NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (continued)

[eyeatoma]

I am all for Luka but this is different from Westbrook year. That year Westbrook was #1 in scoring, 31.6ppg vs. 2nd place Harden @29.1, together with triple double season. #1 in BPM 30.6 (2nd Kawhi 27.6), PER, and VORP. Played in 81 games and even peaked his 3pt shooting @.343%. Him playing like that this year would not be enough. The top talents this year are performing too much better than 2017 on great teams.

Everyone loves Luka - he may get an MVP soon. But this year isn’t that year -

jokic and Embiid are clearly playing better on better teams.

Giannis has had a better big historic game- and is playing at least as well.

SGA and Luka fighting for 4th right now with both of them having a strong case for an MVP any year but this damn year.


Jokic just played the role of a guard and took the ball from 50’ on the inbounds and drove to 30 and buried a 3 to win a game on the road against the GSW to complete a double digit comeback. And that was the play they drew up ?! The center to play guard at 50 feet out with 3 seconds to go.

That’s F***king insane-

I can’t think of another center in the history of earth that could or even would be asked to do that -

Not one…

That’s the shot dame, Curry, MJ, Kobe takes -

While Lebron looks for the right play/pass or shot -

And any other big man isn’t even in the action -

Nah, I don't see how SGA is not top 2 if you are not biased on previous seasons or history. He is having the same efficiency .643TS% with Embiid .650TS% and Giannis .650 as a guard, played in all their 23 wins, top 3 in all PER/WS/48/BPM/VORP.
If you are claiming Jokic and Embiid are playing better on better teams, they should have better record, but they don't. That tells you at least one "better" does not stand.

You keep bring thing up. He has been incredible, but the stats aren't very close to Embiid's at all. The only think he's got on him is wins.

[Baz]

"His team is much worse than all of theirs"
Yeah, exactly. That's the case. They can't win without him.

And still, they're 20-12 with him. 0-3 without. In a tough Western Conference. He has to play 40 minutes a night.

"He isn't really outplaying them on an individual level" Only Luka and one other player in NBA history have scored 50 points and 15 assists in a game. Which he did the other night. Luka Doncic averaged 37.5 points, 11.1 assists and 8.9 rebounds in 13 games last month. 8 wins and 5 losses. Other than Embiid, nobody was putting up crazy numbers close to that last month. While constantly being doubled and hit, and barely getting to the line. And yet, he's falling in the ladder. Being 5th in the race and out of the conversation is telling. The league doesn't want him to be on the Mavs. The writing is on the wall. He has to go somewhere else if he wants to win anything, even at an individual level. They don't even put him on national TV much anymore. If the Most Valuable Player award was true to his name, he'd be it. The Mavs are 7th in the West. OKC were 6th in the West when Westbrook won the MVP. But because he's 7th, he's out of the conversation. That's a violation, I guess.

For the record, I got Luka moving between 2 and 3 with Jokic behind Embiid, although the Sixers don't look too uncomfortable without him which could hurt his case, & the Nuggets won their only game without Jokic so far this season. Clearly none of these teams win a championship without their MVP level guys, but I do think Luka has the biggest impact and is the biggest loss for his team when he's out.

I am all for Luka but this is different from Westbrook year. That year Westbrook was #1 in scoring, 31.6ppg vs. 2nd place Harden @29.1, together with triple double season. #1 in BPM 30.6 (2nd Kawhi 27.6), PER, and VORP. Played in 81 games and even peaked his 3pt shooting @.343%. Him playing like that this year would not be enough. The top talents this year are performing too much better than 2017 on great teams.

Everyone loves Luka - he may get an MVP soon. But this year isn’t that year -

jokic and Embiid are clearly playing better on better teams.

Giannis has had a better big historic game- and is playing at least as well.

SGA and Luka fighting for 4th right now with both of them having a strong case for an MVP any year but this damn year.


Jokic just played the role of a guard and took the ball from 50’ on the inbounds and drove to 30 and buried a 3 to win a game on the road against the GSW to complete a double digit comeback. And that was the play they drew up ?! The center to play guard at 50 feet out with 3 seconds to go.

That’s F***king insane-

I can’t think of another center in the history of earth that could or even would be asked to do that -

Not one…

That’s the shot dame, Curry, MJ, Kobe takes -

While Lebron looks for the right play/pass or shot -

And any other big man isn’t even in the action -

Luka might become the best player to never get his hands on an MVP with the way it's designed to be won and the NBA and media's clear indifference in the Mavericks, & yes, the Mavericks constant inability to surround him with a decent supporting cast. But even still, how he's not fighting for #2 or at least #3 this season is crazy with the consistent excellent play he is putting forward right now, & the clear and crucial reliance on him alone to win games... that they are winning. That reliance for me is enough to put him ahead of Giannis & SGA, who have supporting casts that can carry them through off nights and don't entirely depend on them, and sometimes don't even have the ball in their hands in big time moments, because they got Dame, or Chet. If Luka has an off-night, which he's prone to (as all these guys are), it's already game over.

[Cubbies2120]

Read on Twitter

Modern day Wilt who can do whatever he wants on the court. Only difference is he steps up even more in the playoffs!

[Cubbies2120]

If Luka has an off-night, which he's prone to (as all these guys are), it's already game over.

Compare what an off night for Luka looks like, and what an off night for Jokic looks like.

I'd wager they're significantly different. Jokic had three absolutely AWFUL, HIGH VOLUME shooting games (that I'm not sure even Luka has had as bad of shooting games in his career - idk)...and he still provided:

22/15/10 (28% shooting, 4 turnovers)
23/16/5 (33%, 3 turnovers)
32/16/9 (35%, 4 turnovers)

When you consider the # of shots he took in each of these games, it's horrific to shoot that much and shoot so poorly. Yet he still averaged 15 rebounds in these games, and 8 assists...so he found ways to contribute when he was shooting them in the foot shooting from the floor.

High volume is relative. For a guy shooting 17 shots a game, 23 shots is a high volume game, while for the other guy he averages that...

[Cubbies2120]

He wins at an unprecedented rate because he sits out games against top teams. There’s certainly a couple losses sprinkled in there especially against a team like Boston which has his number year in, year out.

He has beaten the Celtics, the Wolves and the Thunder this year.

The top teams...

Also you can only beat the teams that are on your schedule, time will tell if he can continue on this run. He has also missed 7 games, so unless he is actually hurt, he won't miss many more games.

The Sixers have a tough rest schedule coming up
8 B2B's left (only played in 5 so far, and Embiid played in 3 of them - 2 vs. TRASH teams, 1 vs. Boston (which he played poorly in))

Denver has played 8 B2B's already (Jokic played in 7)

I *ASSUME* that Embiid is gonna be resting some B2B's as he's always done - what would you estimate, 50% of them? That means at least 4 rest games...and if they secure their seed by end of year, I assume he'd sit the final game of the regular season too? So that would mean 5 missed games.

One minor injury would mean no MVP OR he'd need to skip rest games...which doesn't bode well for playoff Embiid.

[CobraCommander]

I am all for Luka but this is different from Westbrook year. That year Westbrook was #1 in scoring, 31.6ppg vs. 2nd place Harden @29.1, together with triple double season. #1 in BPM 30.6 (2nd Kawhi 27.6), PER, and VORP. Played in 81 games and even peaked his 3pt shooting @.343%. Him playing like that this year would not be enough. The top talents this year are performing too much better than 2017 on great teams.

Everyone loves Luka - he may get an MVP soon. But this year isn’t that year -

jokic and Embiid are clearly playing better on better teams.

Giannis has had a better big historic game- and is playing at least as well.

SGA and Luka fighting for 4th right now with both of them having a strong case for an MVP any year but this damn year.


Jokic just played the role of a guard and took the ball from 50’ on the inbounds and drove to 30 and buried a 3 to win a game on the road against the GSW to complete a double digit comeback. And that was the play they drew up ?! The center to play guard at 50 feet out with 3 seconds to go.

That’s F***king insane-

I can’t think of another center in the history of earth that could or even would be asked to do that -

Not one…

That’s the shot dame, Curry, MJ, Kobe takes -

While Lebron looks for the right play/pass or shot -

And any other big man isn’t even in the action -

Luka might become the best player to never get his hands on an MVP with the way it's designed to be won and the NBA and media's clear indifference in the Mavericks, & yes, the Mavericks constant inability to surround him with a decent supporting cast. But even still, how he's not fighting for #2 or at least #3 this season is crazy with the consistent excellent play he is putting forward right now, & the clear and crucial reliance on him alone to win games... that they are winning. That reliance for me is enough to put him ahead of Giannis & SGA, who have supporting casts that can carry them through off nights and don't entirely depend on them, and sometimes don't even have the ball in their hands in big time moments, because they got Dame, or Chet. If Luka has an off-night, which he's prone to (as all these guys are), it's already game over.

I disagree with you-

Luka has always had a cast (not a great cast) since he came in the league and since he is so ball dominant and with a horrible coach - they don’t get the most out of the talent around him. We cant pretend that Brunson is a scrub anymore…. And Lively and Kyrie are not garbage lol…. But either way - Luka isn’t ahead of those guys to me - he is on par with SGA but not Giannis- and definitely not playing as well and Embiid or Jokic.

I’m pretty sure everyone knows Jokic is the best player on earth- including Luka and Giannis and Embiid lol

[RB34]

The race is definitely heating up!

[Baz]

If Luka has an off-night, which he's prone to (as all these guys are), it's already game over.

Compare what an off night for Luka looks like, and what an off night for Jokic looks like.

I'd wager they're significantly different. Jokic had three absolutely AWFUL, HIGH VOLUME shooting games (that I'm not sure even Luka has had as bad of shooting games in his career - idk)...and he still provided:

22/15/10 (28% shooting, 4 turnovers)
23/16/5 (33%, 3 turnovers)
32/16/9 (35%, 4 turnovers)

When you consider the # of shots he took in each of these games, it's horrific to shoot that much and shoot so poorly. Yet he still averaged 15 rebounds in these games, and 8 assists...so he found ways to contribute when he was shooting them in the foot shooting from the floor.

High volume is relative. For a guy shooting 17 shots a game, 23 shots is a high volume game, while for the other guy he averages that...

I could be wrong but I can't think of a Luka high volume shooting night that was as rough as the 9-32. Sometimes Jokic barely even shoots. This current 4-game stretch he is on is ridiculous. Missed what, 5 shots? I would say, shoot more. But the Nuggets don't really need him to sometimes. He provides in other areas and the team around him is productive with a strong system in place. He's the biggest piece of that of course, but that's something Luka doesn't have the luxury of having right now.

A problem for Luka is his clear frustration on those nights can make things worse for his team in big stretches. Thinking back to his first meeting with Jokic this season, he turned the ball over a lot and I thought to myself it was the worst I've seen him play in a while. But if you look at his stat line and ignore the TOs, you'd think it was a great night for him. He came up big in the 4th from memory, as he often does, comes back alive when the Mavericks need a bucket. But before he can revive himself, it's sometimes already too late. He jacked up like 4 missed step backs in a row against the Jazz the other night, Kessler straight up blocking one of them, turned the ball over a couple of times, and they pulled way ahead and that was ballgame. His effort drops in other places when this happens and it's pretty clear. This is why I got him at #3 right now, particularly after that performance against the Jazz, and Jokic's performance at Golden State. But Luka is in the conversation, and if he was a more poised player with the right pieces around him, in my mind it's hard to think he wouldn't be #1.

[Baz]

Everyone loves Luka - he may get an MVP soon. But this year isn’t that year -

jokic and Embiid are clearly playing better on better teams.

Giannis has had a better big historic game- and is playing at least as well.

SGA and Luka fighting for 4th right now with both of them having a strong case for an MVP any year but this damn year.


Jokic just played the role of a guard and took the ball from 50’ on the inbounds and drove to 30 and buried a 3 to win a game on the road against the GSW to complete a double digit comeback. And that was the play they drew up ?! The center to play guard at 50 feet out with 3 seconds to go.

That’s F***king insane-

I can’t think of another center in the history of earth that could or even would be asked to do that -

Not one…

That’s the shot dame, Curry, MJ, Kobe takes -

While Lebron looks for the right play/pass or shot -

And any other big man isn’t even in the action -

Luka might become the best player to never get his hands on an MVP with the way it's designed to be won and the NBA and media's clear indifference in the Mavericks, & yes, the Mavericks constant inability to surround him with a decent supporting cast. But even still, how he's not fighting for #2 or at least #3 this season is crazy with the consistent excellent play he is putting forward right now, & the clear and crucial reliance on him alone to win games... that they are winning. That reliance for me is enough to put him ahead of Giannis & SGA, who have supporting casts that can carry them through off nights and don't entirely depend on them, and sometimes don't even have the ball in their hands in big time moments, because they got Dame, or Chet. If Luka has an off-night, which he's prone to (as all these guys are), it's already game over.

I disagree with you-

Luka has always had a cast (not a great cast) since he came in the league and since he is so ball dominant and with a horrible coach - they don’t get the most out of the talent around him. We cant pretend that Brunson is a scrub anymore…. And Lively and Kyrie are not garbage lol…. But either way - Luka isn’t ahead of those guys to me - he is on par with SGA but not Giannis- and definitely not playing as well and Embiid or Jokic.

I’m pretty sure everyone knows Jokic is the best player on earth- including Luka and Giannis and Embiid lol

Yes, I too think Jokic is the best basketball player on earth. That doesn't change what I'm saying.

With Brunson he made a conference finals so that's kinda a moot point. And Kyrie has been injured half the season. Lively is missing a bunch of games too. And Lively's a rookie. Dante Exum has been the next best player. Guess what, he's injured too! The supporting cast is pretty much non-existent beyond those players. Luka does not have an acceptable supporting cast for him to be contending.

[JonHeist]

He wins at an unprecedented rate because he sits out games against top teams. There’s certainly a couple losses sprinkled in there especially against a team like Boston which has his number year in, year out.

He has beaten the Celtics, the Wolves and the Thunder this year.

The top teams...

Also you can only beat the teams that are on your schedule, time will tell if he can continue on this run. He has also missed 7 games, so unless he is actually hurt, he won't miss many more games.

The Sixers have a tough rest schedule coming up
8 B2B's left (only played in 5 so far, and Embiid played in 3 of them - 2 vs. TRASH teams, 1 vs. Boston (which he played poorly in))

Denver has played 8 B2B's already (Jokic played in 7)

I *ASSUME* that Embiid is gonna be resting some B2B's as he's always done - what would you estimate, 50% of them? That means at least 4 rest games...and if they secure their seed by end of year, I assume he'd sit the final game of the regular season too? So that would mean 5 missed games.

One minor injury would mean no MVP OR he'd need to skip rest games...which doesn't bode well for playoff Embiid.

bro you need to just change ur flair from the spurs to the nuggets at this point

[CobraCommander]

Luka might become the best player to never get his hands on an MVP with the way it's designed to be won and the NBA and media's clear indifference in the Mavericks, & yes, the Mavericks constant inability to surround him with a decent supporting cast. But even still, how he's not fighting for #2 or at least #3 this season is crazy with the consistent excellent play he is putting forward right now, & the clear and crucial reliance on him alone to win games... that they are winning. That reliance for me is enough to put him ahead of Giannis & SGA, who have supporting casts that can carry them through off nights and don't entirely depend on them, and sometimes don't even have the ball in their hands in big time moments, because they got Dame, or Chet. If Luka has an off-night, which he's prone to (as all these guys are), it's already game over.

I disagree with you-

Luka has always had a cast (not a great cast) since he came in the league and since he is so ball dominant and with a horrible coach - they don’t get the most out of the talent around him. We cant pretend that Brunson is a scrub anymore…. And Lively and Kyrie are not garbage lol…. But either way - Luka isn’t ahead of those guys to me - he is on par with SGA but not Giannis- and definitely not playing as well and Embiid or Jokic.

I’m pretty sure everyone knows Jokic is the best player on earth- including Luka and Giannis and Embiid lol

Yes, I too think Jokic is the best basketball player on earth. That doesn't change what I'm saying.

With Brunson he made a conference finals so that's kinda a moot point. And Kyrie has been injured half the season. Lively is missing a bunch of games too. And Lively's a rookie. Dante Exum has been the next best player. Guess what, he's injured too! The supporting cast is pretty much non-existent beyond those players. Luka does not have an acceptable supporting cast for him to be contending.

All Of that is true- but you can’t give Luka all the credit and none of the blame for being in 7th. At some point - the guys at the tip top are the reason why you win or lose in the minds of the MVP voters.

Luka one of the 5-10 best players on earth - and if all things equal- the 3 better players than Luka with better records than Luka - Giannis, jokic and Embiid - will always beat him in mvp IF stats are close.

It also hurts Luka’s chances when SGA is playing as well or better on some nights and they are both young guns -

[dygaction]

He wins at an unprecedented rate because he sits out games against top teams. There’s certainly a couple losses sprinkled in there especially against a team like Boston which has his number year in, year out.

He has beaten the Celtics, the Wolves and the Thunder this year.

The top teams...

Also you can only beat the teams that are on your schedule, time will tell if he can continue on this run. He has also missed 7 games, so unless he is actually hurt, he won't miss many more games.

The Sixers have a tough rest schedule coming up
8 B2B's left (only played in 5 so far, and Embiid played in 3 of them - 2 vs. TRASH teams, 1 vs. Boston (which he played poorly in))

Denver has played 8 B2B's already (Jokic played in 7)

I *ASSUME* that Embiid is gonna be resting some B2B's as he's always done - what would you estimate, 50% of them? That means at least 4 rest games...and if they secure their seed by end of year, I assume he'd sit the final game of the regular season too? So that would mean 5 missed games.

One minor injury would mean no MVP OR he'd need to skip rest games...which doesn't bode well for playoff Embiid.

Did you count the one in Denver?

[dygaction]

I disagree with you-

Luka has always had a cast (not a great cast) since he came in the league and since he is so ball dominant and with a horrible coach - they don’t get the most out of the talent around him. We cant pretend that Brunson is a scrub anymore…. And Lively and Kyrie are not garbage lol…. But either way - Luka isn’t ahead of those guys to me - he is on par with SGA but not Giannis- and definitely not playing as well and Embiid or Jokic.

I’m pretty sure everyone knows Jokic is the best player on earth- including Luka and Giannis and Embiid lol

Yes, I too think Jokic is the best basketball player on earth. That doesn't change what I'm saying.

With Brunson he made a conference finals so that's kinda a moot point. And Kyrie has been injured half the season. Lively is missing a bunch of games too. And Lively's a rookie. Dante Exum has been the next best player. Guess what, he's injured too! The supporting cast is pretty much non-existent beyond those players. Luka does not have an acceptable supporting cast for him to be contending.

All Of that is true- but you can’t give Luka all the credit and none of the blame for being in 7th. At some point - the guys at the tip top are the reason why you win or lose in the minds of the MVP voters.

Luka one of the 5-10 best players on earth - and if all things equal- the 3 better players than Luka with better records than Luka - Giannis, jokic and Embiid - will always beat him in mvp IF stats are close.

It also hurts Luka’s chances when SGA is playing as well or better on some nights and they are both young guns -

lol, year after year, you have been using Trae, Booker, Tatum, and now the imaginary 5-10 to compare Luka to. There are no three players better than Luka, but there are three comparable players on better teams.

[Baz]

I disagree with you-

Luka has always had a cast (not a great cast) since he came in the league and since he is so ball dominant and with a horrible coach - they don’t get the most out of the talent around him. We cant pretend that Brunson is a scrub anymore…. And Lively and Kyrie are not garbage lol…. But either way - Luka isn’t ahead of those guys to me - he is on par with SGA but not Giannis- and definitely not playing as well and Embiid or Jokic.

I’m pretty sure everyone knows Jokic is the best player on earth- including Luka and Giannis and Embiid lol

Yes, I too think Jokic is the best basketball player on earth. That doesn't change what I'm saying.

With Brunson he made a conference finals so that's kinda a moot point. And Kyrie has been injured half the season. Lively is missing a bunch of games too. And Lively's a rookie. Dante Exum has been the next best player. Guess what, he's injured too! The supporting cast is pretty much non-existent beyond those players. Luka does not have an acceptable supporting cast for him to be contending.

All Of that is true- but you can’t give Luka all the credit and none of the blame for being in 7th. At some point - the guys at the tip top are the reason why you win or lose in the minds of the MVP voters.

Luka one of the 5-10 best players on earth - and if all things equal- the 3 better players than Luka with better records than Luka - Giannis, jokic and Embiid - will always beat him in mvp IF stats are close.

It also hurts Luka’s chances when SGA is playing as well or better on some nights and they are both young guns -

One of the 5 best, yes. Don't throw in 5-10 I remember our convo where you thought Booker was on the same tier as Luka.

Certified Luka hater/lover. I do love our exchanges though. You make me laugh with the backhanded Luka compliments.

[dygaction]

Yes, I too think Jokic is the best basketball player on earth. That doesn't change what I'm saying.

With Brunson he made a conference finals so that's kinda a moot point. And Kyrie has been injured half the season. Lively is missing a bunch of games too. And Lively's a rookie. Dante Exum has been the next best player. Guess what, he's injured too! The supporting cast is pretty much non-existent beyond those players. Luka does not have an acceptable supporting cast for him to be contending.

All Of that is true- but you can’t give Luka all the credit and none of the blame for being in 7th. At some point - the guys at the tip top are the reason why you win or lose in the minds of the MVP voters.

Luka one of the 5-10 best players on earth - and if all things equal- the 3 better players than Luka with better records than Luka - Giannis, jokic and Embiid - will always beat him in mvp IF stats are close.

It also hurts Luka’s chances when SGA is playing as well or better on some nights and they are both young guns -

One of the 5 best, yes. Don't throw in 5-10 I remember our convo where you thought Booker was on the same tier as Luka.

Certified Luka hater/lover. I do love our exchanges though. You make me laugh with the backhanded Luka compliments.

Every year there are new young star emerge and compared to Luka, from Trae, Tatum, Booker, and now SGA, but they were all slightly older than Luka. Dude was super mad when Luka made 1st team but Trae did not in 2022 we had lots of interesting exchanges.

[Baz]

All Of that is true- but you can’t give Luka all the credit and none of the blame for being in 7th. At some point - the guys at the tip top are the reason why you win or lose in the minds of the MVP voters.

Luka one of the 5-10 best players on earth - and if all things equal- the 3 better players than Luka with better records than Luka - Giannis, jokic and Embiid - will always beat him in mvp IF stats are close.

It also hurts Luka’s chances when SGA is playing as well or better on some nights and they are both young guns -

One of the 5 best, yes. Don't throw in 5-10 I remember our convo where you thought Booker was on the same tier as Luka.

Certified Luka hater/lover. I do love our exchanges though. You make me laugh with the backhanded Luka compliments.

Every year there are new young star emerge and compared to Luka, from Trae, Tatum, Booker, and now SGA, but they were all slightly older than Luka. Dude was super mad when Luka made 1st team but Trae did not in 2022 we had lots of interesting exchanges.

I remember there was this so-called scout on Twitter back when Luka first got drafted who thought he belonged in the 2nd round of the draft. Was ultra high on Trae. And called himself Yoda or something. We may have found him on RealGM

[JWillTheFreak]

Joker can have a bad game and nuggets lose and he still the best, while other candidates have a bad night they drop dramatically in the rankings. Some of this stuff is funny to read.

[JWillTheFreak]

Also Mavs could be 7th right but they only 2 games back from 4th I believe and their whole team been injury prone this season. They had around twenty different lineups.

[jokeboy86]

I know the national media dislikes talking about him because of his lack of personality and overall media engagement plus load management but at some point Kawhi's name should probably be brought up more often in the MVP talks. He's having his best season ever shooting from the field, the Clippers have been rolling, and he's actually played 29 out of the 33 games this season. He has to be acknowledged.

[Cubbies2120]

Joker can have a bad game and nuggets lose and he still the best, while other candidates have a bad night they drop dramatically in the rankings. Some of this stuff is funny to read.

You talking about the two of 35 games he's had (a month ago)? He did drop, both in the power rankings and the NBA MVP voting odds.