Worst Return on Investment in NBA?

[Residual-Heat]

sure we had some injuries this season that kept our highest paid players out, but all in all the Magic are 29th in payroll and 9th in wins/losses.

Isaac is unguaranteed, WCJ is still a decent and easily moveable contract, Harris and Fultz are expiring.

[eyriq]

I don't get the "bad thread" takes. The thread clearly illustrates that we are heavily invested in injury prone players. You can argue that this investment made sense during the tank. It no longer makes sense. I'd expect Weltman is going to address this by moving on from some of these players.

“Heavily invested” here would look more like 2-3 yrs left on these contracts. This is literally just the tail end of the investment that you just said made sense during the tank. If anything, Weltman maybe got caught surprised with the process speeding up the by a season.

How is this a “dumb thread” or “bad take” lmao.

I swear some of you are the most delusional homers, which I completely get considering this is a Magic board.

How many other franchises have their top 3-4 highest paid players missing the majority of seasons games or not contributing heavily?

Wtf cares? Other franchises are in completely different situations. How many other franchises have their two core pieces being third and second yr players on rookie contracts?

Seeing this as the tapering off of the last bit of our tanking process doesn’t make anyone a “delusional homer”, it’s the fairly predictable progression of a tanking team striking rebuild gold in two consecutive drafts.

I don't read the OP as presenting a counter factual argument to critique Weltman. I read it as an argument for where we should focus our efforts as we build around Franchero.

If you wanted to use the investment in injury prone players as a critique you certainly could. Knightro and MagicMatic made the case that we should have traded Fultz last season, and have said Weltman should be more assertive. They certainly could have moved on from those injury prone players and replaced them before the season started. Instead of having so much dead money not contributing to our success, we could be in a much better position this year.

[VFX]

I don't get the "bad thread" takes. The thread clearly illustrates that we are heavily invested in injury prone players. You can argue that this investment made sense during the tank. It no longer makes sense. I'd expect Weltman is going to address this by moving on from some of these players.

“Heavily invested” here would look more like 2-3 yrs left on these contracts. This is literally just the tail end of the investment that you just said made sense during the tank. If anything, Weltman maybe got caught surprised with the process speeding up the by a season.

How is this a “dumb thread” or “bad take” lmao.

I swear some of you are the most delusional homers, which I completely get considering this is a Magic board.

How many other franchises have their top 3-4 highest paid players missing the majority of seasons games or not contributing heavily?

Wtf cares? Other franchises are in completely different situations. How many other franchises have their two core pieces being third and second yr players on rookie contracts?

Seeing this as the tapering off of the last bit of our tanking process doesn’t make anyone a “delusional homer”, it’s the fairly predictable progression of a tanking team striking rebuild gold in two consecutive drafts.

I don't read the OP as presenting a counter factual argument to critique Weltman. I read it as an argument for where we should focus our efforts as we build around Franchero.

If you wanted to use the investment in injury prone players as a critique you certainly could. Knightro and MagicMatic made the case that we should have traded Fultz last season, and have said Weltman should be more assertive. They certainly could have moved on from those injury prone players and replaced them before the season started. Instead of having so much dead money not contributing to our success, we could be in a much better position this year.

Yes. The argument was that an expiring Fultz has less value than one with 1.5 to 2 seasons left. That’s just factual based on how contracts work. My position hasn’t changed since last year and this offseason.

Isaac is what he is. You either cater entirely to him or he gives you nothing. That’s the cost of doing business with guys that barely earned their contracts and aren’t tradeable because teams want players that see the floor.

If anything, the OP is just pointing out the inevitable. It’s not really an argument. The numbers and production are there if you have watched the last 10-20 games lol.

[zaymon]

Crucial question. Do we really want to be in a better position this year ? We are not winning championship sorry to write it. Having injury prone players on short contracts is a way to improve our draft position without obvious tanking. I dont think it will happen much longer. Also its not so easy to get minutes for us right now. Injuries are safe way to play everyone and improve chemistry

[drsd]

sure we had some injuries this season that kept our highest paid players out, but all in all the Magic are 29th in payroll and 9th in wins/losses.

Isaac is unguaranteed, WCJ is still a decent and easily moveable contract, Harris and Fultz are expiring.

And-1

To add: Orlando has had to spend money on "someone". There are league min salary lines. The Magic has given big contracts to get the team to the floor in a way that has not i) hurt the ability to tank post buddyball and ii) not effected the ability to get free agents moving forward.

[VFX]

Having injury prone players on short contracts is a way to improve our draft position without obvious tanking. Also its not so easy to get minutes for us right now. Injuries are safe way to play everyone and improve chemistry

How? These guys aren’t playing and have little trade value. They aren’t positive assets, don’t contribute to wins, and Orlando is winning in spite of them. The Magic don’t really need more youth to develop via draft.

It’s not easy to get minutes, but when guys like Okeke and Houstan are minutes and Paolo/Franz have to play the entire game to remain competitive it’s not ideal when the money can be used elsewhere to help them.

It’s kinda funny to read endless pages of trade proposals of us giving our trash for other teams assets. The value just isn’t there and Orlando will now just have to wait hoping Free Agency provides something. I’d bet these guys expire instead of the off chance we actually got something back for them.

[Skybox]

sure we had some injuries this season that kept our highest paid players out, but all in all the Magic are 29th in payroll and 9th in wins/losses.

Isaac is unguaranteed, WCJ is still a decent and easily moveable contract, Harris and Fultz are expiring.

And-1

To add: Orlando has had to spend money on "someone". There are league min salary lines. The Magic has given big contracts to get the team to the floor in a way that has not i) hurt the ability to tank post buddyball and ii) not effected the ability to get free agents moving forward.

That is all true...but the grace period is coming to an end. Aren't Franz & Suggs both due for an extension discussion this summer? With Paolo's max coming the summer after...those $17m rebuild period "black holes" are going to look like peanuts compared to what's coming quickly...This is the time to make a move. Financial flexibility will be a lot harder to come by in the next few years.

Not panic mode...there is this summer...but that's it. I hope they recognize when they have good players and don't focus too much on bargain hunting - one example would be to move Suggs because Black is looking pretty good and has a couple more years of rookie contract...Nobody's untouchable, but now is the time to take swings and maybe still have a year or two to un-do or refine the situations they create (if desired).

[BadMofoPimp]

Crazy part is people want 2 of the worst injury prone players to stay here.

But, Isaac should be starting !!!!

[MasterGMer]

Our FO actually has been very successful in roster construction. We are the second youngest team in the league (if I am not mistaken) plus we are possibly going to have 65M in cap space next summer which sets up for FA plus Franz and Suggs extensions.

The FO built the second most scoring bench group in the league plus Franz is only 23 and Paolo is only 21.

That is success. If we make the Playoff this year, the sky is the limit for this team. Gonna be a fun postseason!

[drsd]

That is all true...but the grace period is coming to an end. Aren't Franz & Suggs both due for an extension discussion this summer? With Paolo's max coming the summer after...those $17m rebuild period "black holes" are going to look like peanuts compared to what's coming quickly...This is the time to make a move. Financial flexibility will be a lot harder to come by in the next few years.

Not panic mode...there is this summer...but that's it. I hope they recognize when they have good players and don't focus too much on bargain hunting - one example would be to move Suggs because Black is looking pretty good and has a couple more years of rookie contract...Nobody's untouchable, but now is the time to take swings and maybe still have a year or two to un-do or refine the situations they create (if desired).

And-1

To add: F-Wagner will get at least 30M for 5 (a minimum 150M deal) THIS off-season!

..

[pepe1991]

Gotta be Payton or Bamba.

Payton - PG who can't shoot, drafted after Gordon and Oladipo, who both struggled with shooting, added on roster made out of all non shooters.

Bamba- . This one was just depressing. From first weeks of a rookie season it was clear it will be investment that goes nowhere.

[orlando_joe]

Having injury prone players on short contracts is a way to improve our draft position without obvious tanking. Also its not so easy to get minutes for us right now. Injuries are safe way to play everyone and improve chemistry

How? These guys aren’t playing and have little trade value. They aren’t positive assets, don’t contribute to wins, and Orlando is winning in spite of them. The Magic don’t really need more youth to develop via draft.

It’s not easy to get minutes, but when guys like Okeke and Houstan are minutes and Paolo/Franz have to play the entire game to remain competitive it’s not ideal when the money can be used elsewhere to help them.

It’s kinda funny to read endless pages of trade proposals of us giving our trash for other teams assets. The value just isn’t there and Orlando will now just have to wait hoping Free Agency provides something. I’d bet these guys expire instead of the off chance we actually got something back for them.

magic were never going to get much value for them ...lol...what good is 1 or 2 more 2nd rd picks with bad money coming back ..if they are so bad why would other team give something of value???? just to funny to me..of course they will just expire

[JoshuaPotter]

Fultz + Isaac at the time are obvious high risk / high reward players if they came back to form after injury. I do not think anyone can convince me otherwise. They obviously have outlived usefulness prematurely based on our record. I will credit JI and Ingles limited quality minutes to contributing to our wins. I don't think that can be denied. Yet two things can be true at the same time. Injuries have destroyed their career and I do not think their value can be restored at this point.

To recap the situation I see
G Harris - No clue man. At this point, I am asking myself why we didn't keep Ross as I think he would have been a better Orlando Magic bench presence for this young team.

Fultz - At this point. Does he need surgery or is it something else? I don't get it. Unless he comes back and crushes it with a 30ppg night with 10 ast I don't think any team will see him as anything other then an expiring DNP-CD

JI - Can't recover his market value if he can't play. Career still has hope. He could become a 10-15mpg journeyman where teams feel his impact what few games he plays.

Either additional by subtraction is going to happen by us letting them walk off into the sunset. Or we trade them for a veteran bench presence that helps the boys continue their development.

[JoshuaPotter]

magic were never going to get much value for them ...lol...what good is 1 or 2 more 2nd rd picks with bad money coming back ..if they are so bad why would other team give something of value???? just to funny to me..of course they will just expire

I ranted on the trade thread about this. There is no value presented that lands us a starting SG / PG for the next 7 years to pair with the team.

Your best bet, is to use them as expiring for yes, more future assets. But my hope would be to search for more positive role players enforcement. A couple lesser known "yes coach, whatever it takes to win coach, i'm a team player coach" types.

[VFX]

Having injury prone players on short contracts is a way to improve our draft position without obvious tanking. Also its not so easy to get minutes for us right now. Injuries are safe way to play everyone and improve chemistry

How? These guys aren’t playing and have little trade value. They aren’t positive assets, don’t contribute to wins, and Orlando is winning in spite of them. The Magic don’t really need more youth to develop via draft.

It’s not easy to get minutes, but when guys like Okeke and Houstan are minutes and Paolo/Franz have to play the entire game to remain competitive it’s not ideal when the money can be used elsewhere to help them.

It’s kinda funny to read endless pages of trade proposals of us giving our trash for other teams assets. The value just isn’t there and Orlando will now just have to wait hoping Free Agency provides something. I’d bet these guys expire instead of the off chance we actually got something back for them.

magic were never going to get much value for them ...lol...what good is 1 or 2 more 2nd rd picks with bad money coming back ..if they are so bad why would other team give something of value???? just to funny to me..of course they will just expire

Yes.

However, that wasn’t the case last season necessarily for the value with Fultz in particular. That value has vanished entirely now with another injury prone season as an expiring deal. Gary Harris could have been had for something as well last season before coming in and sucking as bad as he has this year. Isaac hasn’t had value in years and probably won’t until he retires to write books.

But yeah, you are correct that now there isn’t value to be had and the chances Orlando throws a bunch of injured overpaid garbage overboard for something like a starting caliber guard is likely 0% now.

[Skybox]

Not really financial, but it pains to think of the high selection of Bamba...I'd probably do it again and lose again

Imagine what an active 7' shot blocking, rebounding machine, who can hit open 3's at a high volume would look like next to Paolo & Franz. If only he delivered on his promise...he would be exactly what the NBA gods would design in a lab to play C for ORL in 23-24.

[Fortune Teller]

Worst thread?

What's wrong with it toolbox? I mean, is that necessary? It's relevant because all 4 players are injured again, all 4 have missed massive amounts of games this season, and this could have been addressed a long time ago. Next time I'll seek your approval before starting a thread since you are apparently the arbiter of which are good and which are bad.

[Fortune Teller]

Dude, sorry, but this thread is just silly.
Our old friend Evan Fournier is making 18M per and has been healthy for 3 years, just can't crack the rotation, how this kind of investment look for NY? How does Chicago feel about always ingured Lonzo Ball making 20M per, solid investment?
Try having some respect to players who got hurt playing for the Magic and now try to get back to form.

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You are cherry-picking a single player from 2 different rosters. The point is that *all four* of the four highest-paid players on this team can't stay on the court, and this has been continuing for years.

And I get that reading comprehension might not be your thing, but this isn't a criticism of the players, it's a criticism of the guys in the front office burning money on them.

[Skybox]

Worst thread?

What's wrong with it toolbox? I mean, is that necessary? It's relevant because all 4 players are injured again, all 4 have missed massive amounts of games this season, and this could have been addressed a long time ago. Next time I'll seek your approval before starting a thread since you are apparently the arbiter of which are good and which are bad.

Toolbox!

That's pretty good

[MasterGMer]

Besides this 4 players, what about our rookie contract players plus Wendell and Cole? We had to pay someone to remain minimum salary. These 4 players have risks but they are high rewards also. Plus I think this franchise value experience with this franchise a lot. Maybe that is why. Not a bad thread, but I disagree with you


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