Where would Peak D-Rob rank today?

[penbeast0]

Why are we comparing Jokic to Robinson?

...

You have a legitimate point to make. All the little cheap shots and snotty remarks don't convince anyone of anything, they just make you look immature. Stick to the subject and quit making comments about other posters.

[ty 4191]

Why are we comparing Jokic to Robinson?

(Comparing Robinson to Jokic in offensively, kcktiny stating unequivocally that Robinson was better offensively at his best than Jokic has been at his).

How many players, period, have had a 3-4 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers…

Updated:

Consider that in the past 280 games (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.6/12.3/8.6 on +8.3 rTS% (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.6/12.3/8.6 in ANY single 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.

Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.3 MPG.

And, he's sustained it for basically 3.5 full seasons, including the playoffs.

That is truly astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.8 PER across the last 280 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and Lebron James.

2. His BPM the last 3.5 seasons is 11.9, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 6 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

3. His TS% of .655 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .827 from the line, an incredible .367 from three point range on very high volume for a big man. 



Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 280+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

Listen, man…I love and admire David Robinson. He was arguably my favorite player during the 1990’s.

He’s one of the most athletic big men ever, he’s one of the smartest, and most astute, and gentlemanly players ever, and he’s one of the greatest regular season performers ever, among all centers in history.

He was light years ahead of prime Jokic defensively, but Jokic is light years ahead of him offensively the last 4 seasons. And, unlike D Rob, Jokic has been a stone cold killer in the playoffs and finals.

His impact, overall, at his best is higher than Robinson’s was. It’s not that complicated.

Also, you cannot punish guys in the era of load management for not playing 40+ mpg.

Should we say compare Robinson’s MPG and counting stats to Wilt or even Kareem in their primes?

No. That would be totally unfair, also.

[kcktiny]

For those who prefer advanced metrics

Since when is PER an advanced metric? Have you not read through this thread?

1. His 31.8 PER across the last 280 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and Lebron James.

Quoting PER as some advanced metric is nonsense - outside of defensive rebounds, steals, and blocked shots it does NOT measure any component of defense. You are trying to equate Jokic to these all-time greats using a measure that - you clearly know - does not measure that one key aspect of the game Jokic is not very good at, that all these other great players you want to compare him to excelled at - shot defense.

It's either that or the fact that you clearly do not understand the impact of a great defensive player that holds opponents to low FG%s that Jokic does NOT do. Again, go to stats.nba.com and check out the individual player shot defense data. There is data there for the past decade, i.e. all of Jokic's career.

2. His BPM the last 3.5 seasons is 11.9, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 6 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

Wow - sounds impressive.

However - go to the basketball reference glossary:

Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender.

So - again - you have chosen to use a measure - like PER - that just happens to inflate what Jokic does well, offense, but does not take into consideration where he is clearly lacking, defense outside of steals, blocks, and defensive rebounding, i.e. shot defense.

3. His TS% of .655 would be third all time

Again, you are ignoring the context/time of when he has accumulated his shooting. You simply do not - or do not want to - understand, or acknowledge this.

Including this season since he came into the league Jokic shot 60.4% on 2s when just the league average C shot 57.4%. He has shot only 3% above what just the league average C has shot.

The past 7 seasons there have been 15 times a player played 1000+minutes in a season and shot 70%+ on 2s, 66 times above 65%.

From 1989-90 to 1995-96, some 27-33 years ago, when peak David Robinson played, the league average C shot 50.1% on 2s and he shot 52.8%, almost 3% better.

Those 7 seasons not a single player played 1000+ minutes in a season and shot 65%+ on 2s, let alone 70%+.

Listen, man…I love and admire David Robinson... He was light years ahead of prime Jokic defensively

Yes he was.

but Jokic is light years ahead of him offensively the last 4 seasons

Wrong.

How is it that above you can quote conditions in the game that were different in terms of game pace some 55-60 years ago in the 1960s, to try to justify your opinion of your boy in a better light, but then also ignore the conditions of shooting at that same time? Chamberlain clearly shot far better than the average C did back then than Jokic has the past 7 seasons, yet you deliberately choose ignore that.

You are clearly picking and choosing only those parameters or measurements that you feel paint your boy in a good light, yet you are ignoring those that do not.

His impact, overall, at his best is higher than Robinson’s was. It’s not that complicated.

Yes. When you only quote those parameters/measurements that highlight what Jokic does best, and not acknowledge his weaknesses, it is easy to come to that conclusion.

I suggest you try to learn how to evaluate shot defense. You know, that one key area Jokic is not very good at that all these other all-time great Cs you want to claim he was better than excelled at, like DRob, Olajuwon, Jabbar, Wilt, and to some extent Shaq.

Also, you cannot punish guys in the era of load management for not playing 40+ mpg.

This is just another excuse from Jokic fans, like ignoring defense.

Jokic has been in the league since 2015-16. Since that time there have been:

- 6 players with 2000+ minutes played in a season play 38+ min/g
- 26 times a player with 2000+ minutes played play 37 min/g
- 52 times a player with 2000+ minutes played play 36 min/g
- 75 times a player with 2000+ minutes played play 35 min/g

In 8 seasons Jokic has played as much as 35 min/g in a season just once...

And the past 4 seasons he played just 72 games/season - that's an average of 10 missed games a season, or about 1/8 of each season.

But there are those that just want to ignore this and claim Jokic is better than DRob or Olajuwon or Shaq or Wilt or Jabbar, guys that played both sides of the ball and had seasons with 3000+ minutes played at 38-40 min/g played or more.

David Robinson his first 7 seasons before his injury played 79-80 games/season and averaged playing 38 min/g, and as much as 41 min/g in a season.

Someone can claim all they want:

He's not better than Jokic

But that claim is ridiculous when you consider defense, playing time, and games played.

It's funny/ironic how Jokic fanboys have no problem ignoring this reality, giving Jokic a free pass for missing games, not playing major minutes, and not being anywhere near the defender the all-time greats Cs were.

Should we say compare Robinson’s MPG and counting stats to Wilt or even Kareem in their primes?

Absolutely. That's a key reason why Chamberlain and Jabbar are two of the greatest Cs - and possibly the two greatest Cs - ever.

These giants of the NBA rarely missed games and rarely sat. Yet you want us to believe some offensive minded C who sits 1/4 to 1/3 of the games he plays in and misses 1/8 of each regular season is better than them? Give me a break.

No. That would be totally unfair, also.

What does fair or unfair have to do with this??

Jokic has played for Denver for 8 seasons. Yet they have won 50+ games in a season just twice. That's it - just twice.

Did it ever occur to you that had he played more min/g and didn't miss 10 games a season that they might have won more games?

[Ol Roy]

I'm curious how people would rank Robinson, Olajuwon, Garnett, and Duncan if all were playing at the peak of their powers today.

Do all make the top ten? Who gets better and who gets worse?

[70sFan]

Arguing Robinson over Jokic offensively is just box score watching... and in a miserable way.

Whoa. Wait a minute TV physicist. Did you or did you not just post a thread on Wilt's fadeaways and fingerolls, that you likely thought was informative and of interest to the readers here, where every statistic was FGM/FGA, which are box score statistics?

Wow, what a miserable effort.

Oh. Merry Christmas!

If you feel you have the right to lob some jabs, expect a few coming your way. Otherwise leave it alone.

Merry Christmas to you as well!

[-Luke-]

I'm curious how people would rank Robinson, Olajuwon, Garnett, and Duncan if all were playing at the peak of their powers today.

Do all make the top ten? Who gets better and who gets worse?

I don't see how any of them would not be top 10 today. It would definitely be a completely insane big men position with seven players (those four plus Jokic, Embiid, Giannis) who would all be MVP level players.

Not sure any of them would be better considering how great they were in their own time. But all would be great today.

[Bidofo]

Did it ever occur to you that had he played more min/g and didn't miss 10 games a season that they might have won more games?

Would Jokic have won more than the one championship + FMVP he did last year had he not missed 13 regular season games?

Please share with us your playoff comparisons of the two and how they rank in their era. I'm sure you just mistakenly overlooked that, why else would they not be brought up for Robinson

[kcktiny]

I'm curious how people would rank Robinson, Olajuwon, Garnett, and Duncan if all were playing at the peak of their powers today. Do all make the top ten?

Those four - at their peaks - would be top 7 today, easy, alongside Embiid, Antetokounmpo, Anthony Davis. Dominant defenders, rebounders, shot blockers (except Garnett), scorers, played major minutes.

Just lol at quoting every single line and ignoring anything that mentions the playoffs like the plague.

Please share with us your playoff comparisons of the two and how they rank in their era. I'm sure you just mistakenly overlooked that, why else would they not be brought up for Robinson

lol are you not capable of doing this on your own? You really need help? You've mentioned this not just once now, but twice.

You're a big boy, if you have a point you want to make, make it.

Warned for personal attack - CF

[Bidofo]

Just lol at quoting every single line and ignoring anything that mentions the playoffs like the plague.

Please share with us your playoff comparisons of the two and how they rank in their era. I'm sure you just mistakenly overlooked that, why else would they not be brought up for Robinson

lol are you not capable of doing this on your own? You really need help? You've mentioned this not just once now, but twice.

You're a big boy, if you have a point you want to make, make it.

I actually have no idea how to do it. I mean I can grab season averages of course, but I don't know how to compare multi-season averages/totals to the league and to others at their position.