More Valuable (or, Greater) Player: Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant?

ty 4191 · Post #1 » by **ty 4191** » Wed Dec 6, 2023 11:12 pm

Same conference, same years (almost exactly), same career length.

Who was better?

Discuss!

Thanks, everyone!!!

MyUniBroDavis · Post #2 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Wed Dec 6, 2023 11:46 pm

Does more valuable = whose greater?

Post #3 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Dec 7, 2023 12:19 am

I think it is pretty clearly Duncan.

Special_Puppy · Post #4 » by **Special_Puppy** » Thu Dec 7, 2023 1:06 am

Typically the box score metrics show that the two had very similar career value, but the more advanced metrics tend to favor Duncan

ty 4191 · Post #5 » by **ty 4191** » Thu Dec 7, 2023 2:00 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Does more valuable = whose greater?

Pick your semantics.

What are your thoughts on who was better?

ty 4191 · Post #6 » by **ty 4191** » Thu Dec 7, 2023 2:00 am

.......

Rishkar · Post #7 » by **Rishkar** » Thu Dec 7, 2023 4:30 am

Well, I have Duncan 5th and Kobe 17th. Duncan was an effective offensive anchor, all time defender, all time leader, and is favored by plus minus style data. What would Kobe's argument even be? Praise from contemporaries and being a model to a younger generation of guards? Playoff elevation? Popularity? I guess you could make a case, but it feels really weak to me

LukaTheGOAT · Post #8 » by **LukaTheGOAT** » Thu Dec 7, 2023 4:32 am

Duncan

He is really is an example of how monstrous defensive impact can triumph terrific offensive players with merely solid defensive impact.

The plus-minus data we have all heavily favors Duncan for peak, prime, and career value. Even taking a different approach that is more box-score focused, which could possibly underestimate the value of Duncan's defense doesn't change that.

In terms of Best #1 NBA draft picks regular season careers (per game, relative to age):

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As good as Kobe was in the PS, I don't think there is good evidence he elevated personnel more than Duncan either, as Duncan had a knack for upping his offensive value too in the 2nd season:

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IlikeSHAIguys · Post #9 » by **IlikeSHAIguys** » Thu Dec 7, 2023 7:24 am

kobe is cooler but duncan is better

LakerLegend · Post #10 » by **LakerLegend** » Sat Dec 9, 2023 1:11 am

2008.

Johnny Tomala · Post #11 » by **Johnny Tomala** » Sat Dec 9, 2023 2:46 am

Duncan 9th all time for me, Kobe 13th.

SNPA · Post #12 » by **SNPA** » Sat Dec 9, 2023 3:22 am

It’s a stretch to argue Kobe > Duncan.

McBubbles · Post #13 » by **McBubbles** » Sun Dec 24, 2023 1:00 am

Rishkar wrote:Well, I have Duncan 5th and Kobe 17th. Duncan was an effective offensive anchor, all time defender, all time leader, and is favored by plus minus style data. What would Kobe's argument even be? Praise from contemporaries and being a model to a younger generation of guards? Playoff elevation? Popularity? I guess you could make a case, but it feels really weak to me

Wot

?

How can you say that Tim Duncan of all people is an effective offensive anchor and then say that you don't know what the argument for Kobe Bean Bryant is over him?

I'm taking Duncan over Kobe personally due to trusting the consistency of his defensive impact more, his superior longevity and his superior intangibles, but twas a very strange way to argue for Duncan over Kobe.

Post #14 » by **tsherkin** » Sun Dec 24, 2023 1:19 am

McBubbles wrote:
Rishkar wrote:Well, I have Duncan 5th and Kobe 17th. Duncan was an effective offensive anchor, all time defender, all time leader, and is favored by plus minus style data. What would Kobe's argument even be? Praise from contemporaries and being a model to a younger generation of guards? Playoff elevation? Popularity? I guess you could make a case, but it feels really weak to me

Wot ?

How can you say that Tim Duncan of all people is an effective offensive anchor and then say that you don't know what the argument for Kobe Bean Bryant is over him lol.

I'm taking Duncan over Kobe personally due to trusting the consistency of his defensive impact more, his superior longevity and his superior intangibles, but twas a very strange way to argue for Duncan over Kobe.

I think it's pretty clear that he's saying Duncan's combination of offense + defense and leadership is greater than anything you could put together for Kobe, which would obviously be an offense-centric argument. You could even come away from this argument noting that Kobe > Duncan on offense and it wouldn't be enough, because the defensive gap and the more amenable leadership style/personality weighs in Duncan's favor.

TheGOATRises007 · Post #15 » by **TheGOATRises007** » Sun Dec 24, 2023 2:49 am

Duncan.

Kobe did have a knack of playing extremely well vs the Spurs though.

Would be interesting if we debated who was better in their h2h series match-up. From what I remember glancing at the numbers, Kobe might edge Duncan in that argument.

Post #16 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sun Dec 24, 2023 6:51 pm

Duncan was better at basketball.
Kobe was the better celebrity.

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One_and_Done · Post #17 » by **One_and_Done** » Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:19 pm

Duncan. Not even close.

One_and_Done · Post #18 » by **One_and_Done** » Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:28 pm

TheGOATRises007 wrote:Duncan.

Kobe did have a knack of playing extremely well vs the Spurs though.

Would be interesting if we debated who was better in their h2h series match-up. From what I remember glancing at the numbers, Kobe might edge Duncan in that argument.

How would it be a 'head to head' match up tho? Duncan and Kobe aren't guarding each other. Duncan is banging with Shaq and K.Malone in the paint in those series, while Kobe is being guarded by bums like Antonio Daniels and Dan Ferry, licking his lips at all the extra attention Shaq is taking from the defence.

I also don't get why 2008 is relevant at all. Duncan wasn't in his prime anymore, and Kobe had a super team. How will the outcome therr tell us anything? Duncan beating the Shaq-Kobe Lakers even once in 03 is incredible enough. Doing it in 99 is notable too.

TheGOATRises007 · Post #19 » by **TheGOATRises007** » Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:43 pm

One_and_Done wrote:
TheGOATRises007 wrote:Duncan.

Kobe did have a knack of playing extremely well vs the Spurs though.

Would be interesting if we debated who was better in their h2h series match-up. From what I remember glancing at the numbers, Kobe might edge Duncan in that argument.

How would it be a 'head to head' match up tho? Duncan and Kobe aren't guarding each other. Duncan is banging with Shaq and K.Malone in the paint in those series, while Kobe is being guarded by bums like Antonio Daniels and Dan Ferry, licking his lips at all the extra attention Shaq is taking from the defence.

I also don't get why 2008 is relevant at all. Duncan wasn't in his prime anymore, and Kobe had a super team. How will the outcome therr tell us anything? Duncan beating the Shaq-Kobe Lakers even once in 03 is incredible enough. Doing it in 99 is notable too.

Today I learned the 2008 Lakers were a super team. Interesting.

One_and_Done · Post #20 » by **One_and_Done** » Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:05 pm

TheGOATRises007 wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
TheGOATRises007 wrote:Duncan.

Kobe did have a knack of playing extremely well vs the Spurs though.

Would be interesting if we debated who was better in their h2h series match-up. From what I remember glancing at the numbers, Kobe might edge Duncan in that argument.

How would it be a 'head to head' match up tho? Duncan and Kobe aren't guarding each other. Duncan is banging with Shaq and K.Malone in the paint in those series, while Kobe is being guarded by bums like Antonio Daniels and Dan Ferry, licking his lips at all the extra attention Shaq is taking from the defence.

I also don't get why 2008 is relevant at all. Duncan wasn't in his prime anymore, and Kobe had a super team. How will the outcome therr tell us anything? Duncan beating the Shaq-Kobe Lakers even once in 03 is incredible enough. Doing it in 99 is notable too.

Today I learned the 2008 Lakers were a super team. Interesting.

They weren't a super team relative to say the 2016 Warriors, but relative to that era they certainly were. Pau was a franchise big man. Odom was an all-star talent. Bynum was seen as an up and coming all-star big in the making. Fisher was a solid starting point guard. Ariza wasn't fully healthy unfortunately, as a top notch 3&D guy he'd have fit perfectly, but they had the underrated Radmanovic also. They had some solid bench pieces too. Add Kobe and that was the most stacked team the league had seen in a while in terms of support cast. Then the next year they added Artest too. That team would have won 50+ games without Kobe.

Unfortunately for the Lakers another super team was formed in 08. Fortunately their best player had a major injury the next season and was never the same.

Who Was Greater?