Peak only - Kawhi vs Kobe

[JustBuzzin]

Peak easily Kawhi, career Kobe and it ain't close.

Nah give me peak Kobe.

More rings and the better player.

Y'all must forgot who Kobe is.

#MambaMentality

You can only win 1 ring in your peak season....you can't have two. That's not a peak...

Peak Kobe would cook Peak Kawhi.

Kawhi owned LeBron not Kobe.

Give me Kobe over Kawhi.

[Cubbies2120]

This is why children and neck beards votes don’t matter in comparison to real ballers. Kawhi is an amazing player but to put him over peak Kobe is a freaking joke. Y’all should be ashamed lol

Hmm, take Kawhi, a guy who was 'the guy' on multiple teams and with multiple coaches under multiple systems...

Or Kobe, the guy who was successful as a 2nd option, under the same coach, same system...

Kawhi's Raptors run puts to shame anything Kobe has done. If we're talking PEAK ONLY, it's Kawhi.

If you're talking PRIME, it's Kobe.

You can debate the points, or run from the argument ("cHiLdReN aNd nEcKbEarDs") and refuse to elaborate...

[Cubbies2120]

Nah give me peak Kobe.

More rings and the better player.

Y'all must forgot who Kobe is.

#MambaMentality

You can only win 1 ring in your peak season....you can't have two. That's not a peak...

Peak Kobe would cook Peak Kawhi.

Kawhi owned LeBron not Kobe.

Give me Kobe over Kawhi.

Kobe struggled to remain above league average TS% during his peak.
Kawhi is the perfect player to guard Kobe, too...better than Bowen, better than any perimeter defender (other than a locked in Jordan...and I'm not talking about the 35 year old Kobe played against )

Give me Kawhi if it's for one season (PEAK), Kobe if it's for multiple (PRIME).

Thread's about peak, not prime.

[GYK]

Peak Kobe for me.
But Kawhi is as elite as they come from 17-20 Kawhi is a monster. 26/7/4 1st team defender. His defense and scoring style(midrange) is extremely important here too. It’s just an amazing counter against an opposing star.

[JustBuzzin]

You can only win 1 ring in your peak season....you can't have two. That's not a peak...

Peak Kobe would cook Peak Kawhi.

Kawhi owned LeBron not Kobe.

Give me Kobe over Kawhi.

Kobe struggled to remain above league average TS% during his peak.
Kawhi is the perfect player to guard Kobe, too...better than Bowen, better than any perimeter defender (other than a locked in Jordan...and I'm not talking about the 35 year old Kobe played against )

Give me Kawhi if it's for one season (PEAK), Kobe if it's for multiple (PRIME).

Thread's about peak, not prime.

You can pick Kawhi all you want. I'm sticking with Kobe.

Peak Kobe was unguardable. Kawhi defense was great, but offense beats great defense every time. There is no such thing as a shut down defender.

[JayMKE]

Key word here is peak so I would say Kawhi but I'd pick Kobe over him every day for his longevity & leadership

[Sixerscan]

Kawhi’s 2019 run was significantly better *offensively* than any playoff run Kobe had. The guy was like the terminator drilling midrange over elite defenders like they weren’t even there.

Kobe was an extremely impressive player in that he would take extremely difficult shots and make them more than you would expect, but Kawhi would just take a dribble and nail a shot in your face.

[dhsilv2]

Nah give me peak Kobe.

More rings and the better player.

Y'all must forgot who Kobe is.

#MambaMentality

You can only win 1 ring in your peak season....you can't have two. That's not a peak...

Peak Kobe would cook Peak Kawhi.

Kawhi owned LeBron not Kobe.

Give me Kobe over Kawhi.

I'm not into celebrity cooking channels. But peak Leonard, as a fact, was a more impactful and better basketball player by any metric or method we use.

[JShuttlesworth]

I'm biased, but I'll take Kawhi.

[turnaroundJ]

interesting, very close imo. kobe has higher highs due to the inconsistent nature of his scoring binges. but he's one of those guys who you can't really stop when he's on. when he's bad he was bad though. kawhi is relentless and much more consistent. also much more physically imposing. peak scoring kawhi isn't the same as peak defender kawhi.

i'm not sure if kawhi makes it to the finals in 2008 with that lakers squad without bynum and ariza. radmanovic was getting heavy minutes lol. leadership and playmaking sets them apart imo. but i could easily flip my choice...

[dantas]

Kobe.

Kawhi was incredible in Toronto, but Eastern Conference is easier. I think Kobe faced better teams in his rings.

[iggymcfrack]

Offense is close. Defense is Kawhi by a MILE.

Do you consider Kobe's peak like 06-08 or 01-03? Because I'm not sure 01-03 kobe wasn't on Raptor's Leonard's level on defense. The gap there is offense. Leonard was just better.

I consider Kobe’s Peak to be 2009. But at Kobe’s defensive peak, I’d still say he was probably worth maybe a third of what Kawhi was worth over an average player defensively. Kobe at his peak was a very good defender who could occasionally sniff greatness on key possessions in the playoffs. Peak Kawhi was a freak. He’s probably the only perimeter volume scorer in history who could provide the defensive value of an elite big. He was a one man wrecking crew.

[dhsilv2]

Offense is close. Defense is Kawhi by a MILE.

Do you consider Kobe's peak like 06-08 or 01-03? Because I'm not sure 01-03 kobe wasn't on Raptor's Leonard's level on defense. The gap there is offense. Leonard was just better.

I consider Kobe’s Peak to be 2009. But at Kobe’s defensive peak, I’d still say he was probably worth maybe a third of what Kawhi was worth over an average player defensively. Kobe at his peak was a very good defender who could occasionally sniff greatness on key possessions in the playoffs. Peak Kawhi was a freak. He’s probably the only perimeter volume scorer in history who could provide the defensive value of an elite big. He was a one man wrecking crew.

Leonard's defense by 2017 wasn't remotely elite though. The spurs were famously not just worse defensively with Leonard on the floor, but astonishingly worse. Now, I think that's mostly noise, but to claim he was having big man level defensive impact that year simply isn't supported with any metrics or scouting work we've seen.

But ok if you're talking 2009 Kobe...which I can't see as being his peak, but ok. By then he played defense only in small batches in the 4ths. First 3peet Kobe however was an elite defender from start to finish. Young Kobe was a really strong on and off ball defender. His off ball defense really dropped off by 2005 or so.

[TheGeneral99]

Kawhi.

Playoff Kawhi is in the GOAT conversation of production with off the chart efficiency.

2017 - 28, 8 and 5 on 53%fg and 46%3fg.
2019 - 31, 9 and 4 on 49%fg and 39%3fg.
2020 - 28, 9 and 6 on 49%fg and 33%3fg (slightly reduced efficiency in the bubble).
2021 - 30, 8 and 4 on 57%fg and 39%3fg (got hurt in playoffs).
2022 - 35, 7 and 6 on 55%fg and 60%3fg (got hurt in playoffs).


Compare that to peak Kobe between 2007-2010

2007 - 33, 5 and 5 on 46%fg and 36%3fg.
2008 - 30, 6 and 6 on 48%fg and 30%3fg.
2009 - 30, 5 and 6 on 46%fg and 35%3fg.
2010 - 29, 6 and 6 on 46%fg and 37%3fg.

Kobe is great but Kawhi is just the more dominant and efficient player.

[dygaction]

Nah give me peak Kobe.

More rings and the better player.

Y'all must forgot who Kobe is.

#MambaMentality

You can only win 1 ring in your peak season....you can't have two. That's not a peak...

Peak Kobe would cook Peak Kawhi.

Kawhi owned LeBron not Kobe.

Give me Kobe over Kawhi.

isn't lebron bigger stronger and bettter than kobe?

[Sixerscan]

Do you consider Kobe's peak like 06-08 or 01-03? Because I'm not sure 01-03 kobe wasn't on Raptor's Leonard's level on defense. The gap there is offense. Leonard was just better.

I consider Kobe’s Peak to be 2009. But at Kobe’s defensive peak, I’d still say he was probably worth maybe a third of what Kawhi was worth over an average player defensively. Kobe at his peak was a very good defender who could occasionally sniff greatness on key possessions in the playoffs. Peak Kawhi was a freak. He’s probably the only perimeter volume scorer in history who could provide the defensive value of an elite big. He was a one man wrecking crew.

Leonard's defense by 2017 wasn't remotely elite though. The spurs were famously not just worse defensively with Leonard on the floor, but astonishingly worse. Now, I think that's mostly noise, but to claim he was having big man level defensive impact that year simply isn't supported with any metrics or scouting work we've seen.

But ok if you're talking 2009 Kobe...which I can't see as being his peak, but ok. By then he played defense only in small batches in the 4ths. First 3peet Kobe however was an elite defender from start to finish. Young Kobe was a really strong on and off ball defender. His off ball defense really dropped off by 2005 or so.

Yeah I think everyone realizes that 2017 number was mostly three point variance, just like no one brings up as a serious argument that the 2002 Lakers had a better net rating (not just defense, overall) with Kobe off the court. The 2017 Spurs were one of the best (pick a number) regular season teams we’ve seen this century, any on/off stuff is picking nits. Their defensive rating with Kawhi on the court was still better than any team in the league but 2 (counting the Spurs so really just the Durant warriors).

[dhsilv2]

I consider Kobe’s Peak to be 2009. But at Kobe’s defensive peak, I’d still say he was probably worth maybe a third of what Kawhi was worth over an average player defensively. Kobe at his peak was a very good defender who could occasionally sniff greatness on key possessions in the playoffs. Peak Kawhi was a freak. He’s probably the only perimeter volume scorer in history who could provide the defensive value of an elite big. He was a one man wrecking crew.

Leonard's defense by 2017 wasn't remotely elite though. The spurs were famously not just worse defensively with Leonard on the floor, but astonishingly worse. Now, I think that's mostly noise, but to claim he was having big man level defensive impact that year simply isn't supported with any metrics or scouting work we've seen.

But ok if you're talking 2009 Kobe...which I can't see as being his peak, but ok. By then he played defense only in small batches in the 4ths. First 3peet Kobe however was an elite defender from start to finish. Young Kobe was a really strong on and off ball defender. His off ball defense really dropped off by 2005 or so.

Yeah I think everyone realizes that 2017 number was mostly three point variance, just like no one brings up as a serious argument that the 2002 Lakers had a better net rating (not just defense, overall) with Kobe off the court. The 2017 Spurs were one of the best (pick a number) regular season teams we’ve seen this century, any on/off stuff is picking nits. Their defensive rating with Kawhi on the court was still better than any team in the league but 2 (counting the Spurs so really just the Durant warriors).

It was mostly noise/luck for sure. Though you're a bit off. With Leonard on the floor they were like 5th (warriors, jazz, hawks, and heat were better) plus them. But even if you take LEBRON that year which is the "Luck adjusted, RAPM", Leonard's defense just grades out pretty good. His D-LEBRON is just below CP3's (who's a great guard defender). The point was just that we can't make a solid stats based case and I don't think anyone who's tried to break down his actual D that year has really argued he was much more than a solid wing. Again in the CP3, Butler tier...which is really good.

[One_and_Done]

Another thing to note is penalising a guy for a random cheap shot in the WCFs is rewarding a guy who never made it that far to begin with. If 2006 Kobe made the WCFs maybe he'd get cheap shot too, we'll just never know because he didn't make it that far.

[The Servant]

Probably Kobe. Looking at 2019 as peak Kawhi and 2009 as Kobes peak run. Kawhis got the efficiency advantage but In a league with overall more scoring/efficiency. Kobe has the edge in playmaking. Kawhi significantly better defensively, but even that run he was starting to slow down by the end of it (which makes it harder to answer what is 'peak Kawhi')

Yep, most people will conflate dpoy Leonard with scorer version when they didn't really overlap, I think 2017 was his best year in that regard.. Kobe for all his chuckery was an ironman, 2019 raptors had a deep team that gave him plenty of rest... Maybe on the 2009 lakers they don't survive while he's out...

Offensive Kawhi put up similar numbers to KD's peak on offence, but we only saw peak Kawhi Offensive version for a few hundred games.

Dpoy Kawhi put up much smaller numbers in a much smaller offensive load. People in hindsight put them together which was never the case. During his peak offence his defence was closer to top 15 defender in the league, not DPOY, similar to KD on the Warriors.

[Rust_Cohle]

You can't punish a guy for making it to the WCFs and getting cheap shot. If someone hit Kobe with a crowbar in the finals it wouldn't indicate he lacked durability that season.

except kawhi in 2017 only played 2474 minutes, 2903 with playoffs. for most star players that is a low number.

and even before the cheap shot, he was already hobbling. already had missed game 6 vs houston.

and well kobe has been targeted too. jalen rose did the same as zaza in the 2000 finals, kobe missed a game, came back and won game 4 with shaq fouled out.

2017 warriors >>>>> 2000 pacers

And Kobe was good in game 4, but shaq’s 36 points and 21 rebounds were easily best of the game