Wilt Chamberlain fadeaway and fingerroll efficiency

[70sFan]

I think I have collected all Wilt footage I could for now and outside of NBA archives, I don't think I will be able to get anything new in near future, so I decided to share some thoughts about his signature shots - fadeaway and finger roll from the post. There are many misconceptions about them, so I tracked all Wilt shots (for my project) from in-game footage (I didn't include highlights that would overstate the efficiency) and I came up with these numbers:


Prime games (1962-68):

All shots: 157/255 FGA (61.6 FG%)

All fadeaways: 50/109 FGA (45.9 FG%)
From left block: 37/78 FGA (47.4 FG%)
From right block: 6/15 FGA (40.0 FG%)
Non-post fadeaways: 7/16 FGA (43.8 FG%)

All finger rolls: 17/30 FGA (56.7 FG%)
From left block: 5/12 FGA (41.7 FG%)
From right block: 9/14 FGA (64.3 FG%)
Non-post finge rolls: 3/4 FGA (75.0 FG%)

All games (1962-73):

All shots: 243/405 FGA (60.0 FG%)

All fadeaways: 59/130 FGA (45.4 FG%)
From left block: 43/98 FGA (43.9 FG%)
From right block: 6/15 FGA (40.0 FG%)
Non-post fadeaways: 10/17 FGA (58.8 FG%)

All finger rolls: 30/64 FGA (46.9 FG%)
From left block: 6/19 FGA (31.6 FG%)
From right block: 20/37 FGA (54.1 FG%)
Non-post finge rolls: 4/8 FGA (50.0 FG%)

Some quick thoughts:

- my sample overestimate Wilt's efficiency (60% from the field vs ~55% overall),
- Wilt was definitely a more efficient iso scorer in his prime than in LA, especially after injury,
- Wilt's right handed finger roll to the middle from the right block is actually a very effective weapon (more so than most of hook shots),
- despite being a weak shooter overall, it looks like Wilt was a very solid at making fadeaways, some of which were heavily contested.

Tell me what you think and if you have any questions.

Merry Christmas!

[penbeast0]

I don't think Wilt was a bad shooter for a big, quite good for his era. Compare to other bigs of the 60s. His FT shooting was horrific but apparently that was a mental block rather than mechanics. Compared to someone like Jerry West, of course it's a different story but they had very different roles.

[tsherkin]

I think I have collected all Wilt footage I could for now and outside of NBA archives, I don't think I will be able to get anything new in near future, so I decided to share some thoughts about his signature shots - fadeaway and finger roll from the post. There are many misconceptions about them, so I tracked all Wilt shots (for my project) from in-game footage (I didn't include highlights that would overstate the efficiency) and I came up with these numbers:

Great tracking work, as always. Thanks!

[dooki667]

Thanx appreciate your effort buddy

[Doctor MJ]

- Wilt's right handed finger roll to the middle from the right block is actually a very effective weapon (more so than most of hook shots)

My questions here would be:

Should we be comparing finger rolls - which involve having your hand as close to the basket as possible to hook shots - which involve having your hand as far away from the basket in order to prevent blocks?

While I recognize that one can do a finger-roll type floater from pretty far away from the basket, for Wilt this is often described as being what he did instead of dunking the ball, and relative to dunk FG%, these numbers look pretty bad, no?

Of course we can talk about the effect of dunks being effectively verboten and the effect this had on players like Wilt - arguing that with modern norms players like Wilt would only be more efficient - but from the perspective of Wilt choosing to use finesse to prove to people he was more than just Goliath, these finger rolls percentages don't scream "automatic", and thus make me wonder if it's evidence of Wilt shooting his team in the foot so that he could look more skilled.

[tsherkin]

- Wilt's right handed finger roll to the middle from the right block is actually a very effective weapon (more so than most of hook shots)

My questions here would be:

Should we be comparing finger rolls - which involve having your hand as close to the basket as possible to hook shots - which involve having your hand as far away from the basket in order to prevent blocks?

While I recognize that one can do a finger-roll type floater from pretty far away from the basket, for Wilt this is often described as being what he did instead of dunking the ball, and relative to dunk FG%, these numbers look pretty bad, no?

Of course we can talk about the effect of dunks being effectively verboten and the effect this had on players like Wilt - arguing that with modern norms players like Wilt would only be more efficient - but from the perspective of Wilt choosing to use finesse to prove to people he was more than just Goliath, these finger rolls percentages don't scream "automatic", and thus make me wonder if it's evidence of Wilt shooting his team in the foot so that he could look more skilled.

Is it any worse than using a hook shot, though? You can't dunk every time and the finger roll looks better than the fade. Countering to the middle from the right side, moving to a strong-hand finger roll actually starts to look like a good move for him, aesthetic complaints falling away at that point.

[Doctor MJ]

- Wilt's right handed finger roll to the middle from the right block is actually a very effective weapon (more so than most of hook shots)

My questions here would be:

Should we be comparing finger rolls - which involve having your hand as close to the basket as possible to hook shots - which involve having your hand as far away from the basket in order to prevent blocks?

While I recognize that one can do a finger-roll type floater from pretty far away from the basket, for Wilt this is often described as being what he did instead of dunking the ball, and relative to dunk FG%, these numbers look pretty bad, no?

Of course we can talk about the effect of dunks being effectively verboten and the effect this had on players like Wilt - arguing that with modern norms players like Wilt would only be more efficient - but from the perspective of Wilt choosing to use finesse to prove to people he was more than just Goliath, these finger rolls percentages don't scream "automatic", and thus make me wonder if it's evidence of Wilt shooting his team in the foot so that he could look more skilled.

Is it any worse than using a hook shot, though? You can't dunk every time and the finger roll looks better than the fade. Countering to the middle from the right side, moving to a strong-hand finger roll actually starts to look like a good move for him, aesthetic complaints falling away at that point.

Easier to get a hook shot than a finger roll when you’re a big man relying on teammates to get you the ball, no?

If you get to start from the post - even the high post - and you’re able to reach forward toward the basket without anyone blocking your shot, I think you should be looking for a shot that’s a gimmie.

Wilt’s finger rolls have been portrayed as something close to that, and this data seems to be indicate, no?


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[70sFan]

- Wilt's right handed finger roll to the middle from the right block is actually a very effective weapon (more so than most of hook shots)

My questions here would be:

Should we be comparing finger rolls - which involve having your hand as close to the basket as possible to hook shots - which involve having your hand as far away from the basket in order to prevent blocks?

While I recognize that one can do a finger-roll type floater from pretty far away from the basket, for Wilt this is often described as being what he did instead of dunking the ball, and relative to dunk FG%, these numbers look pretty bad, no?

Wilt's finger rolls didn't replace dunks though. Most of these shots came from the similar spots from which Shaq took hooks. The mechanics is different, but these shots were used by the two functionally the same way.

[tsherkin]

Easier to get a hook shot than a finger roll when you’re a big man relying on teammates to get you the ball, no?

If you get to start from the post - even the high post - and you’re able to reach forward toward the basket without anyone blocking your shot, I think you should be looking for a shot that’s a gimmie.

Wilt’s finger rolls have been portrayed as something close to that, and this data seems to be indicate, no?

Are we saying the same thing here?

It sounded initially like you were criticizing his use of the finger roll, but to me, he's making a move into the paint where he wasn't able to get close enough for the dunk, and doing pretty well with it. Moving into the paint from the right side usually leads to a rolling hook from a right-handed player; Wilt seemed to find a way to use his absurd length to get a little closer to the rim and get what appears to be a pretty good shot out of it.

[Doctor MJ]

- Wilt's right handed finger roll to the middle from the right block is actually a very effective weapon (more so than most of hook shots)

My questions here would be:

Should we be comparing finger rolls - which involve having your hand as close to the basket as possible to hook shots - which involve having your hand as far away from the basket in order to prevent blocks?

While I recognize that one can do a finger-roll type floater from pretty far away from the basket, for Wilt this is often described as being what he did instead of dunking the ball, and relative to dunk FG%, these numbers look pretty bad, no?

Wilt's finger rolls didn't replace dunks though. Most of these shots came from the similar spots from which Shaq took hooks. The mechanics is different, but these shots were used by the two functionally the same way.

If these shots are from far enough away, then I would grant that they would be more comparable to a hook shot.

[Doctor MJ]

Easier to get a hook shot than a finger roll when you’re a big man relying on teammates to get you the ball, no?

If you get to start from the post - even the high post - and you’re able to reach forward toward the basket without anyone blocking your shot, I think you should be looking for a shot that’s a gimmie.

Wilt’s finger rolls have been portrayed as something close to that, and this data seems to be indicate, no?

Are we saying the same thing here?

It sounded initially like you were criticizing his use of the finger roll, but to me, he's making a move into the paint where he wasn't able to get close enough for the dunk, and doing pretty well with it. Moving into the paint from the right side usually leads to a rolling hook from a right-handed player; Wilt seemed to find a way to use his absurd length to get a little closer to the rim and get what appears to be a pretty good shot out of it.

I don't think we're saying the same thing here but I might be wrong in all I say.

For the most part the hook shot died when defenders realized they could block it, with the exceptions proving the rule. I don't knock a guy for trying for a finger roll rather than relying on a hook if he doesn't have great effective accuracy with a hook, but I do worry about a player taking pride in finesse on the interior when he has the size to be a bully.

[tsherkin]

I don't think we're saying the same thing here but I might be wrong in all I say.

Okay, just wanted to check! Sometimes, we all get so caught up in a lively debate that we miss that we're on the same side, heh.

For the most part the hook shot died when defenders realized they could block it, with the exceptions proving the rule. I don't knock a guy for trying for a finger roll rather than relying on a hook if he doesn't have great effective accuracy with a hook, but I do worry about a player taking pride in finesse on the interior when he has the size to be a bully.

Sure, we know that the era was a little weird for big guys. It happened to Kareem as well. He turned around and developed his usage of the skyhook into legend, and Wilt did this. It's relevant to note that Wilt never had a season UNDER 106 TS+, and that was his rookie year. Even before his big efficiency jump with his volume drop in 67, he still posted 106, 111, 112, 111, 107 and 113.

Wilt was extremely efficient relative to his in-era peers. In today's game, he wouldn't be taking the 31.4 FGA/g over 47.0 mpg he averaged in that period, and he'd benefit from advanced schemes and spacing quite a lot. We saw even in his own time what a reduction of volume did for his efficiency. 67 and on Wilt averaged 59.2% TS... which would be efficient even today. "Only" around +2% rTS or so, but still, I think the point is made. I don't really believe he sacrificed too much in the way of efficiency relative to how things were officiated at the time. I absolutely believe he caved a bit to social pressure in how he played the game, but it was a fairly significant thing in his day. Enough so that they'd banned dunking during Kareem's UCLA days from 67 to 76 in the NCAA.

Food for thought, anyhow.

[70sFan]

My questions here would be:

Should we be comparing finger rolls - which involve having your hand as close to the basket as possible to hook shots - which involve having your hand as far away from the basket in order to prevent blocks?

While I recognize that one can do a finger-roll type floater from pretty far away from the basket, for Wilt this is often described as being what he did instead of dunking the ball, and relative to dunk FG%, these numbers look pretty bad, no?

Wilt's finger rolls didn't replace dunks though. Most of these shots came from the similar spots from which Shaq took hooks. The mechanics is different, but these shots were used by the two functionally the same way.

If these shots are from far enough away, then I would grant that they would be more comparable to a hook shot.

I don't have the time during Christmas time to provide more details from data I collected, but here is a good example of finger roll taken from the area comparable to Shaq hooks (too far to try to dunk the ball):

This is a normal post move, not a gimmick replacing dunks to look more skilled.

[penbeast0]

- Wilt's right handed finger roll to the middle from the right block is actually a very effective weapon (more so than most of hook shots)

My questions here would be:

Should we be comparing finger rolls - which involve having your hand as close to the basket as possible to hook shots - which involve having your hand as far away from the basket in order to prevent blocks?

While I recognize that one can do a finger-roll type floater from pretty far away from the basket, for Wilt this is often described as being what he did instead of dunking the ball, and relative to dunk FG%, these numbers look pretty bad, no?

Of course we can talk about the effect of dunks being effectively verboten and the effect this had on players like Wilt - arguing that with modern norms players like Wilt would only be more efficient - but from the perspective of Wilt choosing to use finesse to prove to people he was more than just Goliath, these finger rolls percentages don't scream "automatic", and thus make me wonder if it's evidence of Wilt shooting his team in the foot so that he could look more skilled.

It looked like a counter move to me. To stop a hook, you have to overplay the strong side, which can allow moves that go back the other way. I never got the finger roll down but it seems a nice counter when you can't seal the man with a drop step.

[70sFan]

- Wilt's right handed finger roll to the middle from the right block is actually a very effective weapon (more so than most of hook shots)

My questions here would be:

Should we be comparing finger rolls - which involve having your hand as close to the basket as possible to hook shots - which involve having your hand as far away from the basket in order to prevent blocks?

While I recognize that one can do a finger-roll type floater from pretty far away from the basket, for Wilt this is often described as being what he did instead of dunking the ball, and relative to dunk FG%, these numbers look pretty bad, no?

Of course we can talk about the effect of dunks being effectively verboten and the effect this had on players like Wilt - arguing that with modern norms players like Wilt would only be more efficient - but from the perspective of Wilt choosing to use finesse to prove to people he was more than just Goliath, these finger rolls percentages don't scream "automatic", and thus make me wonder if it's evidence of Wilt shooting his team in the foot so that he could look more skilled.

It looked like a counter move to me. To stop a hook, you have to overplay the strong side, which can allow moves that go back the other way. I never got the finger roll down but it seems a nice counter when you can't seal the man with a drop step.

For most players it was, but Wilt used it as the main move to the middle, from both sides of the block. He was much more efficient using this move from the right shoulder than from the left shoulder.

[Heej]

As far as I know Wilt's finger roll WAS his hook for some reason. Dude had severe mental problems so he legit took tougher looking more finesse shots just so people would stop saying he's not skilled. Insane that he was even efficient with it tbh cuz functionally a finger roll from 3-8ft is SIGNIFICANTLY lower EV than a simple jump hook. Fadeaway finger roll is actually nasty work and might make me consider moving Wilt higher in my estimation because with modern training he probably has nasty hooks and floats with both hands

[70sFan]

As far as I know Wilt's finger roll WAS his hook for some reason. Dude had severe mental problems so he legit took tougher looking more finesse shots just so people would stop saying he's not skilled. Insane that he was even efficient with it tbh cuz functionally a finger roll from 3-8ft is SIGNIFICANTLY lower EV than a simple jump hook. Fadeaway finger roll is actually nasty work and might make me consider moving Wilt higher in my estimation because with modern training he probably has nasty hooks and floats with both hands

Wilt took hook shots occasionally, but I have reports noting that his hook wasn't efficient.

It's not like players back then didn't use hooks compared to now, quite the opposite. Basically all the centers from that era relied on some variations of hooks.

Why do you think that would change for Wilt now?

[Heej]

As far as I know Wilt's finger roll WAS his hook for some reason. Dude had severe mental problems so he legit took tougher looking more finesse shots just so people would stop saying he's not skilled. Insane that he was even efficient with it tbh cuz functionally a finger roll from 3-8ft is SIGNIFICANTLY lower EV than a simple jump hook. Fadeaway finger roll is actually nasty work and might make me consider moving Wilt higher in my estimation because with modern training he probably has nasty hooks and floats with both hands

Wilt took hook shots occasionally, but I have reports noting that his hook wasn't efficient.

It's not like players back then didn't use hooks compared to now, quite the opposite. Basically all the centers from that era relied on some variations of hooks.

Why do you think that would change for Wilt now?

Because finger rolls are a dumb shot to try and take in a post up. It's just plain mechanically disadvantaged imo. Wilt's hangups back then were all mental because people used to crap on him for being a brute so he tried to go finesse. Modern ball is just all about optimization now, he'd just have come up with fadeaways and hooks as a post guy now.

Finger rolls introduce a bit too much randomness because of the extra spin required and is why players really only use it for a flashy finish when they're open, or as a last resort during up and unders. For pure buckets you're giving up too many on the margins here and there for that to be your bread and butter imo.

Some guys like Gervin and Curry have uncanny touch and can just make it work no matter what but it's never going to be taught as THE go-to move/finish nowadays. If Jokic NEEDS a bucket he's not gonna just filayyy anyone, he's putting his hard hat on and hitting a hook or straightforward lay

[ty 4191]

I think I have collected all Wilt footage I could for now…

Amazing work, as always from you, 70s!! Merry Christmas!!

Do you have career dunk (tracking data), as well, for Wilt?

[70sFan]

I think I have collected all Wilt footage I could for now…

Amazing work, as always from you, 70s!! Merry Christmas!!

Do you have career dunk (tracking data), as well, for Wilt?

I do, I will provide them within the next few days. What would you like to know in particular?