Where would Peak Dirk rank today?

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Where would Peak Dirk rank today?

Best player
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Top 3
12
26%
Top 5
13
28%
Top 10
21
46%
 
Total votes: 46

McBubbles
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#21 » by McBubbles » Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:50 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
McBubbles wrote:Don't know why people feel the need to remind me that Dirk wasn't just a catch and shoot 3 point shooting big, as if that's what I implied.


The irony here is that because Dirk attacked inside the arc, the addition of spacing bigs to play around him would only make him more effective not less as you implied. This is literally why the real world Mavs added LaFrentz to play next to him--very much the modern archtype of a 3-pt shooter with some rim protection. :D


It'd make him more effective but I don't think it'd make him more valuable. I actually deleted part of my comment addressing this.

Dirk has the best mid range shooting season ever on record in 2011 with a disgusting 9 shots a game on 53% shooting. We've seen KD, Kyrie, DeRozan, CP3 etc all coincidentally have by far their career highs in this era despite a lot of them being past their prime. Considering they helped a lost Achilles explosion KD shoot 57% on 7 shots a game, it's not unbelievable to think that Dirk could shoot an unfathomable 60% from the field on 9 or even more attempts in this era.

BUTT, everything else is more effective now anyway. The best slashers in the league went from 70% to 80%. Best post up players from 50% to 60%. So even though he'd get better in an absolute sense, relatively speaking I don't think is value from that area of the floor would increase.
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#22 » by Asianiac_24 » Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:59 pm

He would be worse today because of his pick and roll defense. I’d say he’s top 5-10 behind Jokic/Doncic/Giannis/Embiid for sure, debatable for Curry/Tatum/AD/etc
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#23 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:01 pm

I don't think I disagree with you guys much on his relative value. I have him behind Jokic and then in the mix with that next group down. If you have most or all of them above him, okay seems reasonable enough.
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#24 » by Colbinii » Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:12 pm

I voted Top 3. Clearly behind Embiid/Jokic.
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#25 » by pancakes3 » Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:38 pm

Asianiac_24 wrote:He would be worse today because of his pick and roll defense. I’d say he’s top 5-10 behind Jokic/Doncic/Giannis/Embiid for sure, debatable for Curry/Tatum/AD/etc


This feels right.

Dirk at his peak (no real peak - just HOF good from 2003-2011 straight) was always outside the top 3 but arguable in the top 5, and guys like TD, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Dwight, CP3, and KD would be dominating the top 3 talk.
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#26 » by SportsGuru08 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 8:06 am

I voted Top 10 since it was the lowest option, but truthfully I think he'd be closer to Top 15 due to his atrocious defense. Shooting is basically his only real strength.
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#27 » by tsherkin » Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:56 pm

McBubbles wrote:2.4 layups per game and 2.3 post ups per game with the other 11 of his 16 shot attempts coming entirely from jump shots.

Is this the pedantic hill we're going to die on? The 6'11 four, that stretches the floor, that takes 11 jump shots a game, likely the highest percentage of offence from long range for his position ever, can in absolutely no way be considered a stretch 4 and anyone who thinks otherwise clearly didn't watch his career? Really :lol: ? Ok.


Yeah but a lot of those jumpers were from 10-15 feet, so they provide only so much spacing in the contemporary context, or even in his own career. They certainly reshaped the floor, but when you say "spacing" in basketball, it is nearly universally intended to describe a shooter from the perimeter opening up the interior, wherefore all the pushback.

Dirk did a lot of slashing and pick and roll/pop when he was young, and a lot of post-ups with a foot on the edge of the paint somewhere thereafter, in that elbow/mid/low post type zone. He had a spacing effect, but calling him a "stretch 4" is an overly simplistic way to describe him and it diminishes his total scoring skillset and impact on the defense.

==

As ever, it's tough to evaluate portability into another era. I think if you just took Dirk as he was and shoved him forward without context, he drops off considerably because good efficiency from his era is slightly below to slightly above league average today. Accounting for pace, spacing, improved PnR strategy and all that, it's quite likely that a guy of his skill set would see improved efficiency. Especially younger Dirk, since obviously middies with no foul draw are not the most efficient option, as helpful as they are in a variety of contexts (especially given Dirk's proficiency).

I put top 10. There's a lot of amazing talent in the league right now and I struggle to rank him ahead of Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, Steph and Shai as they are presently performing. He's in that mix with Old Lebron, RS Trae and KD. And this year, honestly, Haliburton is balling out so hard that he's ahead of Dirk at the moment as well. There are 12 player-seasons of 20+ GP and 9+ OBPM in league history, 3 of which are in-progress this season. Lebron and Jokic are the only guys to do it twice; Lebron did it 3x and Jokic is working on his third now. 1990 MJ, 03 McGrady, 2016 Steph, 2019 Harden, that's the type of season we're talking about (whether or not you love OBPM or that particular threshold, etc, etc, those are all amazing seasons).

So yeah, it's tough to look at Dirk at say "top 5" for me at this point in the season. What would probably happen is I'd say that, then he'd get into the playoffs and do something vile during that postseason run and make me look bad while Tex chuckles in the background like Muttley, because he was an incredible postseason performer and a postseason riser, but that's where I'm at right this moment.
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#28 » by tsherkin » Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:56 pm

SportsGuru08 wrote:I voted Top 10 since it was the lowest option, but truthfully I think he'd be closer to Top 15 due to his atrocious defense. Shooting is basically his only real strength.


This... isn't accurate at all. Do you only remember Dirk from like 2016 to retirement?
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#29 » by SportsGuru08 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:18 pm

tsherkin wrote:
SportsGuru08 wrote:I voted Top 10 since it was the lowest option, but truthfully I think he'd be closer to Top 15 due to his atrocious defense. Shooting is basically his only real strength.


This... isn't accurate at all. Do you only remember Dirk from like 2016 to retirement?


Perhaps I should have said "his scoring is his only consistent strength" and he could score in a variety ways.

But aside from that he wasn't particularly great at anything else. His rebounding wasn't that good for his position. He wasn't known for his passing and he was a revolving door on defense throughout his career. It's crazy that the Miami superteam never found a way to exploit that in the 2011 Finals
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#30 » by tsherkin » Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:31 pm

SportsGuru08 wrote:Perhaps I should have said "his scoring is his only consistent strength" and he could score in a variety ways.


It's an odd way to phrase it, given how potent a strength it was. He was a pretty good defensive rebounder. His positioning on the court contributed to his less effective offensive rebounding. His passing was above average for his position. He wasn't an ATG passer for his position, but that's a somewhat pointless criticism.

As for him being a "revolving door on defense," that's also not accurate.
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#31 » by SportsGuru08 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:23 pm

tsherkin wrote:
SportsGuru08 wrote:Perhaps I should have said "his scoring is his only consistent strength" and he could score in a variety ways.


It's an odd way to phrase it, given how potent a strength it was. He was a pretty good defensive rebounder. His positioning on the court contributed to his less effective offensive rebounding. His passing was above average for his position. He wasn't an ATG passer for his position, but that's a somewhat pointless criticism.

As for him being a "revolving door on defense," that's also not accurate.


Well maybe my memory is fuzzy but I can't remember him standing out on defense in any way, either inside or on the perimeter. And especially the latter
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#32 » by tsherkin » Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:30 pm

SportsGuru08 wrote:Well maybe my memory is fuzzy but I can't remember him standing out on defense in any way, either inside or on the perimeter. And especially the latter


Very different topic, that.

Dirk was not a "stand out" defender, for sure. But that's very different from being a "revolving door."
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#33 » by SportsGuru08 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:54 pm

tsherkin wrote:
SportsGuru08 wrote:Well maybe my memory is fuzzy but I can't remember him standing out on defense in any way, either inside or on the perimeter. And especially the latter


Very different topic, that.

Dirk was not a "stand out" defender, for sure. But that's very different from being a "revolving door."


Who would you say is an accurate comparison at that end? Is he better, worse or about on par with Barkley?
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#34 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:28 am

SportsGuru08 wrote:
Who would you say is an accurate comparison at that end? Is he better, worse or about on par with Barkley?


Better, if primarily by virtue of more consistent effort at the stuff which required effort. Young Barkley loved athletic blocks, of course, but he was arse for positioning and such. Dirk wasn't great, but he also wasn't bad. I think he suffered a lot from the 90s and early 2000s "oh no, he's a white European, he can't be athletic or good at defense" stigma of the time.
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#35 » by spree8 » Sun Dec 24, 2023 7:58 am

Wow, Dirk getting criminally disrespected in this poll. I’d put him top 5 only because Joker/Joel/Giannis is tough to crack, but he’s right there.
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Re: Where would Peak Dirk rank today? 

Post#36 » by Matt15 » Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:55 am

spree8 wrote:Wow, Dirk getting criminally disrespected in this poll. I’d put him top 5 only because Joker/Joel/Giannis is tough to crack, but he’s right there.


I agree that Dirk is getting underrated here. People still think that his only strength was that he was a good shooter…

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