Peak Harden vs Kobe vs A.Davis vs Moses

[One_and_Done]

Who was better at their peak?

[wafflzgod]

Kobe > Harden >= AD > Moses

[Jaqua92]

I know Kobe is overrated just a bit by casuals, but he's also become very underrated.

He's a top 10 all time player, a 5x champion and a 2x MVP, and was an integral part of two championship teams. He's an MVP and was a somewhat chronic all defensive guard.

Kobe at his best is the 2nd best player in the NBA. Realistically, there's probably only 10-13 guys who have ever peaked higher.

And of them, only Jokic, Steph, and maybe Giannis are currently playing.

[Colbinii]

Harden => Kobe > Moses > AD

[One_and_Done]

Harden plays the same position as Kobe, and the stats would strongly suggest he's better.

Per 100 Harden's peak is 48/9/10 on 616 TS% 118 Ortg/108 Drtg

As against Kobe's peak of 45/7/6 on 559 TS% 114 Ortg/105 Drtg.

The longer we stretch out the sample, the worse it looks for Kobe. That peak is something of an anomaly for Kobe. His next closest pp 100 is under 40.

Harden also has shown more ability to carry a team, and doesn't seem to wilt much more in the playoffs than Kobe. Kobe has some shocking playoffs.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Harden plays the same position as Kobe, and the stats would strongly suggest he's better.

Per 100 Harden's peak is 48/9/10 on 616 TS% 118 Ortg/108 Drtg

As against Kobe's peak of 45/7/6 on 559 TS% 114 Ortg/105 Drtg.

The longer we stretch out the sample, the worse it looks for Kobe. That peak is something of an anomaly for Kobe. His next closest pp 100 is under 40.

Harden also has shown more ability to carry a team, and doesn't seem to wilt much more in the playoffs than Kobe. Kobe has some shocking playoffs.

Harden played in a different era where defense was an afterthought. A NBA where tams score 130+ on the regular

I did get a chuckle out of "Harden also has shown more ability to carry a team"

[rk2023]

I wrote this a while back regarding Kobe vs. Harden solely on the offensive end. To answer this question though, Kobe >> Davis > Harden >= Moses

Watch on YouTube

;feature=youtu.be

^^ A video somewhat pertaining to the subject that I found as useful in terms of thinking through (I’m higher on Wade who also is mentioned, not as high on Harden FWIW).

Comparing the two, the only edge I would give Harden on just offense is being able to sustain a higher on-ball and heliocentric load - more-so in the regular season than PS. Even with this being accurately represented by the box score, from what I have looked into Harden’s impact on an offense, thinking more at face value, doesn’t quite have the sheer lift and floor raising effect I have seen from other mega-creation seasons and floor-raising efforts (eg. Jordan, James, and even Wade).

From a team comparison standpoint, Bryant generally speaking had more resilient offensive results.

Bryant 2008-10:

Spoiler:

Regular Season -> 114.1 On , 103.3 Off
Playoffs -> 113.0 On, 101.1 Off
6.7 Playoff rORTG

Harden 2018-20:

Spoiler:

Regular Season -> 117.6 On, 112.0 Off
Playoffs -> 112.0 On, 105.9 Off
3.5 Playoff rORTG

While I think Harden may have done more, I think Kobe did more with less from a possession management angle. As Cavsfansince84 alluded to, I think the triangle scheme and mastering it definitely helped with this. While Kobe did still possess some scoring blindness and have a tendency to dial up one-too-many isolations for my liking, I still find a fraction of his offensive value to be accrued from very good off-ball and connective / in-offensive-flow skills - to a point where ball movement and stellar decision making from everyone on the floor led to Kobe catalyzing power plays or calling his own number. Furthermore, Harden may have a better RS scoring track record but I find Kobe's shot-diet far more inelastic across coverages/defenses faced. Harden still creates more shots, but I find the gap in off-ball movement (partially under scalability) and turnover economy to outweigh the playmaking gap between the two - and even with as flawed on/off analysis may be, I think team results do reflect this to an extent.

While I think people in more casual sense do overrate Kobe's defense, I feel as if there is some sort of over-correction. I have him as a clear , but not too strong , positive value defender - Harden as a neutral more-so.

Statistical Overview (RS -> PS):

Bryant 2008-10:

Spoiler:

28.2 aPts/75 on 1.9% rTS -> 30.4 on 3.9% rTS
8.6 Box Creation -> 10.0
6.5 Passer Rating -> 6.8
.9 ScoreVal -> 1.5
1.0 PlayVal -> 1.2
5.0 BPM (ElGee's Model) -> 6.8
4.3 AuPM/G -> 4.7

Harden 2018-20:

Spoiler:

33.9 aPts/75 on 6.2% rTS -> 30.3 on 3.0% rTS
17.3 Box Creation -> 12.7
7.7 Passer Rating -> 7.6
1.9 ScoreVal -> 1.0
2.2 PlayVal -> 1.6
7.8 BPM -> 6.6
4.1 AuPM/G -> 4.0

[NBA4Lyfe]

I wrote this a while back regarding Kobe vs. Harden solely on the offensive end. To answer this question though, Kobe >> Davis > Harden >= Moses

Watch on YouTube

;feature=youtu.be

^^ A video somewhat pertaining to the subject that I found as useful in terms of thinking through (I’m higher on Wade who also is mentioned, not as high on Harden FWIW).

Comparing the two, the only edge I would give Harden on just offense is being able to sustain a higher on-ball and heliocentric load - more-so in the regular season than PS. Even with this being accurately represented by the box score, from what I have looked into Harden’s impact on an offense, thinking more at face value, doesn’t quite have the sheer lift and floor raising effect I have seen from other mega-creation seasons and floor-raising efforts (eg. Jordan, James, and even Wade).

From a team comparison standpoint, Bryant generally speaking had more resilient offensive results.

Bryant 2008-10:

Spoiler:

Regular Season -> 114.1 On , 103.3 Off
Playoffs -> 113.0 On, 101.1 Off
6.7 Playoff rORTG

Harden 2018-20:

Spoiler:

Regular Season -> 117.6 On, 112.0 Off
Playoffs -> 112.0 On, 105.9 Off
3.5 Playoff rORTG

While I think Harden may have done more, I think Kobe did more with less from a possession management angle. As Cavsfansince84 alluded to, I think the triangle scheme and mastering it definitely helped with this. While Kobe did still possess some scoring blindness and have a tendency to dial up one-too-many isolations for my liking, I still find a fraction of his offensive value to be accrued from very good off-ball and connective / in-offensive-flow skills - to a point where ball movement and stellar decision making from everyone on the floor led to Kobe catalyzing power plays or calling his own number. Furthermore, Harden may have a better RS scoring track record but I find Kobe's shot-diet far more inelastic across coverages/defenses faced. Harden still creates more shots, but I find the gap in off-ball movement (partially under scalability) and turnover economy to outweigh the playmaking gap between the two - and even with as flawed on/off analysis may be, I think team results do reflect this to an extent.

While I think people in more casual sense do overrate Kobe's defense, I feel as if there is some sort of over-correction. I have him as a clear , but not too strong , positive value defender - Harden as a neutral more-so.

Statistical Overview (RS -> PS):

Bryant 2008-10:

Spoiler:

28.2 aPts/75 on 1.9% rTS -> 30.4 on 3.9% rTS
8.6 Box Creation -> 10.0
6.5 Passer Rating -> 6.8
.9 ScoreVal -> 1.5
1.0 PlayVal -> 1.2
5.0 BPM (ElGee's Model) -> 6.8
4.3 AuPM/G -> 4.7

Harden 2018-20:

Spoiler:

33.9 aPts/75 on 6.2% rTS -> 30.3 on 3.0% rTS
17.3 Box Creation -> 12.7
7.7 Passer Rating -> 7.6
1.9 ScoreVal -> 1.0
2.2 PlayVal -> 1.6
7.8 BPM -> 6.6
4.1 AuPM/G -> 4.0

I appreciate the time and effort you put into stating youre case, But if we are being 100% truthful, none of the players listed here have a case over PEAK harden.. thats not a slight tho as James Harden literally broke the game of basketball offensively. Coaches were forced to resorting to using junky high school/aau level defenses doubling him in the backcourt from the tip-off as soon as game started (this was very apparent when westbrook was there his 1 szn in houston). Teams were guarding james harden in the playoffs from behind, you had longtime coaches like steve kerr, mike budenholzer and mike malone all running to adam silver begging him to make league wide changes as they claimed James was to just unfair with how the current game was being played and called (keep in mind wade, kobe, iverson, etc) all played under the same rules, but these coaches who by the way also happen to be world champions felt that the rules needed to be altered to at least try to nerf james harden. Keep in mind as dominant as steph curry was from 3 during that same timespan these coaches never ran to the league office asking about moving the 3 point line back to discourage so many 3 point attempts or to even try and put an emphasis on the warriors moving screens epidemic.

I know you listed some numbers stating youre case but here are a few of mine. Now keep in mind stats like EPM, RAPTOR and LEBRON are fairly recent but the fact that neither the recency of jokics/embiid offensive dominance, nor steph currys recent domiance has topped any of james harden's peak seasons in his prime to me pretty much makes my argument. And as much as i admire ben taylors work, he seems to be a bit bias when it comes to analyzing james harden's career especially when it comes to his hall of fame level portability. So using ben taylor in any subject/topic involving harden i dont think would be wise

And when i say Harden has the highest offensive peak since 2011-2012 i mean here is the proof below. There are a ton of metrics i can use but i'll just use standard LEBRON for now, since in my estimation its less hit or miss when compared to stuff like modern real plus minus( RPM)

Here are some numbers, so unless you want to say kobe or wade has a higher peak than stephen curry as well, i mean the proof is right here

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?s=20

[Special_Puppy]

Harden peaked as the best player in the world. Not sure Kobe was ever the best player in the world

[70sFan]

Harden peaked as the best player in the world.

When this happened?

[OdomFan]

Harden peaked as the best player in the world. Not sure Kobe was ever the best player in the world

Best of what world? definitely not earth.

[eminence]

First thought was Kobe>Harden>Moses>AD.

Could see any of them up or down a spot.

[One_and_Done]

Harden plays the same position as Kobe, and the stats would strongly suggest he's better.

Per 100 Harden's peak is 48/9/10 on 616 TS% 118 Ortg/108 Drtg

As against Kobe's peak of 45/7/6 on 559 TS% 114 Ortg/105 Drtg.

The longer we stretch out the sample, the worse it looks for Kobe. That peak is something of an anomaly for Kobe. His next closest pp 100 is under 40.

Harden also has shown more ability to carry a team, and doesn't seem to wilt much more in the playoffs than Kobe. Kobe has some shocking playoffs.

Harden played in a different era where defense was an afterthought. A NBA where tams score 130+ on the regular

I did get a chuckle out of "Harden also has shown more ability to carry a team"

And Kobe played in an era where the talent was much worse, and you could coast more to play iso-ball. In today's game Kobe couldn't conserve his energy by chilling on D, he'd be forced to move like crazy, which would affect how much energy he could play with.

Ir's also irrelevant what era Harden played in, because Kobe's 20 year career made ir clear he wasn't going to adust his game to.play a different style, regardless of the affecr on the team. He'd have played the exact same way today. It wouldn't have been pretty alot of the time.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Harden plays the same position as Kobe, and the stats would strongly suggest he's better.

Per 100 Harden's peak is 48/9/10 on 616 TS% 118 Ortg/108 Drtg

As against Kobe's peak of 45/7/6 on 559 TS% 114 Ortg/105 Drtg.

The longer we stretch out the sample, the worse it looks for Kobe. That peak is something of an anomaly for Kobe. His next closest pp 100 is under 40.

Harden also has shown more ability to carry a team, and doesn't seem to wilt much more in the playoffs than Kobe. Kobe has some shocking playoffs.

Harden played in a different era where defense was an afterthought. A NBA where tams score 130+ on the regular

I did get a chuckle out of "Harden also has shown more ability to carry a team"

And Kobe played in an era where the talent was much worse, and you could coast more to play iso-ball. In today's game Kobe couldn't conserve his energy by chilling on D, he'd be forced to move like crazy, which would affect how much energy he could play with.

Ir's also irrelevant what era Harden played in, because Kobe's 20 year career made ir clear he wasn't going to adust his game to.play a different style, regardless of the affecr on the team. He'd have played the exact same way today. It wouldn't have been pretty alot of the time.

What did this man do to you lmao

[Cavsfansince84]

If we are going to use AD's last 40 games of 2020 then I'd be tempted to say he peaked the highest but that comes with the caveat that I don't know how replicable that performance is without LeBron on his team. Next to me is between Kobe and Moses. They're actually similar players imo. Both primarily gunners with above average defense(sorry but I can't put Kobe's defense beyond 04 on that high of a level even if he could turn it on in spurts). I think its fair to ask whether Kobe is actually the more reliable half court weapon than Moses. I would say he is but does his playmaking offset Moses' near outlierish levels of rebounding? Intangibles wise I'm not too high on either but both are hard workers in terms of their mentality. So I'll call it a draw then have Harden last mainly because imo a great peak has to include a great post season and Harden doesn't really have it plus I have serious questions about his leadership/defense.

[One_and_Done]

It's a single season, so yes 2020 Davis counts. I'd be taking that pretty comfortably over the field tbh.