Who would win a best of 7 series? 17 Cavs or 18 Rockets

[rk2023]

Two similar era teams, both couldn’t beat the gauntlet Warriors - but who prevails, how many games needed, and why?

[scrabbarista]

2018 Rockets might be the most underrated team of all time.

They were #1 in offense and #6 in defense. Better than Cleveland on both ends - massively better on defense.

They were 42-3 (77 win pace) when Harden, Paul, and Capela played.

They would've beaten the Durant Warriors, even with Paul's Game 5 injury, if not for outright criminal officiating in the last two games of the WCF.

They went up 3-2 on basically the same team that the Cavs were down 1-4 against.

Pretty easy pick.

[parsnips33]

Lol 2018 Rockets are a lot of thing but underrated is not one of them, at least not on this forum

You'd think they 5peated just by the amount of conversation around them here

With that being said, I think they'd beat the Cavs

[Colbinii]

I think the Rockets beat just about every champion that isn't the 2017 or 2018 Warriors.

[scrabbarista]

I think the Rockets beat just about every champion that isn't the 2017 or 2018 Warriors.

I think they did beat the 2018 Warriors.

[scrabbarista]

I know 99% of you already know all about it, but if there's anyone who doesn't and is curious, here's a vid of the atrocity exhibition that was Game 6's officiating. It moves fast, so you'll need to do a lot of rewinding. The Rockets took control in the first, the refs took control in the second and third, and by the fourth Houston understood they were facing an impossible task that was not, in its essence, a basketball game.

Watch on YouTube

[uberhikari]

I'm not trusting any team that has James Harden as the best player.

[The Master]

I'm not trusting any team that has James Harden as the best player.

... and Chris Paul not getting injured till the NBA finals.

Cavaliers would match-up better with Rockets '18 than they did against Warriors '17-18: Kevin Love was unplayable against Warriors' death lineup, he would've been defensively against Tucker or Ariza standing in the corner. On the other hand, Rockets were perfectly built to compete with the Warriors, they weren't such to exploit weaknesses of Cavs' 17.

In a vacuum, Rockets may have an edge - in reality, Harden delivering in the elimination games/CP3 being healthy throughout the whole playoff series/run, is make-a-wish type of speculation. Cavaliers had peak LeBron James after all generating all-time great NBA offense, so I'd go Cavs in 6.

[Cavsfansince84]

I know 99% of you already know all about it, but if there's anyone who doesn't and is curious, here's a vid of the atrocity exhibition that was Game 6's officiating. It moves fast, so you'll need to do a lot of rewinding. The Rockets took control in the first, the refs took control in the second and third, and by the fourth Houston understood they were facing an impossible task that was not, in its essence, a basketball game.

Watch on YouTube

I would agree that sometimes refs absolutely do get it in their heads that team a is supposed to win a game/series. Not just one ref but entire crews and I think most fans are a bit naive about how this works in many corporations where just doing as your told is very easy to go along with. More so in something where no one is actually harmed. We see it as something very serious but to them its just calling things tight and giving the league what it wants from them.

[f4p]

I'm not trusting any team that has James Harden as the best player.

... and Chris Paul not getting injured till the NBA finals.

i'm pretty sure the question isn't who would win, the 17 Cavs or the 18 Rockets with Chris Paul injured because that would be a pointless question.

Cavaliers would match-up better with Rockets '18 than they did against Warriors '17-18: Kevin Love was unplayable against Warriors' death lineup, he would've been defensively against Tucker or Ariza standing in the corner.

the rockets relentlessly hunted switches with people like kevin love. possibly more than any offense ever. it would be extremely difficult for him to stay on the court against harden and paul. and then there would always be kyrie to go at as well.

[quote]On the other hand, Rockets were perfectly built to compete with the Warriors, they weren't such to exploit weaknesses of Cavs' 17. [quote]

the cavs with peak lebron may very well be able to beat the rockets in a series, but i don't know why people think we were some roster that was only built to beat the warriors. as pointed out above, we were 42-3 when harden/cp3/capela played in the regular season. we appear to have been built to beat everybody. ultimately, the cavs stood no chance against the same warriors we very well may have beat if healthy. that seems enough to pick the rockets.

[The Master]

i'm pretty sure the question isn't who would win, the 17 Cavs or the 18 Rockets with Chris Paul injured because that would be a pointless question.

Yeah, that's why this is even more hypothetical question than typical 'team A from season X vs team B from season Y' considering CP3 was injured in 2018, 2016, 2012, 2009, missed couple of games in 2015 in the playoffs as well. It's another discussion-worthy issue, but people give way too much benefit of a doubt for those players with durability issues (because we feel sorry for them and their team) - 'availability' is a skill as well.

We can assume that regardless of the CP3s injury, Rockets could've defeated Warriors '18 if not the referees (I don't think it's as obvious as it was suggested in this thread, but I'm not going to discuss it here), and could've won a title against the weak Eastern Conference representative - but getting your 2nd best superstar injured in the middle of the crucial series is a huge blow to 'overall value' of Rockets 2018 as a team, sorry not sorry, in more abstract discussions (like this one).

i don't know why people think we were some roster that was only built to beat the warriors.

I was referring to 'Rockets nearly defeated Warriors '18 while Cavaliers lost to Warriors '17'' - first, Warriors '17 could have been a better team (b2b run, Curry returning from an injury in the middle of the playoffs, chemistry issues) a year earlier, second, Rockets were perfectly built to defeat Warriors (in contrary to Cavaliers), so it's not a straight-forward comparison (team X was better against team Y than team Z a year earlier, so they're better).

That's why I said that Rockets probably were a better team in a vacuum or best-case scenario, but there are several question marks (CP3 and his health, Harden when the stake is the highest) that make this comp more a matter of preference, really, if the question is which team would've won a playoff series. If we assume healthy CP3, for instance, then we investigate a team being actually better than Rockets '18, and we assume CP3 being a better player than he was in 2018. If someone has Rockets defeating Cavaliers in a series, it doesn't bother me, really, as I find it even more hypothetical than such typical discussions, so not necessarily I'm expressing fully contrary opinion (to those giving Rockets an upper hand).

[GSP]

2018 Rockets might be the most underrated team of all time.

They were #1 in offense and #6 in defense. Better than Cleveland on both ends - massively better on defense.

They were 42-3 (77 win pace) when Harden, Paul, and Capela played.

They would've beaten the Durant Warriors, even with Paul's Game 5 injury, if not for outright criminal officiating in the last two games of the WCF.

They went up 3-2 on basically the same team that the Cavs were down 1-4 against.

Pretty easy pick.

17 Warriors arent the 18 Warriors.....I dont know why ppl lump them together. They were still all time dominant but not the same behemoth from 17

Everyone remembers Cp3s injury but feels like theres been memory loss for Iggys injury..........was a massive loss for Warriors. They were up 2-1 and just won by 41pts then Iggy missed rest of series and start of Cavs series.........



He was their 5th best player and they were a shallow team that had to play likes of Nick Young, Quin Cook and Jordan Bell more minutes with Iggys loss..............Warriors basically played w/o their death lineup and best perimeter defender for most Rockets series a perimeter oriented team and even then Houston won games 4 and 5 by 3 and 4pts........w/ Cp3 and w/o Iggy

Warriors wouldve won in 6 if Iggy and Cp3 were both healthy

[scrabbarista]

2018 Rockets might be the most underrated team of all time.

They were #1 in offense and #6 in defense. Better than Cleveland on both ends - massively better on defense.

They were 42-3 (77 win pace) when Harden, Paul, and Capela played.

They would've beaten the Durant Warriors, even with Paul's Game 5 injury, if not for outright criminal officiating in the last two games of the WCF.

They went up 3-2 on basically the same team that the Cavs were down 1-4 against.

Pretty easy pick.

17 Warriors arent the 18 Warriors.....I dont know why ppl lump them together. They were still all time dominant but not the same behemoth from 17

Everyone remembers Cp3s injury but feels like theres been memory loss for Iggys injury..........was a massive loss for Warriors. They were up 2-1 and just won by 41pts then Iggy missed rest of series and start of Cavs series.........



He was their 5th best player and they were a shallow team that had to play likes of Nick Young, Quin Cook and Jordan Bell more minutes with Iggys loss..............Warriors basically played w/o their Death Lineup for most Rockets series and even then Houston won games 4 and 5 by 3 and 4pts........w/ Cp3 and w/o Iggy

Warriors wouldve won in 6 if Iggy and Cp3 were both healthy

Good points. I would agree that GSW probably wins if both squads were fully healthy; although, with that 42-3 mark for the healthy Rockets, and the #1 offense and #6 defense that were specifically designed with one team (GSW) in mind, I think it would've been more than a formality.

However, as things happened, without Iggy (or Paul), the league gifted games 6 and 7 to the Warriors.

[AdagioPace]

I think the Rockets beat just about every champion that isn't the 2017 or 2018 Warriors.

Honestly I find Sansterre's placement of the 2018 Rockets quite accurate given what they have achieved, maybe a bit too low (94°) but not some inexplicably misunderstood all-time great team. You cannot trust 32 y.o. CP3 for a single post season, let alone multiple. Sustainability and replicability are major worries. I think Rockets were a nice experiment rooted in the moment.

[OhayoKD]

I think the Rockets beat just about every champion that isn't the 2017 or 2018 Warriors.

Honestly I find Sansterre's placement of the 2018 Rockets quite accurate given what they have achieved, maybe a bit too low (94°) but not some inexplicably misunderstood all-time great team. You cannot trust 32 y.o. CP3 for a single post season, let alone multiple. Sustainability and replicability are major worries. I think Rockets were a nice experiment rooted in the moment.

Sansterre's ranking is largely affected by the warriors blowing out the rockets more than vice versa in garbage time. It was a dead-heat otherwise in point-differential prior to CP3's injury which byitself(and no health adjustments) would see the Rockets skyrocket.

[OhayoKD]

Rockets are certainly the team cold data would favor. Legitimate arguments can be made regarding matchups and the 2017 warriors being healthier, so I don't think the comparison is ridiculous. Nonetheless, it feels disrespectful to favor a non-champion against a team that was a near dead-match(with chris paul) against the most talented team in history across two series and was outright beating the most talented team in history in the real nba finals of 2018.

[Dr Positivity]

I'd take the team with Lebron over Harden. Warriors underperformed against bad matchup for them to need 7 games against Rockets who's talent outside of Paul and Harden is not that exciting, and Paul/Harden synergy both on and off the court is not perfect. The Warriors were no longer a GOAT team by 2018 as Durant had started to stop the ball and their depth is mediocre combined with Iguodala injury. I also think 2017 Cavs are one of the best non champions and just got unlucky with unbeatable competition in 2017. As for the regular season Rockets there's always a difference between that and the playoffs, the Spurs in 2016 were amazing in regular season for example and then couldn't figure out how to beat Kanter and Adams frontcourt, and ultimately, the playoffs are a better reflection than 2016 and 2017 regular season results that Kawhi, LMA, aging Parker, Manu and Duncan (16)/Pau (17) and good depth is not really that mindblowing a team.

[NBA4Lyfe]

I know 99% of you already know all about it, but if there's anyone who doesn't and is curious, here's a vid of the atrocity exhibition that was Game 6's officiating. It moves fast, so you'll need to do a lot of rewinding. The Rockets took control in the first, the refs took control in the second and third, and by the fourth Houston understood they were facing an impossible task that was not, in its essence, a basketball game.

Watch on YouTube

wow.. and i thought it was just game 7 that was in question

crazy when i watching this game at the time, it was moving so fast, and tnt rarely showed the replays of the questionable stuff so i just assumed the refs made the right call and yes that harden foul on durant in the corner.. no way in heck is that a 3-shot foul.. thats a "foul on the floor" all day long

[HeartBreakKid]

Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love are not any more trustworthy than James Harden

[scrabbarista]

I know 99% of you already know all about it, but if there's anyone who doesn't and is curious, here's a vid of the atrocity exhibition that was Game 6's officiating. It moves fast, so you'll need to do a lot of rewinding. The Rockets took control in the first, the refs took control in the second and third, and by the fourth Houston understood they were facing an impossible task that was not, in its essence, a basketball game.

Watch on YouTube

wow.. and i thought it was just game 7 that was in question

crazy when i watching this game at the time, it was moving so fast, and tnt rarely showed the replays of the questionable stuff so i just assumed the refs made the right call and yes that harden foul on durant in the corner.. no way in heck is that a 3-shot foul.. thats a "foul on the floor" all day long

Why would it only be Game 7 when the point was to get the Warriors in the Finals? Think, my friend!

EDIT: I'm not double-checking the foul you're referring to, so I don't know if this is relevant, but it's important to know there was a MAJOR difference between what was a shooting foul and what was on the floor compared to now. This was particularly relevant in Game 7. In 2018, rip-throughs were still shooting fouls (if the offensive player continued into a shooting motion). That was the last season that this was true.