Who were the top five 6’ 3” and under foul drawers of all time?

SinceGatlingWasARookie · Post #1 » by **SinceGatlingWasARookie** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 3:49 am

Owly · Post #2 » by **Owly** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:17 am

Depends what you mean, how you'd measure.

Eyeballing it, among players with 500 minutes by fta/2ptfga (just one measure easily to hand, not saying it's perfect or the best) the top few I see that I recognize as at or under 6'3" are ...

Al Cervi
Chauncey Billups
Jim Les

The thing is Cervi is playing a long time ago under different rules (and has limited NBA minutes), whilst Billups to an extent but especially Les benefit from the 3pt exclusion. It is tough to draw legit fouls on those ... but someone like Les who's rarely shooting 2s ... one suspects he shot tech for his team when on ... one wonders how much he's actually drawing. So find a measure you trust and apply context.

For playoffs the top of the list is very big heavy (same criteria) but the first guys I noticed as below are
Dave Twardzik
Bobby Wanzer
George King (50s, 60s version)

[edit]
require 1000 fta for the first category and it's now
Billups
Lowry
Twardzik
Lou Williams

Another caveat, beyond rules, existence of 3pt line outlined above [it was there somewhat implicitly via rules] but era norms will vary.

SilentA · Post #3 » by **SilentA** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 9:28 am

Depends on definition of being a "top foul drawer", but Allen Iverson at career 8.9 FTA per game and like 6'0" is probably #1. Unless you're talking about "foul drawing efficiency ratio" of FGA vs FTA or something. Not sure if non-free throw resulting foul drawing stats are publicly available.

Post #4 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 3:30 pm

There's also the issue of who is 6'3 since before the 70s (can't remember the actual year), players were measured in stocking feet and in college and the pros just went with it, then they started measuring in shoes which added 1-2" to every player's listed height (maybe more if you are Dennis Rodman and wear high heeled sneakers -- joke). So in the Iverson category of "shoots a lot so draws a lot of fouls," Jerry West drew 9.4 FTA/game for his career but really should be regarded as 6'4 and ineligible even though B-R.com lists him at 6'3.

pancakes3 · Post #5 » by **pancakes3** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 4:52 pm

shout out to 2017 IT though

JimmyFromNz · Post #6 » by **JimmyFromNz** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:29 pm

Allen Iverson surely.

Love the 2017 IT reference.

Trae Young, regardless of the aesthetics.

Tiny Archibald.

Ja Morant's athleticism alone puts him high in this category for me.

Small guards who are putting significant pressure on paint defenses and the rim would take priority over some of the names the numbers have thrown up above.

Post #7 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:44 pm

Top 5 guys in NBA history (FTA/game career) are Wilt, Pettit, Embiid, West, Shaq.

If you consider West to fit the OP, he'd be the leader, if not it's Iverson. No other guys smaller than James Harden/Adrian Dantley in the top 25 and I haven't got the numbers further than that.

EmpireFalls · Post #8 » by **EmpireFalls** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:53 pm

Trae definitely deserves a top 5 spot here.

Post #9 » by **penbeast0** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:22 am

Running it through a seasonal, rather than a career, sieve for seasons with over 2000 minutes player, the highest FTA/minute rate by a player listed at 6'2 or under.

1. Jerry West 66
2. West 62
3. World B Free 80
4. Free 79
5. Free 78
6. Free 81
7. Allen Iverson 06
8. Damian Lillard 23
9. Trae Young 20
10. Steve Chubin 68
11. Mack Calvin 73
12. Jerry West 65

It seems the winner is the previously unmentioned World B Free with Jerry West the other serious contender. Then a few names that seem logical in AI, Lillard, and Young, with Chubin and Calvin from the ABA.

SinceGatlingWasARookie · Post #10 » by **SinceGatlingWasARookie** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 9:46 am

penbeast0 wrote:Running it through a seasonal, rather than a career, sieve for seasons with over 2000 minutes player, the highest FTA/minute rate by a player listed at 6'2 or under.

1. Jerry West 66
2. West 62
3. World B Free 80
4. Free 79
5. Free 78
6. Free 81
7. Allen Iverson 06
8. Damian Lillard 23
9. Trae Young 20
10. Steve Chubin 68
11. Mack Calvin 73
12. Jerry West 65

It seems the winner is the previously unmentioned World B Free with Jerry West the other serious contender. Then a few names that seem logical in AI, Lillard, and Young, with Chubin and Calvin from the ABA.

World B Free does not get remembered much but he was a noteworthy player. But he was on bad Clipper teams.

DR said of pre injury 70s Archibald that Archibald was the only NBA player that he would pay money to watch play basketball. There is almost no surviving film of peak Archibald. There is an All Star game. There is a playoff gave vs the Bulls but Archibald was playing injured and Norm Van Lear shut Archibald down.

I enjoyed watching the post injury 2nd rate version of Archibald with the Celtics.

World B Free was not that entertaining to me like Archibald was but World B Free was very very good at what he did.

Post #11 » by **penbeast0** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 1:23 pm

Think that always got me about Free and his fouls is that I remember him as as mainly a jump shooter, rather than a slasher. You don't expect jump shooters to draw fouls the way Free did but he really loved shooting through contact and I've seen him delay an open shot to draw his defender, just to score in his face. I always enjoyed watching him play though prime Tiny was a sight indeed.

kcktiny · Post #12 » by **kcktiny** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 5:42 am

World B Free does not get remembered much but he was a noteworthy player.

Was absolutely one of the best scorers in the league for quite a while.

Over the 8 year period of 1978-79 to 1985-86 (8 seasons) he had the 4th highest per game scoring average at 24.7 pts/g. Only Dantley, Gervin, and Malone scored higher.

Over that same time he attempted the 3rd most FTAs (8.4 FTA/g). Only Malone and Dantley attempted more. This despite being just 6-2 in height. He, Tiny, and Iverson are the only players 6-2 or shorter to ever attempt 800+ FTAs in a season.

World B Free was not that entertaining to me like Archibald was but World B Free was very very good at what he did.

Think that always got me about Free and his fouls is that I remember him as as mainly a jump shooter, rather than a slasher.

Loved watching World play. To me he was very entertaining. Young Nate was fun to watch because he was so quick, and despite being just 5-11 he could get to the basket against anyone (including both Wilt and Kareem).

World was not quick like Tiny but he was every bit the slasher Archibald was, and man could he leap. Not like a David Thompson, but try watching some San Diego Clippers or Golden State Warriors games from the late 70s/early 80s. He got big time height on his jump shot and when he would go to the rim he was always drawing contact getting as high as he could.

And the arc on his jump shot was h-i-g-h, like a Purvis Short rainbow jumper:

Watch on YouTube

SinceGatlingWasARookie · Post #13 » by **SinceGatlingWasARookie** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:05 am

kcktiny wrote:
World B Free does not get remembered much but he was a noteworthy player.

Was absolutely one of the best scorers in the league for quite a while.

Over the 8 year period of 1978-79 to 1985-86 (8 seasons) he had the 4th highest per game scoring average at 24.7 pts/g. Only Dantley, Gervin, and Malone scored higher.

Over that same time he attempted the 3rd most FTAs (8.4 FTA/g). Only Malone and Dantley attempted more. This despite being just 6-2 in height. He, Tiny, and Iverson are the only players 6-2 or shorter to ever attempt 800+ FTAs in a season.

World B Free was not that entertaining to me like Archibald was but World B Free was very very good at what he did.

Think that always got me about Free and his fouls is that I remember him as as mainly a jump shooter, rather than a slasher.

Loved watching World play. To me he was very entertaining. Young Nate was fun to watch because he was so quick, and despite being just 5-11 he could get to the basket against anyone (including both Wilt and Kareem).

World was not quick like Tiny but he was every bit the slasher Archibald was, and man could he leap. Not like a David Thompson, but try watching some San Diego Clippers or Golden State Warriors games from the late 70s/early 80s. He got big time height on his jump shot and when he would go to the rim he was always drawing contact getting as high as he could.

And the arc on his jump shot was h-i-g-h, like a Purvis Short rainbow jumper:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Thanks for the videos.

Based on these 3 videos Free is not doing anything special to draw fouls. No Harden or Dantley tricks are being used to draw fouls.

Free shoots a lot and must be guarded. Free is confident that he can protect the ball in traffic and shoots through the seems in the defense in trafic. He does not really jump into the defenders much. He jumped into Kareem a few times to protect the ball for a shot but was not fishing for a foul call.

Perhaps being a super high volume shooter accounts for most of his foul draws.

Owly · Post #14 » by **Owly** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 4:50 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Thanks for the videos.

Based on these 3 videos Free is not doing anything special to draw fouls. No Harden or Dantley tricks are being used to draw fouls.

Free shoots a lot and must be guarded. Free is confident that he can protect the ball in traffic and shoots through the seems in the defense in trafic. He does not really jump into the defenders much. He jumped into Kareem a few times to protect the ball for a shot but was not fishing for a foul call.

Perhaps being a super high volume shooter accounts for most of his foul draws.

Based on my reading (rather than observation) Free, like Reggie Miller after him, was somewhat known for drawing fouls on his jumpers by kicking out his legs.

kcktiny · Post #15 » by **kcktiny** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:25 pm

Based on these 3 videos Free is not doing anything special to draw fouls.

Perhaps, but his whole game during his career was he drove to the basket a ton. He was drawing fouls at per minute rates similar to Adrian Dantley and David Thompson as far back as 1976-77.

He jumped into Kareem a few times to protect the ball for a shot but was not fishing for a foul call.

World was always driving to the basket with the sole intent of drawing contact. It was his MO. Even when he had a clear lane he would often slow up to let defenders catch up to him just to bait them into a foul.

From 1976-77 to 1985-86 Free attempted 5931 FTAs (8.0 FTA/g, 9.6 FTA/40min). No other player 6-3 or shorter during that decade attempted more than 2900 FTAs (Gus Williams), 6-5 or shorter more than 3870 FTAs (Dennis Johnson).

He was simply one of the very best guards in league history when it came to drawing fouls, regardless of size.

Based on my reading (rather than observation) Free, like Reggie Miller after him, was somewhat known for drawing fouls on his jumpers by kicking out his legs.

Yes he did do this. But he literally would stretch both legs and both arms way out, like a gale force wind had hit him.