PG: Raptors blow out the Wizards. Improve to 3-8 in December

[Jadoogar]

This was one reason the experiment didn't go great last year with that ~20 game stretch for Scottie at "PG".

Scottie has obviously ascended and is going to be a superstar, but he'll never have the agility-handle combination to be the kind of PG to tilt or manipulate offenses the way Tyrese or Trae do. Offensively, I've compared him to Draymond, who is a genius facilitating from the elbows or even near the 3pt line as the team goes through its actions and offers shooting options (Draymond has a bunch of 7+ APG seasons, almost hit 9 assists in '21). Pretty wild that he can combine this with the strength of a Kawhi-like midrange game and a legit 3p shot now. He's so good.

The Raps will just need to plan for the inevitable adjustment of teams sending fast and smaller guards to press him or defensive schemes that aggressively go after him at POA, and to make sure he can still play the "free-safety" type role he's currently doing on D while he wracks up steals+blocks (let Gary guard the other PG).

Scottie is a fantastic player but he's not a point guard. He's a good playmaker but he doesn't have the handle to operate as the primary playmaker of a team. It's like playing Giannis at point guard. He's a decent passer but you're neutralizing his best skills

And 100% agree on the defensive side. He's not going to be able to guard guys like Maxey or Fox (and he shouldn't be expected to).

Yall can relax. It happened once. He had 2 turnovers in his 33 minutes. Dennis had 3 turnovers in 28 minutes. Scottie is still the best option as a PG for this team. Dennis is great for the bench and is a bench level player. Starting Dennis got us 7 games below .500. Even if you hate the idea of Scottie as the point it can't make us worse and more importantly it's great for his development. Playing Scottie as a big puts a much lower ceiling on him. I want a MVP level player and for that to happen he needs serious on ball reps. Yall crying over one turnover yet he lead us to our first blowout win in long time having a better game than Dennis can dream of. What are we talking about really LOL

i'm not using one game against one of the worst teams in the league to come to my conclusion.
I don't care about him playing point guard this year because this team is hopeless and this is a lost season. In the long run, i believe he will be at his best at a secondary playmker and having another guard to create space and generate opportunities for him.

[Duffman100]

Because I truly believe the fans have at least 37% more knowledge of the game of basketball than Darko and Bobsai

You... can't be serious.

You can’t be serious thinking he’s not being serious. You moderate these forums without reading them? It is pretty clear many people think this.

YOU can't be serious?! Of course I moderate without reading anything.

[djsunyc]

Those tooting their own horn over the starting lineup change picked just about the worst time to do so:

Trent/OG/Barnes/Siakam/Poeltl:

-47.6 net rating against the Wiz

We all wanted a change but this game is proof of nothing so far.

It's proof Dennis is better for the bench. It's proof we are better when Flynn never plays. It's proof that without Dennis in the way Scottie/Pascal/OG can all eat and Dennis can sill get his with the bench. I think there is something here but be negative.

We played the Wiz, the worst defensive team in the league. As I said, we all wanted to see changes but this game proves nothing.

A 1 game sample size is not proof of anything. I was driving the “replace Schroder with Trent” bandwagon and I’m happy with changes in process but no one should be claiming any type of success yet.

so many fans are like "hey we beat the lowly wizards, who cares". and as they finish saying that, they follow it up with "i told you to bench dennis".

like totally discount the win cause it means nothing but do count the lineup change b/c...reasons?

[James_Raptors]

It's proof Dennis is better for the bench. It's proof we are better when Flynn never plays. It's proof that without Dennis in the way Scottie/Pascal/OG can all eat and Dennis can sill get his with the bench. I think there is something here but be negative.

We played the Wiz, the worst defensive team in the league. As I said, we all wanted to see changes but this game proves nothing.

A 1 game sample size is not proof of anything. I was driving the “replace Schroder with Trent” bandwagon and I’m happy with changes in process but no one should be claiming any type of success yet.

so many fans are like "hey we beat the lowly wizards, who cares". and as they finish saying that, they follow it up with "i told you to bench dennis".

like totally discount the win cause it means nothing but do count the lineup change b/c...reasons?

Exactly. Who we won with is more important right now than who we won against.
The formula changed, and that's the key.

[ConSarnit]

It's proof Dennis is better for the bench. It's proof we are better when Flynn never plays. It's proof that without Dennis in the way Scottie/Pascal/OG can all eat and Dennis can sill get his with the bench. I think there is something here but be negative.

We played the Wiz, the worst defensive team in the league. As I said, we all wanted to see changes but this game proves nothing.

A 1 game sample size is not proof of anything. I was driving the “replace Schroder with Trent” bandwagon and I’m happy with changes in process but no one should be claiming any type of success yet.

so many fans are like "hey we beat the lowly wizards, who cares". and as they finish saying that, they follow it up with "i told you to bench dennis".

like totally discount the win cause it means nothing but do count the lineup change b/c...reasons?

The staters had a -47 net rating. Everyone is talking about the great success of the lineup changes yet no one has acknowledged that the starters got killed against one of the worst teams in the league. Schroder to the bench is not going to matter if the starters are getting destroyed. I’m pushing back against the idea that this has actually fixed anything (yet). Maybe it will but we sure can’t tell from this game.

The win from this game is Darko showing coaching flexibility, not beating one of the dregs of the league.

[Badonkadonk]

This was one reason the experiment didn't go great last year with that ~20 game stretch for Scottie at "PG".

Scottie has obviously ascended and is going to be a superstar, but he'll never have the agility-handle combination to be the kind of PG to tilt or manipulate offenses the way Tyrese or Trae do. Offensively, I've compared him to Draymond, who is a genius facilitating from the elbows or even near the 3pt line as the team goes through its actions and offers shooting options (Draymond has a bunch of 7+ APG seasons, almost hit 9 assists in '21). Pretty wild that he can combine this with the strength of a Kawhi-like midrange game and a legit 3p shot now. He's so good.

The Raps will just need to plan for the inevitable adjustment of teams sending fast and smaller guards to press him or defensive schemes that aggressively go after him at POA, and to make sure he can still play the "free-safety" type role he's currently doing on D while he wracks up steals+blocks (let Gary guard the other PG).

Scottie is a fantastic player but he's not a point guard. He's a good playmaker but he doesn't have the handle to operate as the primary playmaker of a team. It's like playing Giannis at point guard. He's a decent passer but you're neutralizing his best skills

And 100% agree on the defensive side. He's not going to be able to guard guys like Maxey or Fox (and he shouldn't be expected to).

Yall can relax. It happened once. He had 2 turnovers in his 33 minutes. Dennis had 3 turnovers in 28 minutes. Scottie is still the best option as a PG for this team. Dennis is great for the bench and is a bench level player. Starting Dennis got us 7 games below .500. Even if you hate the idea of Scottie as the point it can't make us worse and more importantly it's great for his development. Playing Scottie as a big puts a much lower ceiling on him. I want a MVP level player and for that to happen he needs serious on ball reps. Yall crying over one turnover yet he lead us to our first blowout win in long time having a better game than Dennis can dream of. What are we talking about really LOL

The opponent is irrelevant when discussing the definition of a PG and what elements of that Scottie can bring, in combination of whatever else makes him special.

I literally cited last year's 20 game sample where he was given a similar opportunity.

"lol Wizards" doesn't apply here.

[HiJiNX]

This was one reason the experiment didn't go great last year with that ~20 game stretch for Scottie at "PG".

Scottie has obviously ascended and is going to be a superstar, but he'll never have the agility-handle combination to be the kind of PG to tilt or manipulate offenses the way Tyrese or Trae do. Offensively, I've compared him to Draymond, who is a genius facilitating from the elbows or even near the 3pt line as the team goes through its actions and offers shooting options (Draymond has a bunch of 7+ APG seasons, almost hit 9 assists in '21). Pretty wild that he can combine this with the strength of a Kawhi-like midrange game and a legit 3p shot now. He's so good.

The Raps will just need to plan for the inevitable adjustment of teams sending fast and smaller guards to press him or defensive schemes that aggressively go after him at POA, and to make sure he can still play the "free-safety" type role he's currently doing on D while he wracks up steals+blocks (let Gary guard the other PG).

Scottie is a fantastic player but he's not a point guard. He's a good playmaker but he doesn't have the handle to operate as the primary playmaker of a team. It's like playing Giannis at point guard. He's a decent passer but you're neutralizing his best skills

And 100% agree on the defensive side. He's not going to be able to guard guys like Maxey or Fox (and he shouldn't be expected to).

Yall can relax. It happened once. He had 2 turnovers in his 33 minutes. Dennis had 3 turnovers in 28 minutes. Scottie is still the best option as a PG for this team. Dennis is great for the bench and is a bench level player. Starting Dennis got us 7 games below .500. Even if you hate the idea of Scottie as the point it can't make us worse and more importantly it's great for his development. Playing Scottie as a big puts a much lower ceiling on him. I want a MVP level player and for that to happen he needs serious on ball reps. Yall crying over one turnover yet he lead us to our first blowout win in long time having a better game than Dennis can dream of. What are we talking about really LOL

Yeah those who wanna use that steal by Avdija as an example as to why Barnes can’t be a point guard are engaging in a heaping plate of confirmation bias. Barnes generally brings the ball up the court a lot as is, even before the lineup change, and never has an issue with recognizing the D and getting rid of the ball if the pressure is too much. Most of what he does well starts with him bringing the ball up the court. If anybody really wants to criticize Barnes last night it was that he couldn’t get the ball into the paint as the PG in the halfcourt.

Overall, I agree that he needs the on-ball reps. And it’s going to look ugly at times. But he’s going to have to get used to seeing different kinds of coverages and defenders if he’s going to be the franchise player.

Interesting that Giannis was brought up because I believe it was in his third year where Kidd made the decision to make him the PG for a long stretch so he could get used to handling ball pressure and making decisions against different coverages. At the time I wondered what the hell Kidd was doing but now it’s clear to see why he did it. We are seeing the Raptors slowly transition to giving Barnes similar responsibilities. Hopefully we eventually get a starter level guard but until then I’m cool with Barnes developing on-ball skills as the defacto starting PG until that happens.

[Boselecta]

So happy so finally see the lineup used that FANS were calling for since the beginning of the season. Unfortunately it took an NBA coach 30 games to see to it.

But I’m willing to bet this won’t last Darko will return to his old ways very soon. I wouldn’t be surprised if Masai forced the change.

[HiJiNX]

Those tooting their own horn over the starting lineup change picked just about the worst time to do so:

Trent/OG/Barnes/Siakam/Poeltl:

-47.6 net rating against the Wiz

We all wanted a change but this game is proof of nothing so far.

It's proof Dennis is better for the bench. It's proof we are better when Flynn never plays. It's proof that without Dennis in the way Scottie/Pascal/OG can all eat and Dennis can sill get his with the bench. I think there is something here but be negative.

We played the Wiz, the worst defensive team in the league. As I said, we all wanted to see changes but this game proves nothing.

A 1 game sample size is not proof of anything. I was driving the “replace Schroder with Trent” bandwagon and I’m happy with changes in process but no one should be claiming any type of success yet.

If one game can’t be used as a sample to say that the new lineups/rotations will have a positive impact wouldn’t it also hold that we can’t use one game to say the new starting lineup sucks?

Granted, the new starting lineup didn’t look good out there, but to me it looked more like unfamiliarity than ineptitude. But maybe it is ineptitude. We need at least five games to do some assessment, though.

[ConSarnit]

It's proof Dennis is better for the bench. It's proof we are better when Flynn never plays. It's proof that without Dennis in the way Scottie/Pascal/OG can all eat and Dennis can sill get his with the bench. I think there is something here but be negative.

We played the Wiz, the worst defensive team in the league. As I said, we all wanted to see changes but this game proves nothing.

A 1 game sample size is not proof of anything. I was driving the “replace Schroder with Trent” bandwagon and I’m happy with changes in process but no one should be claiming any type of success yet.

If one game can’t be used as a sample to say that the new lineups/rotations will have a positive impact wouldn’t it also hold that we can’t use one game to say the new starting lineup sucks?

Granted, the new starting lineup didn’t look good out there, but to me it looked more like unfamiliarity than ineptitude. But maybe it is ineptitude. We need at least five games to do some assessment, though.

Agreed 100% about using 1 game sample sizes. I only pulled that number as a counter to show that using this game to claim the changes are a success is jumping the gun. Basically, we can’t claim “Dennis to the bench is a success” but ignore “starter net rating” if posters want to claim the lineup changes are a success after 1 game. We shouldn’t take anything away from this game outside of its good Darko is willing to experiment with different lineups. If this lineups will actually work is tbd.

[sidsid]

We played the Wiz, the worst defensive team in the league. As I said, we all wanted to see changes but this game proves nothing.

A 1 game sample size is not proof of anything. I was driving the “replace Schroder with Trent” bandwagon and I’m happy with changes in process but no one should be claiming any type of success yet.

so many fans are like "hey we beat the lowly wizards, who cares". and as they finish saying that, they follow it up with "i told you to bench dennis".

like totally discount the win cause it means nothing but do count the lineup change b/c...reasons?

The staters had a -47 net rating. Everyone is talking about the great success of the lineup changes yet no one has acknowledged that the starters got killed against one of the worst teams in the league. Schroder to the bench is not going to matter if the starters are getting destroyed. I’m pushing back against the idea that this has actually fixed anything (yet). Maybe it will but we sure can’t tell from this game.

The win from this game is Darko showing coaching flexibility, not beating one of the dregs of the league.

Everyone is right on this one.

The starting lineup still has 2 structural problems. Jak is still in it and our wing creators can't be centered in the hub because of it. That will continue to be a problem for the offense.

The tangible improvement is moving Dennis' role and usage to the bench, which will help those lineups while not dampening the wing trio.

The success is that it's created more sustainable bench lineups while providing minor improvements for the starters but a helpful developmental one putting more of the playmaking under the wings responsibility.

[Scase]

and this is why will will remain a fan podcaster and not ascend to dragic's higher ambitions.

that's fine i guess if he's content being that.

Those tooting their own horn over the starting lineup change picked just about the worst time to do so:

Trent/OG/Barnes/Siakam/Poeltl:

-47.6 net rating against the Wiz

We all wanted a change but this game is proof of nothing so far.

It's proof Dennis is better for the bench. It's proof we are better when Flynn never plays. It's proof that without Dennis in the way Scottie/Pascal/OG can all eat and Dennis can sill get his with the bench. I think there is something here but be negative.

It proves that we can do these things against the team that allows the most PPG in the NBA and the team with the worst DRTG in the league.

TLDR; It proves nothing.

IIRC our SL of Dennis/OG/Scottie/Siakam/Jak had a ridiculous NETRTG leading the league for the first 10 games or so, this is meaningless.

[Potential]

Well I wasn't 100% serious but me and maybe some other fans definitely have more NBA knowledge than Bobsai since 2020. I picked us to draft Scottie and Keyonte, trade FVV for assets and not make the Thad and Purtle trades.

[Scase]

It's proof Dennis is better for the bench. It's proof we are better when Flynn never plays. It's proof that without Dennis in the way Scottie/Pascal/OG can all eat and Dennis can sill get his with the bench. I think there is something here but be negative.

We played the Wiz, the worst defensive team in the league. As I said, we all wanted to see changes but this game proves nothing.

A 1 game sample size is not proof of anything. I was driving the “replace Schroder with Trent” bandwagon and I’m happy with changes in process but no one should be claiming any type of success yet.

If one game can’t be used as a sample to say that the new lineups/rotations will have a positive impact wouldn’t it also hold that we can’t use one game to say the new starting lineup sucks?

Granted, the new starting lineup didn’t look good out there, but to me it looked more like unfamiliarity than ineptitude. But maybe it is ineptitude. We need at least five games to do some assessment, though.

I think the thing to be happy about, is that we are seeing continued change by Darko. People saying "FINALLY" are a bit silly, considering he has been making a multitude of changes over the last 6-8 games, but everyone hand waived it away, or ignored it outright because the SL didn't change.

We should be happy changes are being made, but victory laps after beating the wiz is just silly. At the end of the day, this roster is still booty cheeks, and no matter of shuffling around will not turn them into anything other than play in fodder at best. This shows that if we get a proper roster in place, Darko might actually be able to do something with it. That is something I take some solace in, and would be happy to see.

[Raps in 4]

People taking victory laps about the lineup change like we didn't just put up 132 on the team that allows the most points per game lol.

Only thing the lineup change did, was showed just how unnecessary Siakam is.

We almost lost to this Wizard team almost a month ago....

We also blew out the Bucks a month ago with the old lineup. Sample sizes of one mean nothing.

[DG88]

So we know who got the chain last night

Read on Twitter

?t=SyG8huCgGMLcKOAm3E07Xg&s=19

[srhcan]

Reward Achiuwa bad play with starting role is a strange one

Achiuwa fit the modern game lot more than Jak

Achiuwa is not better than Jakob in any way shape or form for any style of play in any role. He’s probably the worst player in the league.

Hyperbole much? Precious is not even worst player of Raptors and you are putting him as worst player in the whole NBA

[hyper316]

So we know who got the chain last night

Read on Twitter

?t=SyG8huCgGMLcKOAm3E07Xg&s=19

Hey if Darko finally able to convince Dennis to come off the bench and perform like this, keep giving him the chain

Dennis took it like a pro and performed very well

[YogurtProducer]

People taking victory laps about the lineup change like we didn't just put up 132 on the team that allows the most points per game lol.

Only thing the lineup change did, was showed just how unnecessary Siakam is.

Right, we didn't need Pascal's 22 points and 11 assists tonight

To be fair, against Washington we probably didn’t

It is hilarious seeing all the hype for Scottie and how amazing he is when Siakam is casually doing almost the exact same stuff for 5 seasons now and Siakam is “unnecessary”.

As far as I am concerned, outside of purposely getting worse, a below average offensive team needs its best scorer

[Scase]

People taking victory laps about the lineup change like we didn't just put up 132 on the team that allows the most points per game lol.

Only thing the lineup change did, was showed just how unnecessary Siakam is.

Right, we didn't need Pascal's 22 points and 11 assists tonight

To be fair, against Washington we probably didn’t

It is hilarious seeing all the hype for Scottie and how amazing he is when Siakam is casually doing almost the exact same stuff for 5 seasons now and Siakam is “unnecessary”.

As far as I am concerned, outside of purposely getting worse, a below average offensive team needs its best scorer

Scottie is 22 and playing at a higher level than the 29 year old. How is this "hilarious"?
Scottie is putting up better numbers, on better efficiency, at a much younger age. It took Siakam 3 years to put up numbers comparable to Scotties rookie year, and that required having a top 3 player like Kawhi taking all the defensive pressure.

No one is saying Siakam is bad, or what he has done isn't impressive. But it doesn't matter. He got heaps of praise for what he was doing, when he was doing it. We have a freshly turned 22 year old playing better, that's why he's getting hype, because he is showing future MVP potential. This isn't rocket surgery.