift on a Celtics team that otherwise looked mediocre (when contending) to bad (when not) without Cowens. And he is very much a sort of precursor to Draymond, nominated several rounds ago, in how he was a somewhat undersized defensive anchor frequently taking a lead playmaking role to make use of his team’s strong off-ball wings.

Those who read my posts toward the end of the Peaks Project have already seen me post this article, but for those who have not, this is one of my favourite accounts of him:
Spoiler:
Cort Reynolds wrote: He may not have been named MVP of the NBA Finals in 1974 or 1976, but undersized Hall of Fame Boston center Dave Cowens was the key force in winning both clinching games of those memorable championship series for the Celtics.

In the 1970's no one played harder for Boston, or anyone else for that matter, with apologies to Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Lier and Dave DeBusschere, than the fiery 6-8.5 redhead.

In game seven of the epic 1974 NBA Finals, the Celtics faced the tall task of beating Milwaukee on the road. Buck center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was in his youthful prime and enjoyed nearly a six-inch height advantage - which was probably close to a foot when reach is included - over Cowens.



The Bucks had forced a seventh game by winning a double overtime classic in Boston just two days earlier, when Jabbar's long running baseline hook over Celtic backup center Hank Finkel gave Milwaukee a see-saw 102-101 victory.

Cowens had fouled out earlier in overtime, or the outcome may well have been different, with the Celtics likely celebrating title number 12 at home.

John Havlicek had traded baskets with the 7-2 Jabbar throughout the final extra session, scoring nine of his 36 points in the second OT, but Kareem got the last shot in.

Yet a hustling play by Cowens that came to epitomize his career happened late in that classic sixth contest. Dave switched off on a pick defensively to cover Robertson, then used his quick hands to poke the ball away from the Hall of Famer.

The speedy center then out-sprinted the 6-5 guard for the loose ball, which rolled into the backcourt. Cowens dove for the ball and slid with it near the sidelines while the loose leather bobbled in and out of his arms. Oscar trailed the play and never left his feet, almost in disbelief at the bigger man's reckless dive.

Cowens left a sweat streak about 10 feet long on the old Garden parquet, probably along with some skin. While the Bucks argued that he never had possession of the ball, the referees correctly ruled that the 24-second clock had nevertheless run out to give Boston the ball.

Not long after, Cowens fouled out with just 13 points on five of 19 shooting, and his absence contributed to the series-tying Buck win. Determined to redeem himself, the proud Celtic star came out firing in game seven.

Boston came up with a new strategy to aid Dave. The Boston braintrust decided to pressure the aging Robertson hard with defensive ace Don Chaney while he brought the ball upcourt.

And then once Milwaukee was into its halfcourt offense, coach Tom Heinsohn had Paul Silas, Havlicek and others also double down and help while Cowens fronted and battled Jabbar for position.

After he was told about the change in defensive strategy, Dave would relate years later in an interview that he felt like saying, "Yes! I am finally going to get some help on this guy."

After having the redhead go one-on-one for six games with the much bigger man who was the total focal point of their offense, Jabbar had averaged almost 34 points per game, so the Celtic brass felt it had to try something.

By not having to expend as much energy defending the 7-2 Jabbar alone, it seemed as if Cowens had been unchained and energized for the decisive contest.

On offense, the muscular Cowens used his superior speed and quickness to take the slower Jabbar out on the floor and drive by him, taking advantage of Kareem's relative lack of lateral quickness.

The high-leaping, aggressive Cowens won the opening jump over Jabbar and tapped it it to Havlicek, who fed a cutting Chaney perfectly for a layup that set an immediate, positive tone in the contest for the Celtics.

As time ran out in the first period, Dave bombed a 25-footer from the right side at the buzzer that went straight in to give Boston a 22-20 lead.

The Celtics lengthened the lead late in the half as their defense stymied Jabbar and Robertson. Dave triggered the vaunted Celtic fast break with a defensive rebound and airborne outlet pass that led to a 16-footer by Don Nelson.

Shortly afterward, Cowens nailed consecutive foul line jumpers that gave the visitors a 53-40 intermission edge. Their defensive strategy, cooked up between games six and seven by Celtic patriarch Red Auerbach, Heinsohn and the legendary Bob Cousy, was working almost to perfection.

Robertson, who had played for Cousy in Cincinnati before their falling out led to the Big O's trade to Milwaukee, was hounded into perhaps the worst playoff game of his career at a very inopportune time.

If nothing else, the all-court pressure put on by the quicker Celtics rushed the Bucks and took vital seconds off the shot clock, forcing hurried decisions and field goal tries. With veteran leader and playmaker Robertson flustered, the Buck offense floundered.

As a result, scoring machine Jabbar was amazingly held without a single point in the entire second stanza and for half of the third period. This was a major drought when one realizes that Kareem came into game seven averaging his number per outing in the 1974 playoffs (33).



At the other end, Boston closed the door with a clever bit of body control and quick reactions. Cowens missed a half hook in the lane that richocheted off Jabbar's hands to a nearly-prone Westphal, who was just getting up off the hardwood after being floored while setting a screen.

Paul then hung in the air as he looked to shoot a short jumper over the looming 7-2 Buck center. But at the last second, he double-clutched and instead tossed a beautifully improvised short alley-oop pass to Cowens past Jabbar. Dave caught the ball in the air on the right side of the lane and cleverly kissed it in off glass before Kareem could recover. That was the final nail in the Milwaukee coffin.



Havlicek, who enjoyed a great series, was named Finals MVP even though he tallied a modest 16 points on six of 20 shooting in the decisive contest.

His second fourth quarter three-point play on a foul line jumper as he was hit in the stomach capped a decisive 11-0 spurt that put the game well out of reach, 98-79.

But the game seven MVP was definitely Big Red. The final box score showed Cowens with game-high totals of 28 points and 14 rebounds, compared to 26 and 13 for Jabbar.

Yet the considerable numbers did not show his great intangible contribution, as well. Or how much energy the fiery redhead had supplied his team. Nor how his defense had helped Kareem wear down and fade. He sank just six of 11 free throws in the game and went scoreless for over a third of the game in the crucial middle section when Boston took command.

Or how Cowens had ignited the deadly Celtic transition game with his defensive rebounding and quick outlet bullets, often firing his passes in midair while coming down with the carom.



Due in large part to the scrambling defensive strategy of Boston, Jabbar only took 21 shots in the decisive seventh contest, six below his series average for attempts to that point.

He also converted only 10 field goals after making 14.5 baskets per contest over the first six games - well below his 54 percent shooting accuracy to that point in the title series.



The grueling style of play that the speedy 1970's Celtics employed, in concert with a short bench and going deep into the playoffs each year (and thus having shorter off-seasons), had started to take a toll on the club. Plus, team captain Havlicek and sixth man Don Nelson were each 36.

In 1976, a grizzled Boston squad fought its way to the Finals despite a foot injury to Havlicek. It was the 13th Celtic championship series appearance in 20 years, and the last before the Larry Bird era.



It was Cowens who took over and scored seven points in a clutch 9-4 Celtic spurt that clinched the crown.

Despite being plagued with five fouls, the redhead gambled and came up with the biggest play of the game. As Adams drove along the right side of the lane, Dave dangerously reached in and poked the ball away from the Rookie of the Year, lunging to tip the loose sphere away from Adams.

He then snatched up the loose ball and dribbled, or more accurately roared, 80 feet upcourt at top speed on a 2 on 1 fast break, a runaway red-headed center locomotive.

As he approached the basket, the Celtic center crossed over to the right side and gave a slight head fake to freeze defender Heard. Dave then laid in a twisting backhanded layup over his shoulder while being fouled. He cashed in the free throw to give Boston a 71-67 lead and a huge momentum swing.

After a Phoenix score, Dave sealed Adams outside the low block and took a perfectly timed top-side feed from Charlie Scott before converting a right-handed layin for a 73-69 advantage.

Cowens then forced a bad miss by Adams by hotly contesting his 15-footer. Adams later canned two foul shots to cut the lead back to two. Yet Havlicek swished a clutch 18-footer from the left wing to make it 75-71.

After a Westphal miss, Dave took an entry pass and spun quickly along the right baseline with his trademark move past Adams for a pretty layup. The pet move gave Boston a little breathing room with a 77-71 margin at the 3:29 mark.

White banked in a tough right side runner and added a free throw to stretch the lead to nine, and it was all over but the shouting as Boston ultimately held on to win, 87-80.

After the final buzzer sounded, a tired Cowens hugged retiring teammate Nelson as they strode off the court as champions for the last time. For Nellie, it was a satisfying fifth ring after being released by the Lakers over a decade earlier.

With White struggling and Hondo hurt, it was clearly the clutch late offensive burst from Cowens that capped banner number 13. His aggressive, all-out defense also led to a drought of over five minutes without a basket for the Suns down the stretch.

Even though Dave scored 21 points in the decisive win, paced the defense and led all players in rebounds during the series while averaging 20.5 ppg, teammate JoJo White (21.7 ppg) was named Finals MVP.

Yet in true Cowens fashion, Dave probably didn't care that much, as long as Boston won. He was simply about winning, an undersized center who won on great athleticism (strength, speed, quickness and jumping ability), high basketball intelligence, skill, and a burning desire as bright as his red mane.

"There is no player with greater desire than Dave Cowens," said CBS commentator and fiery Hall of Famer Rick Barry during the 1976 Finals.

A powerful leaper, Cowens frequently won jump balls against much taller centers like Jabbar and an older Chamberlain, and used great positioning to frustrate Kareem and occasionally block his shots as well by forcing him to turn back to his right shoulder, away from his patented hook.

Back then a center jump ball was held at the start of each quarter, and if that rule seems antiquated, consider that the original rules up through the 1930's required that there be a center jump after every basket. So each quarter jump ball could be a key extra possession gained.

As Havlicek, who played the first seven seasons of his career with the great Bill Russell and then his final eight with Cowens, the 1970-71 co-Rookie of the Year, once said - "no one ever did more for the Celtics than Dave Cowens."

In the post-game six locker room TV interviews with CBS, Havlicek reinforced this claim. "We were able to keep Dave on the floor (not foul out), and that made the difference," said Hondo.

Unfortunately, Dave's all-out style and annual deep playoff runs eventually contributed to his body breaking down by the time he reached his early 30's.



Heinsohn, who after the death of Red Auerbach assumed the mantel of Mr. Celtic after 50-plus years as star player, championship coach and team announcer, called his 1970's Boston teams "the quickest of all Celtic clubs."

As such he designed a revolutionary point center/forward type of up-tempo offense to take advantage of the extraordinary blend of skills, athleticism and desire of his speedy red-headed center and Havlicek, as well as the sharpshooting White.

Those Celtics did not have a true point guard. White, Chaney and Havlicek shared the ballhandling duties, while Cowens often directed the offense from the top of the key with his passing, driving and shooting ability.
As promised, Cowens immediately goes to the top of my ballot.

Gervin has the distinction of sustained functional longevity (a decade of postseason play as his team’s lead scorer) and in-era superstardom, making him my only serious consideration as an alternate among this group.

The next three names on my board are Isiah, Hayes, and Mourning. Isiah seems like the easiest case right now. His passing gets overshadowed by Magic, but I think he has a strong argument as a top three on-ball creator of the 20th century. Captained consistently potent postseason offences, with something like an average +5 relative mark throughout his entire postseason prime. With his overall significance to the sport, I am very comfortable trying to induct him into the top 60 — and for my personal list, he has been a mainstay at #50.

For my alternate nomination, Mourning at least has LA Bird’s active support, plus some passive notes of appreciation from a few others. I will vote him here for now, but Hayes was clearly more significant to the league and dwarfs Mourning by any longevity measure.

Others for eventual consideration are Mutombo, Parish, and Paul George (would be on my ballot already had he not — like Thurmond — missed three prime postseasons because of injury).
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#3 » by trex_8063 » Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:22 pm

Induction Vote: Pau Gasol
Finally! I think we're way overdue to have him eligible.

I find it hard to believe that a guy who:
*had a mostly-durable 18-year career (ALL 18 years at least fair/useful/playable), peaking as an All-NBA level player;
**was probably at least a borderline or fringe All-Star level player (like at least top 25-30 in the league) for literally 15 seasons;
***was Robin on 2 title teams (3-4 contenders);
****is 32nd all-time in career rs WS (tied for 43rd all-time in playoffs), and 30th since 1973 in rs VORP (38th in playoffs).....

.....took until the mid-50s to even get on the ballot.
The only guys ahead of him in rs WS are Dan Issel (weaker era [some in ABA], and notably weak defensive guy), and the guy I'm nominating [Robert Parish]. And there are only six guys not yet inducted ahead of him in playoff WS (one of them is Robert Horry, fwiw; another is Horace Grant, and another is Al Horford......three guys for whom I think most would agree have no case above Pau).
The ONLY guy ahead of him in VORP [since 1973]---barely, by just 0.4---is Vince Carter. There are only four guys not yet inducted ahead of him in career playoff VORP (and again, one of them is Robert Horry; another is Horford).

McHale's inducted at #48, iirc, though I have a hard time making the case [to myself] for McHale > Pau, given Pau's superior passing, turnover economy, rebounding, and meaningful longevity (all occurring in what is likely a marginally better league, too). Similar individual accolades and team accomplishments to McHale, as well.
I hope Pau doesn't have long to wait to be inducted.


Alternate vote: George Gervin
One of the best pure scorers of his generation, and at his best he seems pretty playoff resilient ('78 was a helluva run).
I'm also of the suspicion that his defense might not have been quite as bad as advertised during his early years. It may sound silly to some, though I'll admit I say this based upon box inputs. However, I find it hard to believe that a wing averaging 3.8 stl + blk/100 possessions from '74 to '78 [peaking at 4.2-->nearly prime DWade territory] while NOT committing a terrible excess of fouls can be all bad defensively.



For purposes of any potential run-off, I rank them Gasol > Gervin > Thurmond > (Cowens > Arizin). Could see flip-flopping Cowens and Arizin, but for now leaning toward Cowens. Era considerations simply hurt Arizin too much for me; I still feel we're early on him. And even with giving an allowance for military service, his longevity leans toward weak against everyone in this field except Cowens.



NOMINATION: Robert Parish
A longevity giant who shows signs of significant defensive impact very early in his career (and perhaps underrated on that end through much of his early prime), even though he came to be known as more of a scorer later.
This was a guy who was very productive WELL into his mid [or even late] 30s. In '89, when Bird missed the whole year, it was Parish more so than McHale who stepped up his output, and with no relevant drop in his overall efficiency.

He played more rs games than anyone in this game's history, and did so with a career PER of 19.2, .154 WS/48, +1.5 BPM, and a +9 net rating.


Alternate nomination: Isiah Thomas
Had made some arguments/discussion about him previously. Will try to resurrect that, copy/paste or whatever later.

I think Chauncey Billups also needs some talk at this point (could see switching to him over Isiah, in fact). Elvin Hayes (huge career, big defensive impact, key cog in a title team) deserves some traction at this point, too, imo.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#4 » by penbeast0 » Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:48 pm

Weak group of nominated players. Bobby Jones to me was clearly better than Gervin, Gervin entered the league two years earlier but it was Jones that immediately became the best player on the best RS team in the ABA, for 2 years in a row. Then they moved to the NBA, Denver continued to do well. They traded him to Philly and he was outstanding again, though in lesser minutes. SImilar to Cowens in that he was all over the floor but not close as a rebounder; still he is efficient where Cowens is inefficient and generates steals like a top wing. He's up there with Thurmond defensively (not close as a man defender but better as a help defenderplus great positioning and BBIQ) and in another league offensively where he is a low volume but extremely high efficiency player with really good passing for a big. Clearly better than Pau defensively, mixed bag offensively, Pau has a large minutes advantage. Arizin was the best of his day and I'm moving him ahead of Thurmond who I went back and watched film on and I came away less impressed than I thought I would be.

Vote: Paul Arizin Very hesitant with this but he's the only one who was a force in his day even if his day was a weak one.

Alt Vote: George Gervin Mr. One Dimensional scorer but he was very good at that role, even if not as good as Adrian Dantley who isn't yet nominated.


Nominate: Bobby Jones. More than a decade of straight 1st team All-Defense votes combined with high efficiency, though not high volume scoring, and good playmaking. Not a great rebounder for his position but could play 2-5 at either end. Probably the greatest glue guy in NBA history and in his time where he was the best player on his team (75 and 76 for example), his team was the best in the league both years though they came up short in the playoffs. The most 1st team All-Defense awards, best player on two Nugget teams that had the best record in the NBA (though both came up short in the playoffs), great efficiency without being just an inside scorer, excellent passer, decent offensive rebounder, defensively good at blocking out rather than getting the board, good shot blocker for a forward, good steals, could play up to the 5 or down to the 2, limited minutes because of a physical condition but probably the greatest glue guy in the history of the NBA.

Basically a more consistent version of Draymond Green defensively with efficient offense and a great attitude but in a weaker era. Another take from a previous project:

LA Bird wrote:....

Bobby Jones
Low minutes played is the main reason why Jones isn't ranked higher but I should point out Ginobili played pretty much the same amount of minutes and was voted in 15+ rounds ago. Jones leading Denver to the #1 record in his two ABA seasons (61 win rate) while averaging ~33 minutes a game is rarely mentioned as he seemed to be more remembered for his 6th man role in his later years. Offensively, he has one of the highest career TS% (60.7) and his assists (3.5 per 36), assist/turnover (~1.34) are both great for power forwards. Jones's scoring peaked at 19 ppg per 36 in 81 so it's not like his scoring efficiency was only high because of selective shots and extremely low usage like a DeAndre Jordan. Defensively, Jones is one of the best help defenders of all time and his 10 All-Defensive first team selections is a record that's likely to stand for a very long time. His raw plus minus stats are elite and will probably look even better if we had stats from his Nuggets seasons:

Net on-off
79: +3.4
80: +8.4
81: +10.8
82: +4.2
83: +11.0
84: +7.6
85: +10.4
86: +3.8


Alt Alonzo Mourning: Zo is a better or equivalent scorer than Reed, Cowens, Parish, Mutombo, etc., a shotblocker equal to Mutombo and stronger defensively than Parish, Cowens, or Reed, played more games in his prime, and is probably the best of the 4. I say probably because his passing ability was a major problem especially compared to Cowens or Reed and he never really had the great playoff success in his prime of the others (Mutombo excepted).
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#5 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Dec 23, 2023 2:46 am

We might need 70sFans archives in here, a lot of 70s folk.

Anyone have any game suggestions to watch featuring (prime) Cowens?
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#6 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Dec 23, 2023 2:59 am

My vote is for Paul Arizin - I'm not as high on Paul as I used to be but he still was more or less the best player in the league at one point. He won the title as "the guy" and did so playing very well. Paul was alright as an older player, ups and downs for sure. Very impressive player to look at film compared to his competition, seems like he was way ahead of his time. I'd favor him over the defensive specialist like Thurmond/Cowens.

My alternate nomination is for Dave Cowens – I have Cowens at 52 on my 2020 list, but I do not actually remember why or how (for comparisons sake I have Arizin at 49, and everyone else currently nominated lower ranked than Cowens).

I’d have to look into why I put Cowens over Thurmond, but I suspect it’s because Cowens was a more consistent offensive hub in regards to passing, and playing within himself on offense. However, I think it’s worth considering that Thurmond’s defensive impact might be big enough to dwarf that.

A valuation of just exactly how good of a defender Cowens is seems rather important. He kind of has the Hondo reputation but in the body of a big, it’s difficult to grasp how he impacts the game.


The others

Enigma made a lot of good points with Thurmond which reinstated my faith in voting for him. I’m not sure how he measures up to Cowens. It's possible that I am/we are still underrating his defensive impact.

Pau Gasol - He's a case of a player who was good for a very long time but not truly great. This type of player doesn't score well on my criteria. I'm almost always going to favor a guy who is best in the world over someone who was not in that tier. Arizin and Embiid fit that description, Pau was more of a borderline top ten guy, albeit his skill set was under utilized. (this description was literally the same as before but I just replaced Pau's name with Ray Allen's)

Gervin - I've never been convinced that Gervin was a great player, so hopefully this time around is when it happens. Just seems like such a one dimensional player, and I don't know if his scoring is enough to overcome all those negatives AND be placed above the top 60 best players. I'm incline to think that he likely gave up a lot on defense - I know someone is gonna be like "ACTUALLY HE WASNT THAT BAD and it's like come on...he literally said he doesn't play defense lol.


My nomination is for Willis Reed

My alternate nomination is for Bill Walton
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#7 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Dec 23, 2023 3:00 am

I updated my copypasta but just in case here are some key points I'd like for people to flesh out


Arizin/Cowens/Thurmond are quite close for me and I could be swayed to change the order.

- A greater understanding of Cowen's defensive impact (or at least in comparison to Thurmond's) is the biggest thing
- There's been plenty of talk about Arizin over the last 10 threads, but if anyone wants to tear him down or champion him again that's fine with me

- A break down (positive or negative) for Willis Reed would be neat. Keep in mind I am not longevity oriented so that is why I keep wasting my nomination for him :P
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#8 » by AEnigma » Sat Dec 23, 2023 3:33 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:We might need 70sFans archives in here, a lot of 70s folk.

Anyone have any game suggestions to watch featuring (prime) Cowens?

Admittedly a bit like showing someone 2016 Finals Game Seven to assess Draymond, but here is a beauty.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#9 » by trex_8063 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 3:52 am

AEnigma wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:We might need 70sFans archives in here, a lot of 70s folk.

Anyone have any game suggestions to watch featuring (prime) Cowens?

Admittedly a bit like showing someone 2016 Finals Game Seven to assess Draymond, but here is a beauty.


Isn't that the one where Hondo goes nuts with late-game heroics?
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#10 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:24 am

Vote: Pau Gasol
Best career numbers of anyone left. Incredible playoff riser. Career playoff on/off of +7.7 across 136 playoff games. Strong 1b for the 2010 title to the point that some people thought he was the most valuable Laker.

Nominate: Vince Carter
Best career numbers of anyone not yet nominated. Career playoff BPM of 7.2 through his age 29 season which is basically Steph Curry numbers through the same age.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#11 » by AEnigma » Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:29 am

trex_8063 wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:We might need 70sFans archives in here, a lot of 70s folk.

Anyone have any game suggestions to watch featuring (prime) Cowens?

Admittedly a bit like showing someone 2016 Finals Game Seven to assess Draymond, but here is a beauty.

Isn't that the one where Hondo goes nuts with late-game heroics?

Partly. Those final two games feel like something of an encapsulation of that Celtics era.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#12 » by penbeast0 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:45 am

iggymcfrack wrote:Vote: Pau Gasol
Best career numbers of anyone left. Incredible playoff riser. Career playoff on/off of +7.7 across 136 playoff games. Strong 1b for the 2010 title to the point that some people thought he was the most valuable Laker.

Nominate: Vince Carter
Best career numbers of anyone not yet nominated. Career playoff BPM of 7.2 through his age 29 season which is basically Steph Curry numbers through the same age.


Vince Carter 1541 games, 30.1 min, 4.3 reb, 3.1 assists, 16.7pts, ts% of .536, total points 25,728


Adrian Dantley 955 games, 35.8 min, 5.7 reb, 3.0 assists, 24.3pts, ts% of .617, total points 23,177. Except for sheer longevity, I don't see a case for Carter having the best career numbers. Especially since Vince isn't getting nominated for defense or anything other than scoring.

Like I said, AD is my gateway scorer at the moment.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#13 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:48 am

penbeast0 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:Vote: Pau Gasol
Best career numbers of anyone left. Incredible playoff riser. Career playoff on/off of +7.7 across 136 playoff games. Strong 1b for the 2010 title to the point that some people thought he was the most valuable Laker.

Nominate: Vince Carter
Best career numbers of anyone not yet nominated. Career playoff BPM of 7.2 through his age 29 season which is basically Steph Curry numbers through the same age.


Vince Carter 1541 games, 30.1 min, 4.3 reb, 3.1 assists, 16.7pts, ts% of .536, total points 25,728

Adrian Dantley 955 games, 35.8 min, 5.7 reb, 3.0 assists, 24.3pts, ts% of .617, total points 23,177 in an era with lower league efficiency. Except for longevity, I don't see a case for Carter having the best career numbers. Especially since Vince isn't getting nominated for defense or anything other than scoring.

Like I said, AD is my gateway scorer at the moment.


Maybe Iggy meant prime and not career. I'd imagine Carter's numbers go down a lot because he played 10+ years after his prime had ended.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#14 » by penbeast0 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:53 am

Even in his best 5 year stretch, he's a 22-25 with one year at close to 28 ppg guy with decent but not outstanding efficiency where Dantley had 4 straight years over 30 ppg with a ts% a hundred points higher. People don't realize just how great Dantley was as a pure scorer compared to anyone outside the top 20.

That's 3 years of better than 300 ts Add, one injury year, then another year over 400 ts Add.
Vince's equivalent is one year over 100, 1 over 80, two negative years, and one injury year (using his Toronto years as his best pure statistical era, otherwise he never broke 100 TS Add).
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#15 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:54 am

penbeast0 wrote:Even in his best 5 year stretch, he's a 22-25 ppg guy with decent but not outstanding efficiency where Dantley had 4 straight years over 30 ppg with a ts% a hundred points higher. People don't realize just how great Dantley was as a pure scorer compared to anyone outside the top 20.


Absolutely, though why are you only mentioning scoring? You could make Dantley look better than Larry Bird if you only focused on scoring.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#16 » by penbeast0 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:58 am

What does Vince give you that puts him in the top 100 other than scoring? His defense was not outstanding, his playmaking average, his rebounding average, he was a scorer.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#17 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:05 am

penbeast0 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:Vote: Pau Gasol
Best career numbers of anyone left. Incredible playoff riser. Career playoff on/off of +7.7 across 136 playoff games. Strong 1b for the 2010 title to the point that some people thought he was the most valuable Laker.

Nominate: Vince Carter
Best career numbers of anyone not yet nominated. Career playoff BPM of 7.2 through his age 29 season which is basically Steph Curry numbers through the same age.


Vince Carter 1541 games, 30.1 min, 4.3 reb, 3.1 assists, 16.7pts, ts% of .536, total points 25,728


Adrian Dantley 955 games, 35.8 min, 5.7 reb, 3.0 assists, 24.3pts, ts% of .617, total points 23,177. Except for sheer longevity, I don't see a case for Carter having the best career numbers. Especially since Vince isn't getting nominated for defense or anything other than scoring.

Like I said, AD is my gateway scorer at the moment.


Dantley had a 3.1 BPM in the regular season and a 2.9 BPM in the postseason through 15 seasons. In his first 15 seasons, Carter had a 3.8 BPM in the regular season and postseason. Carter had 1.5x as high of an AST% as Dantley and actually had a higher USG% for his career even with a lot of decline seasons where he wasn’t handling the ball much.

Their raw averages being similar is misleading as pace varied between 99.6 and 106.7 during Dantley’s big minute years while in Carter’s big minute years the pace was between 88.9 and 93.9.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#18 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:07 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:Vote: Pau Gasol
Best career numbers of anyone left. Incredible playoff riser. Career playoff on/off of +7.7 across 136 playoff games. Strong 1b for the 2010 title to the point that some people thought he was the most valuable Laker.

Nominate: Vince Carter
Best career numbers of anyone not yet nominated. Career playoff BPM of 7.2 through his age 29 season which is basically Steph Curry numbers through the same age.


Vince Carter 1541 games, 30.1 min, 4.3 reb, 3.1 assists, 16.7pts, ts% of .536, total points 25,728

Adrian Dantley 955 games, 35.8 min, 5.7 reb, 3.0 assists, 24.3pts, ts% of .617, total points 23,177 in an era with lower league efficiency. Except for longevity, I don't see a case for Carter having the best career numbers. Especially since Vince isn't getting nominated for defense or anything other than scoring.

Like I said, AD is my gateway scorer at the moment.


Maybe Iggy meant prime and not career. I'd imagine Carter's numbers go down a lot because he played 10+ years after his prime had ended.


I meant the cumulative numbers. Vince is 28th all-time in VORP compared to 47th for Dantley.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#19 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:07 am

penbeast0 wrote:What does Vince give you that puts him in the top 100 other than scoring? His defense was not outstanding, his playmaking average, his rebounding average, he was a scorer.


I think he was above average for those things for his position, but you're touching on the comparison here.

Vince Carter was a scorer who was relatively well rounded outside of it. Maybe not exceptional, but he could do other things.

Adrian Dantley was a scorer, and was really poor at other aspects outside of scoring and rebounds (which was related to his scoring, his defensive rebounds are basic).


I think just comparing them as scorers is missing the mark. You're weighing in whether it's worth it to have an optimal scorer who is relatively bad at everything else, or a less optimal scorer but has a more team friendly skill set.


Dantley is more one dimensional even if they are both primarily scorers. Do you feel Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are inferior to Dantley as well?
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/25/2023) 

Post#20 » by OhayoKD » Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:09 am

Vote

1. Thurmond


-> Superstar impact based on what we have
-> Impressive postseason performances with and without Rick Barry
-> Best-in-league calibre defender


Alternate

2. Paul Arizin

-> arguably 2nd best player pre-russell
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL

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