ImageImageImageImageImage

RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics

Moderators: 7 Footer, Morris_Shatford, DG88, niQ, Duffman100, tsherkin, Reeko, lebron stopper, HiJiNX

User avatar
Anatomize
General Manager
Posts: 7,847
And1: 6,220
Joined: Jul 25, 2008

RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#1 » by Anatomize » Tue Jan 2, 2024 11:26 am

I didn't want this to get buried in the RJ Barrett thread as I'm genuinely always surprised that NBA players of a high caliber can have such poor shot mechanics.

I was sitting back watching the highlights on youtube, and this made shot by Barrett got me to sit up in my chair and go back/watch it in slow motion on .25 and pause step by step. I wanted to see why his shooting numbers have always been relatively poor and break down some of the issues I see in his mechanics.

For a team such as us that is starved for good shooters, we're still going to have spacing issues for the most part - this was less of an issue last night, but I think the problem will still rear its head in many future games until we shore up shooting completely (and that issue likely won't be fixed this year):

In the first image you can already see how far away and low his starting point is. It's well ahead out infront of his eyes instead of cocked closer/higher, that release point will make it hard to have an arc release because he's too far out infront of his head. It becomes more of a push shot rather than a naturally good/cocked high release. His toes also point away from the basket more to the right side while his upper body is pointing toward the basket (not a huge deal because he's still fairly square overall).

Image

In the second image, the ball is practically touching his forehead in a horizontal line - it's way too close and way too low. When you cock back, the ball should be slightly higher than your head by this point. He's essentially blocking his own vision to the basket in both the first and second screenshots.

Image

In the third image, while his body is completely vertical now - which is good, look at his left and right hands, they're almost touching at the top. When I shoot my left hand naturally drops down off the ball and it's almost completely guided by my right hand after release. His right hand should be dropped down below the elevation of his left hand, but they're touching at the apex.

Image

This is pronounced in the last image where you can see his right hand is still completely up after release, and his left wrist is going completely west. His follow through should be toward the basket, and instead his wrist is pointing the complete opposite way to the left (again this isn't an image pixelation thing, I watched this shot at full speed several times and you see his wrist just jut out left).

Image

His shooting form definitely seems fixable as he's fine vertically and fairly square, but I hope they notice some of these problems in his release and tell him to change his starting point as I can see him shooting a lot of line drive shots all season long unless it's addressed.

I watched him shoot a few practice shots as well the other day and saw him miss a couple and saw the same mechanical issues in that video from different angles.

(sorry about image sizes as the sites I used are resizing them!)
User avatar
XTC
General Manager
Posts: 8,683
And1: 8,738
Joined: Nov 09, 2005
 

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#2 » by XTC » Tue Jan 2, 2024 11:35 am

Toronto... where good shooters forget how to shoot, and where bad shooters get the green light to shoot #WeTheNorth
User avatar
Anatomize
General Manager
Posts: 7,847
And1: 6,220
Joined: Jul 25, 2008

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#3 » by Anatomize » Tue Jan 2, 2024 11:40 am

XTC wrote:Toronto... where good shooters forget how to shoot, and where bad shooters get the green light to shoot #WeTheNorth


Read on Twitter
?s=20

Saw someone post this in the Barrett thread. It completely makes sense why he's been struggling to shoot given what I'm seeing with his mechanics.
GreatWhiteStiff
RealGM
Posts: 15,255
And1: 12,678
Joined: Oct 17, 2011
Location: Overusing finna
 

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#4 » by GreatWhiteStiff » Tue Jan 2, 2024 11:54 am

If you want to see some more of his recent 3 point shots click the "3PA" for recent games on his nba.com page.

https://www.nba.com/player/1629628/rj-barrett
Image

Let's playin for 9th!

"OG puts the clamps on point guards like Trae Young." -DelAbbot
manjusaka
Pro Prospect
Posts: 876
And1: 583
Joined: Oct 25, 2017
   

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#5 » by manjusaka » Tue Jan 2, 2024 1:33 pm

Great stuff!!
User avatar
WuTang_CMB
RealGM
Posts: 41,000
And1: 51,471
Joined: Sep 26, 2017
   

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#6 » by WuTang_CMB » Tue Jan 2, 2024 2:05 pm

I noticed he is side arming his shot now. I hope they can rebuild him
vulture
Head Coach
Posts: 6,935
And1: 5,960
Joined: Oct 04, 2002
Location: At the Border

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#7 » by vulture » Tue Jan 2, 2024 2:05 pm

There is a world where they turn RJ into what he was his 2nd year. A guy who guards 2/3 positions, shoots corner 3s at 37% and that will help a lot. It requires Scottie to grow more offensively and pressure the rim because RJ is a better driver than him right now.
StopitLeo
RealGM
Posts: 12,388
And1: 6,825
Joined: Dec 13, 2001
 

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#8 » by StopitLeo » Tue Jan 2, 2024 2:16 pm

vulture wrote:There is a world where they turn RJ into what he was his 2nd year. A guy who guards 2/3 positions, shoots corner 3s at 37% and that will help a lot. It requires Scottie to grow more offensively and pressure the rim because RJ is a better driver than him right now.


He’s been good from the corners this year.

I’m sure they can clean things up for RJ and help with consistency but there are a lot of ways to make shots with odd mechanics (e.g. Reggie Miller crossed his wrists, Dame lets the ball roll in his shooting palm, etc.).
agkagk
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,075
And1: 2,091
Joined: Sep 03, 2011

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#9 » by agkagk » Tue Jan 2, 2024 2:26 pm

Anatomize wrote:I didn't want this to get buried in the RJ Barrett thread as I'm genuinely always surprised that NBA players of a high caliber can have such poor shot mechanics.

I was sitting back watching the highlights on youtube, and this made shot by Barrett got me to sit up in my chair and go back/watch it in slow motion on .25 and pause step by step. I wanted to see why his shooting numbers have always been relatively poor and break down some of the issues I see in his mechanics.

For a team such as us that is starved for good shooters, we're still going to have spacing issues for the most part - this was less of an issue last night, but I think the problem will still rear its head in many future games until we shore up shooting completely (and that issue likely won't be fixed this year):

In the first image you can already see how far away and low his starting point is. It's well ahead out infront of his eyes instead of cocked closer/higher, that release point will make it hard to have an arc release because he's too far out infront of his head. It becomes more of a push shot rather than a naturally good/cocked high release. His toes also point away from the basket more to the right side while his upper body is pointing toward the basket (not a huge deal because he's still fairly square overall).

Image

In the second image, the ball is practically touching his forehead in a horizontal line - it's way too close and way too low. When you cock back, the ball should be slightly higher than your head by this point. He's essentially blocking his own vision to the basket in both the first and second screenshots.

Image

In the third image, while his body is completely vertical now - which is good, look at his left and right hands, they're almost touching at the top. When I shoot my left hand naturally drops down off the ball and it's almost completely guided by my right hand after release. His right hand should be dropped down below the elevation of his left hand, but they're touching at the apex.

Image

This is pronounced in the last image where you can see his right hand is still completely up after release, and his left wrist is going completely west. His follow through should be toward the basket, and instead his wrist is pointing the complete opposite way to the left (again this isn't an image pixelation thing, I watched this shot at full speed several times and you see his wrist just jut out left).

Image

His shooting form definitely seems fixable as he's fine vertically and fairly square, but I hope they notice some of these problems in his release and tell him to change his starting point as I can see him shooting a lot of line drive shots all season long unless it's addressed.

I watched him shoot a few practice shots as well the other day and saw him miss a couple and saw the same mechanical issues in that video from different angles.

(sorry about image sizes as the sites I used are resizing them!)



Too many new rj Barrett hits on google. Can’t find the exact stat, but a couple days ago I read he shoots something like 49% of his open threes and only 19% of his defended threes.

Reason being the way he starts his shot with that low and slow load up at the start of his mechanics.

I have to assume, we have a plan for those mechanics you detailed. One can hope at least, given his connection to basketball Canada we have intimate knowledge from his trainers.

Anyways here’s a nice breakdown of his advanced stats.

https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/comments/18w6y3c/a_look_into_rj_barrets_advanced_stats_with/
YogurtProducer
RealGM
Posts: 29,824
And1: 32,637
Joined: Jul 22, 2013
Location: Saskatchewan
       

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#10 » by YogurtProducer » Tue Jan 2, 2024 2:29 pm

Someone mentioned the lefty effect in the game thread - anyone have a video with the image flipped to see if that partially is why it looks so weird?
What an absolute failure and disaster this franchise is, ran by one of the most incompetent front offices in the league.
- Raptors RealGM Forum re: Masai Ujiri - June 2023
aminiaturebuddha
Head Coach
Posts: 6,823
And1: 7,430
Joined: Aug 07, 2006

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#11 » by aminiaturebuddha » Tue Jan 2, 2024 2:37 pm

It would be great if they could tweak his shot and make him a better shooter, but I wouldn't expect much more than minor tweaks until the off-season. Trying to re-build someones shot in-season is just a recipe for disaster.

But yes, his form needs works and hopefully that is the cause of his shooting inconsistency and so it can be straightened out.

However, I will say that form on a shot is slightly less important than consistency of movement. To truly have a good shot you need to be doing the same motion every time. Take a look at Haliburton, for example, who has terrible looking form with a push shot from his chest, and a weird claw thing on his stead hand, but yet does the same thing every time and therefore has been money with his shot going back to college (even though the form is so unorthodox that it caused him to slip in the draft).

In the off-season they can do some more structural work (although hopefully not before the Olympics and risk messing him up before Team Canada needs him), but for now they'll probably just focus on tweaks and making sure that his mechanics are consistent every time.
User avatar
bluerap23
Head Coach
Posts: 7,113
And1: 7,265
Joined: Aug 15, 2012
   

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#12 » by bluerap23 » Tue Jan 2, 2024 2:46 pm

If RJ is your 4th best player, you are ok. He just needs to accept a reduced role with fewer shots.
Image
User avatar
Westside Gunn
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,727
And1: 6,655
Joined: Jul 03, 2016
       

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#13 » by Westside Gunn » Tue Jan 2, 2024 2:53 pm

Damn with that kind of money I would hire a shooting coach to live with me in the summer to fix that fugly form. Couldnt his dad fix it or he shot the same way?

His body control when attacking the hoop is impressive kind of looks like a slo mo Joe Johnson.
Google "Hind Rajab"
Total Killed by Israel = 50,000+
Israel kills a child every 45 minutes and ban aid workers from bringing in baby formula :crazy:
Total being starved by Israel = 500,000 -1,000,000

Speak up
User avatar
Anatomize
General Manager
Posts: 7,847
And1: 6,220
Joined: Jul 25, 2008

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#14 » by Anatomize » Tue Jan 2, 2024 2:56 pm

aminiaturebuddha wrote:It would be great if they could tweak his shot and make him a better shooter, but I wouldn't expect much more than minor tweaks until the off-season. Trying to re-build someones shot in-season is just a recipe for disaster.

But yes, his form needs works and hopefully that is the cause of his shooting inconsistency and so it can be straightened out.

However, I will say that form on a shot is slightly less important than consistency of movement. To truly have a good shot you need to be doing the same motion every time. Take a look at Haliburton, for example, who has terrible looking form with a push shot from his chest, and a weird claw thing on his stead hand, but yet does the same thing every time and therefore has been money with his shot going back to college (even though the form is so unorthodox that it caused him to slip in the draft).

In the off-season they can do some more structural work (although hopefully not before the Olympics and risk messing him up before Team Canada needs him), but for now they'll probably just focus on tweaks and making sure that his mechanics are consistent every time.


I used to have the same misconception about Haliburton, then I watched his shot mechanics over and over again in highlights and they're a lot better than people think.



The reason why people think it's weird is because his right hand is quite far out from his body on the release and he has a slight lean on some of the shots, but if you look at where he cocks it its at a good angle.

The mechanics are sound, there is a reason he's swishing almost every shot (and he consistently swishes it multiple times a game). He has a good follow through, a good release point/high arc, he's completely square to the basket with his entire body, and he's vertical/aligned the entire way. It's why he can shoot off the dribble as well (you'll see him in all of his highlights take nice off balance mid range jumpers). Someone with poor mechanics wouldn't be able to take the types of shots he does off multiple dribble moves (eg. Marion can catch and shoot corner 3's, but he looks a lot worst trying to take a fade away moving right off a dribble as the shot is coming out of his chest area).

Someone mentioned it in the comments there, it looks strange because the way he brings it up is slightly slow but then he goes into a very fast far out release, so the two things are at odds.

Just keep moving your scroller back and forth and/or pausing in that video and you'll see what I mean, his shot is much better than people give it credit for, it just looks slightly odd.
djsunyc
RealGM
Posts: 99,599
And1: 73,395
Joined: Dec 28, 2003

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#15 » by djsunyc » Tue Jan 2, 2024 2:59 pm

let's give jama some time with him and see what happens.
DelAbbot
RealGM
Posts: 15,017
And1: 21,531
Joined: May 22, 2019
   

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#16 » by DelAbbot » Tue Jan 2, 2024 2:59 pm

doesn't the Knicks have a shooting coach? how has this not been fixed for so long?
aminiaturebuddha
Head Coach
Posts: 6,823
And1: 7,430
Joined: Aug 07, 2006

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#17 » by aminiaturebuddha » Tue Jan 2, 2024 3:02 pm

Anatomize wrote:
aminiaturebuddha wrote:It would be great if they could tweak his shot and make him a better shooter, but I wouldn't expect much more than minor tweaks until the off-season. Trying to re-build someones shot in-season is just a recipe for disaster.

But yes, his form needs works and hopefully that is the cause of his shooting inconsistency and so it can be straightened out.

However, I will say that form on a shot is slightly less important than consistency of movement. To truly have a good shot you need to be doing the same motion every time. Take a look at Haliburton, for example, who has terrible looking form with a push shot from his chest, and a weird claw thing on his stead hand, but yet does the same thing every time and therefore has been money with his shot going back to college (even though the form is so unorthodox that it caused him to slip in the draft).

In the off-season they can do some more structural work (although hopefully not before the Olympics and risk messing him up before Team Canada needs him), but for now they'll probably just focus on tweaks and making sure that his mechanics are consistent every time.


I used to have the same misconception about Haliburton, then I watched his shot mechanics over and over again in highlights and they're a lot better than people think.

https://youtu.be/8VJUomgzTdA?si=1WuSf7xO12GFb6mR

The reason why people think is weird is because his right hand is quite far out from his body on the release, but if you look at where he cocks it its at a good angle next to his head.

If you look at the actual mechanics of the shot though they're very sound, there is a reason he's swishing almost every shot (and he consistently swishes it multiple times a game).. He has a good follow through, a good release point/high arc, he's completely square to the basket with his entire body, and he's vertical/aligned the entire way. It's why he can shoot off the dribble as well (you'll see him in all of his highlights take nice off balance mid range jumpers). Someone with poor mechanics wouldn't be able to take the types of shots he does off multiple dribble moves (eg. Marion can catch and shoot corner 3's, but he looks a lot worst trying to take a fade away moving right off a dribble as the shot is coming out of his chest area).

Just keep moving your scroller back and forth in that video and you'll see what I mean, his shot is much better than people give it credit for, it just looks slightly odd.


You're definitely right that Haliburton's body control on his shot is excellent, and that's a big part of why he's consistent. His legs are usually into the shot and make the same motion almost every time, even off the dribble, and he does a great job of squaring up to the basket.

His form involving everything with his arms is definitely funky though. Thanks for that video. It's definitely a good perspective. It's interesting that people can look at the same thing and have different interpretations. For example, here's another video where he details some of the weird things that I was talking about, which often includes a sideways spin on the ball, something that no one would ever teach.



However, he also goes through some of the reason why despite the weirdness his shot still works, including the body stuff you point out and the consistency of his movement as I mentioned.
User avatar
Anatomize
General Manager
Posts: 7,847
And1: 6,220
Joined: Jul 25, 2008

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#18 » by Anatomize » Tue Jan 2, 2024 3:10 pm

aminiaturebuddha wrote:
Anatomize wrote:
aminiaturebuddha wrote:It would be great if they could tweak his shot and make him a better shooter, but I wouldn't expect much more than minor tweaks until the off-season. Trying to re-build someones shot in-season is just a recipe for disaster.

But yes, his form needs works and hopefully that is the cause of his shooting inconsistency and so it can be straightened out.

However, I will say that form on a shot is slightly less important than consistency of movement. To truly have a good shot you need to be doing the same motion every time. Take a look at Haliburton, for example, who has terrible looking form with a push shot from his chest, and a weird claw thing on his stead hand, but yet does the same thing every time and therefore has been money with his shot going back to college (even though the form is so unorthodox that it caused him to slip in the draft).

In the off-season they can do some more structural work (although hopefully not before the Olympics and risk messing him up before Team Canada needs him), but for now they'll probably just focus on tweaks and making sure that his mechanics are consistent every time.


I used to have the same misconception about Haliburton, then I watched his shot mechanics over and over again in highlights and they're a lot better than people think.

https://youtu.be/8VJUomgzTdA?si=1WuSf7xO12GFb6mR

The reason why people think is weird is because his right hand is quite far out from his body on the release, but if you look at where he cocks it its at a good angle next to his head.

If you look at the actual mechanics of the shot though they're very sound, there is a reason he's swishing almost every shot (and he consistently swishes it multiple times a game).. He has a good follow through, a good release point/high arc, he's completely square to the basket with his entire body, and he's vertical/aligned the entire way. It's why he can shoot off the dribble as well (you'll see him in all of his highlights take nice off balance mid range jumpers). Someone with poor mechanics wouldn't be able to take the types of shots he does off multiple dribble moves (eg. Marion can catch and shoot corner 3's, but he looks a lot worst trying to take a fade away moving right off a dribble as the shot is coming out of his chest area).

Just keep moving your scroller back and forth in that video and you'll see what I mean, his shot is much better than people give it credit for, it just looks slightly odd.


You're definitely right that Haliburton's body control on his shot is excellent, and that's a big part of why he's consistent. His legs are usually into the shot and make the same motion almost every time, even off the dribble, and he does a great job of squaring up to the basket.

His form involving everything with his arms is definitely funky though. Thanks for that video. It's definitely a good perspective. It's interesting that people can look at the same thing and have different interpretations. For example, here's another video where he details some of the weird things that I was talking about, which often includes a sideways spin on the ball, something that no one would ever teach.



However, he also goes through some of the reason why despite the weirdness his shot still works, including the body stuff you point out and the consistency of his movement as I mentioned.


It's because he palms the ball on the lower right side of the ball rather than behind the ball at the center. However look at once he actually releases it, it's back onto the center point and he's following through as if he was palming from the center. You can't make the types of swishes he does if all your shots had side spin, he'd be missing a lot more. Also, even with him palming it at a strange angle, his elbow is still 90 degrees.

It's almost akin to someone scooping up a ball with one hand at the arcade and then shooting it in that way.
User avatar
jrask
Pro Prospect
Posts: 997
And1: 1,211
Joined: May 04, 2007
     

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#19 » by jrask » Tue Jan 2, 2024 3:20 pm

Lefties usually look like they have bad shot mechanics. Michael Redd's shot (for example) always looked off to me, but he was a good shooter.

I think its partially just an optical illusion.
No rebounds No rings
User avatar
Anatomize
General Manager
Posts: 7,847
And1: 6,220
Joined: Jul 25, 2008

Re: RJ Barrett Shot Mechanics 

Post#20 » by Anatomize » Tue Jan 2, 2024 3:29 pm

jrask wrote:Lefties usually look like they have bad shot mechanics. Michael Redd's shot (for example) always looked off to me, but he was a good shooter.

I think its partially just an optical illusion.


Mo Pete’s shot always looked clean. The only reason Redd’s looked slightly weird is because he would sling shot/catapult his cocking motion, but his release point, elbow, follow through were all on point. It’s incomparable to Barrett otherwise Barrett would be a way better shooter. He’s nearly touching the ball with his head and has a slow and low release into a nearly two handed release up top with a flared out side wrist, there are just too many no-no’s in one shot, and it’s why his percentages have always been fairly poor outside of one outlier year. It’s fine to point it out, so maybe someone notices and helps him improve it.

Return to Toronto Raptors