Wilt Chamberlain fadeaway and fingerroll efficiency

[ty 4191]

I think I have collected all Wilt footage I could for now…

Amazing work, as always from you, 70s!! Merry Christmas!!

Do you have career dunk (tracking data), as well, for Wilt?

I do, I will provide them within the next few days. What would you like to know in particular?

I’d love to know how frequently Wilt dunked, compared to all other centers you’ve done data tracking on. Percentage of dunks as well as total dunks.

Also, how much he dunked early vs mid vs late caree, if possible.

Thank you, Sir! Merry Christmas!

[70sFan]

Because finger rolls are a dumb shot to try and take in a post up. It's just plain mechanically disadvantaged imo.

I don't think it's true because:

1. Finger roll is a very good weapon to counter overplay. It's quicker than left handed hook and it makes you closer to the basket. It also positions you closer to the basket and gives you higher chance of being fouled.

2. Wilt is a physical freak with 7'8 wingspan and very strong upper body. He could take contact on a shooting motion better than most players and that length makes him take close range shots even from the distance where most players are uncomfortable.

Wilt's hangups back then were all mental because people used to crap on him for being a brute so he tried to go finesse. Modern ball is just all about optimization now, he'd just have come up with fadeaways and hooks as a post guy now.

The problem with that idea is that all post players used to take hooks and fadeaways back then and it wasn't seen as being a brute force. Look at Kareem - he was never described as such. Wilt decided to use this shot because he thought it was a more natural release to him than a regular hook.

Another problem is that such finger roll shot is actually a more physical shot than a hook. Wilt went through defenders with that shot, he didn't fade away.

Finger rolls introduce a bit too much randomness because of the extra spin required and is why players really only use it for a flashy finish when they're open, or as a last resort during up and unders. For pure buckets you're giving up too many on the margins here and there for that to be your bread and butter imo.

I don't know, I never mastered the shot because I have too small hands, but as a counter move it was quite reliable to me.

[Heej]

Because finger rolls are a dumb shot to try and take in a post up. It's just plain mechanically disadvantaged imo.

I don't think it's true because:

1. Finger roll is a very good weapon to counter overplay. It's quicker than left handed hook and it makes you closer to the basket. It also positions you closer to the basket and gives you higher chance of being fouled.

2. Wilt is a physical freak with 7'8 wingspan and very strong upper body. He could take contact on a shooting motion better than most players and that length makes him take close range shots even from the distance where most players are uncomfortable.

Wilt's hangups back then were all mental because people used to crap on him for being a brute so he tried to go finesse. Modern ball is just all about optimization now, he'd just have come up with fadeaways and hooks as a post guy now.

The problem with that idea is that all post players used to take hooks and fadeaways back then and it wasn't seen as being a brute force. Look at Kareem - he was never described as such. Wilt decided to use this shot because he thought it was a more natural release to him than a regular hook.

Another problem is that such finger roll shot is actually a more physical shot than a hook. Wilt went through defenders with that shot, he didn't fade away.

Finger rolls introduce a bit too much randomness because of the extra spin required and is why players really only use it for a flashy finish when they're open, or as a last resort during up and unders. For pure buckets you're giving up too many on the margins here and there for that to be your bread and butter imo.

I don't know, I never mastered the shot because I have too small hands, but as a counter move it was quite reliable to me.

1. I disagree. Finger rolls are easier to defend than hooks once it's recognized as a valid counter. As a good counter alone it's very good. When you're at the end of a game and you need a bucket, going for the up and under finger roll counter opens way too much possibility of failure when defenses and defenders are most dialed in. Hooks are more consistent and superior

2. Doesn't change the fact that he used a mechanically disadvantaged shot

3. I'll have to see some sources on Wilt using finger rolls because he thought it was better for him. I can't argue with personal preference

4. Hooks put more shoulder between you and the defender. It's just not arguable between a hook and a finger roll imo as far as which shot in a vacuum is more repeatable in more scenarios.

[SNPA]

Because finger rolls are a dumb shot to try and take in a post up. It's just plain mechanically disadvantaged imo.

I don't think it's true because:

1. Finger roll is a very good weapon to counter overplay. It's quicker than left handed hook and it makes you closer to the basket. It also positions you closer to the basket and gives you higher chance of being fouled.

2. Wilt is a physical freak with 7'8 wingspan and very strong upper body. He could take contact on a shooting motion better than most players and that length makes him take close range shots even from the distance where most players are uncomfortable.

Wilt's hangups back then were all mental because people used to crap on him for being a brute so he tried to go finesse. Modern ball is just all about optimization now, he'd just have come up with fadeaways and hooks as a post guy now.

The problem with that idea is that all post players used to take hooks and fadeaways back then and it wasn't seen as being a brute force. Look at Kareem - he was never described as such. Wilt decided to use this shot because he thought it was a more natural release to him than a regular hook.

Another problem is that such finger roll shot is actually a more physical shot than a hook. Wilt went through defenders with that shot, he didn't fade away.

Finger rolls introduce a bit too much randomness because of the extra spin required and is why players really only use it for a flashy finish when they're open, or as a last resort during up and unders. For pure buckets you're giving up too many on the margins here and there for that to be your bread and butter imo.

I don't know, I never mastered the shot because I have too small hands, but as a counter move it was quite reliable to me.

1. I disagree. Finger rolls are easier to defend than hooks once it's recognized as a valid counter. As a good counter alone it's very good. When you're at the end of a game and you need a bucket, going for the up and under finger roll counter opens way too much possibility of failure when defenses and defenders are most dialed in. Hooks are more consistent and superior

2. Doesn't change the fact that he used a mechanically disadvantaged shot

3. I'll have to see some sources on Wilt using finger rolls because he thought it was better for him. I can't argue with personal preference

4. Hooks put more shoulder between you and the defender. It's just not arguable between a hook and a finger roll imo as far as which shot in a vacuum is more repeatable in more scenarios.

There is percentage and foul rate. I’d be curious to know the foul rate on Wilt’s finger rolls vs hooks. The FR is a bit Harden-like in that he puts the ball out away from his body with an extended arm giving the defender lots of real estate to foul.

Counter though, his FR is fast and he seems to have the ball up and over the head of the defender before he gets much time to react.

[70sFan]

Old Cavsfan post about Wilt finger roll:

I just found some gems on Newspaper archives - I'll be including them in the video - Wilt "developed" this finger roll as a shot in his repertoire half way into his rookie season to bolster what he could do with his fall away jump shot.

This makes sense to me because I've got like 7 full games of Wilt in college - and he uses a "finger roll" release like 4, maybe 5 times in all of them. But none of them look like how he used the shot in the NBA - with the deliberate footwork behind it.

This tells me Wilt had a natural inclination to release the ball when near the basket (but not close enough to dunk) with that roll-in shot. And that once he got to the pro's he decided to really iron it out and give it a set of consistent footwork. It is cited in the newspapers that he decided to develop that shot strictly due to the nature of it being difficult (the word impossible was actually what was used) to block. Now - it's technically not impossible to block, there's a clip of Nate Thurmond blocking it, and one of Jabbar blocking it, but I'm sure it was pretty difficult to block. Much like Jabbar's skyhook has a clip of Wilt and Thurmond blocking it - that doesn't mean it was blocked often.

The reasoning given for why it was "impossible" to block was that Wilt was above the rim upon release and was simply letting the ball basically roll downward - and as the rules indicate you can't touch shots on a downward trajectory. This actually would/should make his up close shots impossible to block. However the game isn't played perfectly like this all the time so the reason the shot isn't impossible to block 100% of the time is - technically an outstanding defensive play could occur where the shot is blocked literally right out of Wilt's fingertips (as with the Nate Thurmond clip). Or, some of the finger rolls Wilt takes from further out than say, 3 feet, require a bit of an arc. On those ones, there is a brief moment where the shot is blockable - those are the plays where Jabbar got his hands on the shot.

[SNPA]

Old Cavsfan post about Wilt finger roll:

I just found some gems on Newspaper archives - I'll be including them in the video - Wilt "developed" this finger roll as a shot in his repertoire half way into his rookie season to bolster what he could do with his fall away jump shot.

This makes sense to me because I've got like 7 full games of Wilt in college - and he uses a "finger roll" release like 4, maybe 5 times in all of them. But none of them look like how he used the shot in the NBA - with the deliberate footwork behind it.

This tells me Wilt had a natural inclination to release the ball when near the basket (but not close enough to dunk) with that roll-in shot. And that once he got to the pro's he decided to really iron it out and give it a set of consistent footwork. It is cited in the newspapers that he decided to develop that shot strictly due to the nature of it being difficult (the word impossible was actually what was used) to block. Now - it's technically not impossible to block, there's a clip of Nate Thurmond blocking it, and one of Jabbar blocking it, but I'm sure it was pretty difficult to block. Much like Jabbar's skyhook has a clip of Wilt and Thurmond blocking it - that doesn't mean it was blocked often.

The reasoning given for why it was "impossible" to block was that Wilt was above the rim upon release and was simply letting the ball basically roll downward - and as the rules indicate you can't touch shots on a downward trajectory. This actually would/should make his up close shots impossible to block. However the game isn't played perfectly like this all the time so the reason the shot isn't impossible to block 100% of the time is - technically an outstanding defensive play could occur where the shot is blocked literally right out of Wilt's fingertips (as with the Nate Thurmond clip). Or, some of the finger rolls Wilt takes from further out than say, 3 feet, require a bit of an arc. On those ones, there is a brief moment where the shot is blockable - those are the plays where Jabbar got his hands on the shot.

Makes sense.

Another element here is release distance between his FR and hook. A hook, coming from the far side of the body, is 3ish feet further from the front of the rim than a FR, coming from the frontside with fully extended arm. Thus from the exact same footing spot on the floor there’s a huge difference in proximity to the rim regarding the release point. This has to help improve the percentage of the FR.

I’m not saying it makes the FR more efficient, I don’t know…I do know releasing the ball 2 ft from the rim should increase the likelihood of it going in vs releasing it 5ft from the rim, regardless of mechanics.

[ty 4191]

I think I have collected all Wilt footage I could for now…

Amazing work, as always from you, 70s!! Merry Christmas!!

Do you have career dunk (tracking data), as well, for Wilt?

I do, I will provide them within the next few days. What would you like to know in particular?

Hi 70sFan!!! Do you have the Wilt dunk data compiled? If so, can you please share it??

Thank you!!!

[70sFan]

Amazing work, as always from you, 70s!! Merry Christmas!!

Do you have career dunk (tracking data), as well, for Wilt?

I do, I will provide them within the next few days. What would you like to know in particular?

Hi 70sFan!!! Do you have the Wilt dunk data compiled? If so, can you please share it??

Thank you!!!

Sorry, I was sick at the beginning of the new year and I forgot about your question. Here is what I gathered:

1962-73 Wilt:

%s of FGA: 18%
%s of FGM: 29%
Total number: 71/73

1962-68 Wilt:

%s of FGA: 14%
%s of FGM: 22%
Total number: 34/36

In comparison to other centers:

1973-82 Gilmore:

%s of FGA: 16%
%s of FGM: 27%
Total number: 61/63

1993-94 Hakeem:

%s of FGA: 6%
%s of FGM: 10%
Total number: 37/42

1971-79 Kareem:

%s of FGA: 7%
%s of FGM: 14%
Total number: 42/43

1979-83 Moses:

%s of FGA: 8%
%s of FGM: 14%
Total number: 48/55

2000-01 Shaq:

%s of FGA: 14% (BBall-Reference: 15% in RS, 17% in PS)
%s of FGM: 23% (BBall-Reference: 26% in RS, 29% in PS)
Total number: 122/129

2002-03 Duncan (still 9 games left from 2003 PS):

%s of FGA: 8% (BBall-Reference: 8% in RS, 7% in PS)
%s of FGM: 14% (BBall-Reference: 14% in RS, 12% in PS)
Total number: 45/50