PG: Raptors blow out the Wizards. Improve to 3-8 in December

[hyper316]

Development time under Darko over for Flynn and Achiuwa, ship them out

[Scase]

If one game can’t be used as a sample to say that the new lineups/rotations will have a positive impact wouldn’t it also hold that we can’t use one game to say the new starting lineup sucks?

Granted, the new starting lineup didn’t look good out there, but to me it looked more like unfamiliarity than ineptitude. But maybe it is ineptitude. We need at least five games to do some assessment, though.

I think the thing to be happy about, is that we are seeing continued change by Darko. People saying "FINALLY" are a bit silly, considering he has been making a multitude of changes over the last 6-8 games, but everyone hand waived it away, or ignored it outright because the SL didn't change.

We should be happy changes are being made, but victory laps after beating the wiz is just silly. At the end of the day, this roster is still booty cheeks, and no matter of shuffling around will not turn them into anything other than play in fodder at best. This shows that if we get a proper roster in place, Darko might actually be able to do something with it. That is something I take some solace in, and would be happy to see.

Yeah I’ve been critical of Darko but to see him make changes to the rotations and experiment with stuff the past few weeks, it’s been encouraging to see. I actually think he’s a smart guy but doesn’t know how to be the leader in the room yet. That’ll come in time I hope. He’s learning how to tailor his plan to what he has rather than what he wants his players to be. Still, the D gotta get better haha.

I think one thing we all need to acknowledge is how different this team looks in terms of play style on offence than it did for the first ten games of the season. We are waaaay better on that end. If we had some smarter players who could shoot we would probably have a good offence.

I've mentored lots of people like this in the past, it's akin to a managerial position. A LOT of people when they get their first managerial position, act too nice, trying to be everyones friend, and it takes time to break away from that and be a hard ass when need be. Without being in the locker room, and based entirely on public comments/perception, it seems like this is something he's struggling with.

People that dumped on Darko so quickly was absurd to me, he's new to a role, doesn't matter the role, it always takes time to adjust and get your footing. Nurse is a great coach, and took some adjustment time as well. The lack of patience is crazy.

But as you said at the end, it comes down to a bad roster.

[Clay Davis]

2-28. That's not a Rudy Gay boxscore, that's the Detroit Piss-for-Rizz-stons W-L record.

[YogurtProducer]

Scottie is 22 and playing at a higher level than the 29 year old. How is this "hilarious"?
Scottie is putting up better numbers, on better efficiency, at a much younger age. It took Siakam 3 years to put up numbers comparable to Scotties rookie year, and that required having a top 3 player like Kawhi taking all the defensive pressure.

No one is saying Siakam is bad, or what he has done isn't impressive. But it doesn't matter. He got heaps of praise for what he was doing, when he was doing it. We have a freshly turned 22 year old playing better, that's why he's getting hype, because he is showing future MVP potential. This isn't rocket surgery.

It's not about which one gets more hype. It's about you saying Pascal is unnecessary, when he had a great game.

He did not have a "great game", he had an ok game. And his contribution was barely needed.

The raptors led by 9 at the half despite Siakam putting up 6 points on 3/7 shooting. He had a "good" 3rd quarter, mainly because he just played all 12 minutes. OG had a great game, Siakam was just "there".

He was absolutely not needed to win this game.

Your ability to somehow discredit everything Siakam provides is downright **** impressive.

If 22/6/11 on 64TS% is not a great game then what the hell is? I suppose if that game was barely needed neither was Scotties 20/12/8 or are we gonna somehow flip that to make that impressive but not Siakams?

He had a "good" 3rd quarter? He put up 12 points had 6 assists, and shot 66% from the field. That translates to 36 points and 18 assists per 36 minutes. That is far from "mainly because he played 12 minutes" that is purely due to the fact he completely took over in that quarter.

And just LOL at saying OG had a great and Siakam was just there. It is just absolute **** hate to say the guy whose offence comes as a directly result of being fed by Siakam/Scottie played great but the guy who created most of those points was "there".

If you are gonna spout nonsense and troll at least try to be coherent.

[2019nbachamps]

2-28. That's not a Rudy Gay boxscore, that's the Detroit Piss-for-Rizz-stons W-L record.

Pistons gonna clap our cheeks Saturday

[YogurtProducer]

It's not about which one gets more hype. It's about you saying Pascal is unnecessary, when he had a great game.

Pascal still does the hardest and most valuable thing (Scoring), at a higher level than Scottie does anyways.

I totally understand being excited for the future, but Siakam is far from unnecessary right now

Siakam is averaging 0.6PPG more than Scottie, on worse efficiency. He objectively, this season, is not doing it at a higher level. Hell, if anything he is doing it at a significantly lower level, as he's a threat from one place on the court, while Scottie is a threat from the 3pt line all the way to the basket.

I guess if you don't fundamentally understand scoring you could think that.

Scottie has shot the ball better than Siakam this season, but that is about it when it comes to scoring. Most of Scottie's threes have been open (and by most, I mean 156 of his 158 attempts this year) and being able to shoot an open 3 is not what really I mean by "scoring ability". By literally all metrics, Siakam is a better scorer.

ISO - Siakam 0.96ppp Barnes 0.67ppp
PNR Ball handler - Siakam 0.66ppp Barnes 0.74ppp
Post up - Siakam 1.04ppp Barnes 0.94ppp

Siakam is just a superior guy to go out and get a bucket. Barnes is great at a lot of things Siakam is lesserd at, but he is just simply not the superior scorer.

[Scase]

It's not about which one gets more hype. It's about you saying Pascal is unnecessary, when he had a great game.

He did not have a "great game", he had an ok game. And his contribution was barely needed.

The raptors led by 9 at the half despite Siakam putting up 6 points on 3/7 shooting. He had a "good" 3rd quarter, mainly because he just played all 12 minutes. OG had a great game, Siakam was just "there".

He was absolutely not needed to win this game.

Your ability to somehow discredit everything Siakam provides is downright **** impressive.

If 22/6/11 on 64TS% is not a great game then what the hell is? I suppose if that game was barely needed neither was Scotties 20/12/8 or are we gonna somehow flip that to make that impressive but not Siakams?

He had a "good" 3rd quarter? He put up 12 points had 6 assists, and shot 66% from the field. That translates to 36 points and 18 assists per 36 minutes. That is far from "mainly because he played 12 minutes" that is purely due to the fact he completely took over in that quarter.

And just LOL at saying OG had a great and Siakam was just there. It is just absolute **** hate to say the guy whose offence comes as a directly result of being fed by Siakam/Scottie played great but the guy who created most of those points was "there".

If you are gonna spout nonsense and troll at least try to be coherent.

Yeah shocker, Siakam showed up after the game was already in control. Scottie and OG in the first half put up 32/10/7, the 2 of them alone accounted for more than half the teams points, a little less than half the rebounds, and a third of the assists.

I didn't say Siakam did nothing, I said his contribution wasn't necessary for winning. So sorry that I would rather credit the win to the 2 players that directly got the team off to a good start and pushed it through the entire first half.

And using per36 stats on a single quarter sample size lmao. And you chirp me for being coherent.

[YogurtProducer]

And using per36 stats on a single quarter sample size lmao. And you chirp me for being coherent.

You called a 12/6 quarter on 66% shooting just "good" and unnecessary, and yet you are mocking me.

Have some self-awareness. Sheesh.

[Madvillainy2004]

And using per36 stats on a single quarter sample size lmao. And you chirp me for being coherent.

You called a 12/6 quarter on 66% shooting just "good" and unnecessary, and yet you are mocking me.

Have some self-awareness. Sheesh.

Siakam hate is hilarious lol I mean everyone needed a new target after FVV left I guess.

[Scase]

Pascal still does the hardest and most valuable thing (Scoring), at a higher level than Scottie does anyways.

I totally understand being excited for the future, but Siakam is far from unnecessary right now

Siakam is averaging 0.6PPG more than Scottie, on worse efficiency. He objectively, this season, is not doing it at a higher level. Hell, if anything he is doing it at a significantly lower level, as he's a threat from one place on the court, while Scottie is a threat from the 3pt line all the way to the basket.

I guess if you don't fundamentally understand scoring you could think that.

Scottie has shot the ball better than Siakam this season, but that is about it when it comes to scoring. Most of Scottie's threes have been open (and by most, I mean 156 of his 158 attempts this year) and being able to shoot an open 3 is not what really I mean by "scoring ability". By literally all metrics, Siakam is a better scorer.

ISO - Siakam 0.96ppp Barnes 0.67ppp
PNR Ball handler - Siakam 0.66ppp Barnes 0.74ppp
Post up - Siakam 1.04ppp Barnes 0.94ppp

Siakam is just a superior guy to go out and get a bucket. Barnes is great at a lot of things Siakam is lesserd at, but he is just simply not the superior scorer.

Then maybe he should be going out and getting more buckets, strange that the clearly better scorer, that he can only manage 0.6ppg more than the clearly inferior player.

[Scase]

And using per36 stats on a single quarter sample size lmao. And you chirp me for being coherent.

You called a 12/6 quarter on 66% shooting just "good" and unnecessary, and yet you are mocking me.

Have some self-awareness. Sheesh.

Siakam hate is hilarious lol I mean everyone needed a new target after FVV left I guess.

The usual suspects are out I see. Calling his contribution to the game unnecessary is not "hating" on him. It's flat out saying that for the team to play the way Darko wants it to, it does not require Siakam.

Maybe if y'all could manage even a modicum of objectivity it would make sense, instead of crying that everyone who disagrees is a "hater".

[Scizzup]

Siakam is averaging 0.6PPG more than Scottie, on worse efficiency. He objectively, this season, is not doing it at a higher level. Hell, if anything he is doing it at a significantly lower level, as he's a threat from one place on the court, while Scottie is a threat from the 3pt line all the way to the basket.

I guess if you don't fundamentally understand scoring you could think that.

Scottie has shot the ball better than Siakam this season, but that is about it when it comes to scoring. Most of Scottie's threes have been open (and by most, I mean 156 of his 158 attempts this year) and being able to shoot an open 3 is not what really I mean by "scoring ability". By literally all metrics, Siakam is a better scorer.

ISO - Siakam 0.96ppp Barnes 0.67ppp
PNR Ball handler - Siakam 0.66ppp Barnes 0.74ppp
Post up - Siakam 1.04ppp Barnes 0.94ppp

Siakam is just a superior guy to go out and get a bucket. Barnes is great at a lot of things Siakam is lesserd at, but he is just simply not the superior scorer.

Then maybe he should be going out and getting more buckets, strange that the clearly better scorer, that he can only manage 0.6ppg more than the clearly inferior player.

Barnes is having the better season but come on Pascal is still the superior scorer. Two players can average same ppg and one can still be a better scorer due to how he gets his shot, the shots he takes and how he is defended.

Pascal is currently still the better scorer and is defended as such.

Edit. Bam is averaging more points than Scottie/Pascal/Butler. Who do you think is the better scorer?

[djsunyc]

this pitting one guy against another is straight up junior high sh t. so dumb.

[YogurtProducer]

this pitting one guy against another is straight up junior high sh t. so dumb.

Agreed. Both are great players. You can acknowledge they don't really fit together and still be reasonable in your takes.

[YogurtProducer]

You called a 12/6 quarter on 66% shooting just "good" and unnecessary, and yet you are mocking me.

Have some self-awareness. Sheesh.

Siakam hate is hilarious lol I mean everyone needed a new target after FVV left I guess.

The usual suspects are out I see. Calling his contribution to the game unnecessary is not "hating" on him. It's flat out saying that for the team to play the way Darko wants it to, it does not require Siakam.

Maybe if y'all could manage even a modicum of objectivity it would make sense, instead of crying that everyone who disagrees is a "hater".

Bruh calling his great game "unnecessary" is the definition of hating

[Scase]

I guess if you don't fundamentally understand scoring you could think that.

Scottie has shot the ball better than Siakam this season, but that is about it when it comes to scoring. Most of Scottie's threes have been open (and by most, I mean 156 of his 158 attempts this year) and being able to shoot an open 3 is not what really I mean by "scoring ability". By literally all metrics, Siakam is a better scorer.

ISO - Siakam 0.96ppp Barnes 0.67ppp
PNR Ball handler - Siakam 0.66ppp Barnes 0.74ppp
Post up - Siakam 1.04ppp Barnes 0.94ppp

Siakam is just a superior guy to go out and get a bucket. Barnes is great at a lot of things Siakam is lesserd at, but he is just simply not the superior scorer.

Then maybe he should be going out and getting more buckets, strange that the clearly better scorer, that he can only manage 0.6ppg more than the clearly inferior player.

Barnes is having the better season but come on Pascal is still the superior scorer. Two players can average same ppg and one can still be a better scorer due to how he gets his shot, the shots he takes and how he is defended.

Pascal is currently still the better scorer and is defended as such.

Edit. Bam is averaging more points than Scottie/Pascal. Who do you think is the better scorer?

Scottie is putting up the same points on better efficiency from multiple places on the floor, he scores in a more diverse manner, that is a better scorer. Siakam routinely gets shut down against any half decent paint defence, Scottie does not, because he is capable of scoring from multiple places on the court.

I don't consider JJ reddick a great scorer, I consider him a 3pt shooter.

Siakam shot chart


Scottie shot chart


If you take away the inside game, Scottie can still score. If you take away the inside game for Siakam, he is dead weight. Yes, Siakam is a better ISO player, that's great for the total 48 ISO possessions he's had this season, out of the 479 FGAs this season.

Scottie is a WAY better 3pt shooter, and that has been great, since 162 of his total 476 FGA have been 3's. Scottie is flat out a more versatile scorer and more efficient. That is a better scorer to me, Scottie has shown many times in his career to be capable of taking over games, Siakam has shown many times in his career that he crumbles in the clutch because defences tighten up, and paint play is more difficult.

How have we all been watching him play for 9 years, and not gathered this? Siakam exploits weak paint defence, and bad teams, he is not a go to scorer.

Siakam clutch FG%
2022 36.2%
2021 40%
2020 35%

Getting a bucket means in ALL situations.

[mihaic]

2-28. That's not a Rudy Gay boxscore, that's the Detroit Piss-for-Rizz-stons W-L record.

I call them Pissed-on's. Sounds like Pistons. And they were certainly pissed on this season so far.

[YogurtProducer]

Then maybe he should be going out and getting more buckets, strange that the clearly better scorer, that he can only manage 0.6ppg more than the clearly inferior player.

Barnes is having the better season but come on Pascal is still the superior scorer. Two players can average same ppg and one can still be a better scorer due to how he gets his shot, the shots he takes and how he is defended.

Pascal is currently still the better scorer and is defended as such.

Edit. Bam is averaging more points than Scottie/Pascal. Who do you think is the better scorer?

Scottie is putting up the same points on better efficiency from multiple places on the floor, he scores in a more diverse manner, that is a better scorer. Siakam routinely gets shut down against any half decent paint defence, Scottie does not, because he is capable of scoring from multiple places on the court.

I don't consider JJ reddick a great scorer, I consider him a 3pt shooter.

Siakam shot chart


Scottie shot chart


If you take away the inside game, Scottie can still score. If you take away the inside game for Siakam, he is dead weight. Yes, Siakam is a better ISO player, that's great for the total 48 ISO possessions he's had this season, out of the 479 FGAs this season.

Scottie is a WAY better 3pt shooter, and that has been great, since 162 of his total 476 FGA have been 3's. Scottie is flat out a more versatile scorer and more efficient. That is a better scorer to me, Scottie has shown many times in his career to be capable of taking over games, Siakam has shown many times in his career that he crumbles in the clutch because defences tighten up, and paint play is more difficult.

How have we all been watching him play for 9 years, and not gathered this? Siakam exploits weak paint defence, and bad teams, he is not a go to scorer.

Siakam clutch FG%
2022 36.2%
2021 40%
2020 35%

Getting a bucket means in ALL situations.

Siakam is literally superior everywhere outside of the 3 point shot.

Scottie without a 3 point shot is an inefficient player as well. I did not realize when comparing players we just take away their best trait and then conclude they suck?

[mihaic]

If you take away the inside game, Scottie can still score. If you take away the inside game for Siakam, he is dead weight. Yes, Siakam is a better ISO player, that's great for the total 48 ISO possessions he's had this season, out of the 479 FGAs this season.

Scottie is a WAY better 3pt shooter, and
Siakam clutch FG%
2022 36.2%
2021 40%
2020 35%

Getting a bucket means in ALL situations.

What's the Scottie FG in the clutch? For comparison. Thanks.

Personally, and I don't want to get in the debate above, I think Pascal volume inside the paint in the first 3 quarters is needed, as Scottie provides scoring at the moment in bursts only.

If we trade Pascal we need to replace that, perhaps a scoring type (Lavine type of player?) and move OG to PF. Or trade OG instead of Pascal.

[Scase]

this pitting one guy against another is straight up junior high sh t. so dumb.

Agreed. Both are great players. You can acknowledge they don't really fit together and still be reasonable in your takes.

Beautiful, you agree with

pitting one guy against another is straight up junior high sh t

While also being the one to specifically be the one bringing up Barnes in a discussion that was 100% only about Siakam.

People taking victory laps about the lineup change like we didn't just put up 132 on the team that allows the most points per game lol.

Only thing the lineup change did, was showed just how unnecessary Siakam is.

Right, we didn't need Pascal's 22 points and 11 assists tonight

To be fair, against Washington we probably didn’t

It is hilarious seeing all the hype for Scottie and how amazing he is when Siakam is casually doing almost the exact same stuff for 5 seasons now and Siakam is “unnecessary”.

As far as I am concerned, outside of purposely getting worse, a below average offensive team needs its best scorer

That's some grade A hypocrisy, at least you are consistent, I'll give you that.