NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (continued)

[bigboi]

Bucks end up with top 2 seed in East, give me Giannis. Team is garbage like I’ve been saying all year.

Their team is mostly garbage because their coach sucks.

The coach that Giannis wanted…so he deserves blame too.

Lillard isn’t playing up to his contract. Lebron has handpicked his coaches all throughout and y’all never used it as a way to take away his MVP chances. Take Giannis off this team and they’re prob at the bottom of the East. You put Giannis on any team in the East, they’re prob a top seed. You put Giannis next to Cade Cunningham, they’re prob number 2

[AleksandarN]

I think philly has 8 b2b’s left on the year. Embiid really may not make the games played cutoff for mvp. Will be tight.

Eh he would have played if he didn't get hurt. Bigger concern is the playoffs imo. This doesn't bode well. Hopefully he can get all of his injuries out of the way, and be healthy there. That's all I care about. An MVP is gravy... Chip is the #1 goal...

That can said be said of all of the Big 3(Giannis, Embiid and Jokic) This feels like the big 3 era in Tennis with Fed, Nadal and Novak. The big 3 will rule the NBA for next 5 years I think

[celtxman]

how many more games does embiid have to miss to not qualify for end of season awards. seems like every other sixer game he is out because of injury

65 is the limit. He can miss 9 more games.

As of now if the season ended today and they pro-rated games played Embiid would be ineligible. 65 games is 79% of the games and Embiid is at 77%. It isn't about the technicality of today its about his injury history and his history of needing more time off as the season goes on. The Sixers really needed to manage his health rather than go for an award

[WhatTheBuck]

I don't think I've ever seen a bigger carry job than Giannis and this Bucks team. The team is as woeful as he is brilliant.

[GeorgeSears]

I don't think I've ever seen a bigger carry job than Giannis and this Bucks team. The team is as woeful as he is brilliant.

He's not getting the credit he deserves because of the Dame narrative. I think Giannis deferred way too much to Dame early on to get him adjusted to the team.

[Infinite Llamas]

Bucks end up with top 2 seed in East, give me Giannis. Team is garbage like I’ve been saying all year.

Their team is mostly garbage because their coach sucks.

The coach that Giannis wanted…so he deserves blame too.

Lillard isn’t playing up to his contract. Lebron has handpicked his coaches all throughout and y’all never used it as a way to take away his MVP chances. Take Giannis off this team and they’re prob at the bottom of the East. You put Giannis on any team in the East, they’re prob a top seed. You put Giannis next to Cade Cunningham, they’re prob number 2

They had a coach who won them a championship just two years prior. Getting rid of coach Bud was so insanely stupid and even if they wanted to go in a new direction, the solution is to hire a rookie coach opposed to a guy with credential like Nick Nurse? Giannis had a say in Buds removal and a say in Griffin…that was his guy.

Lillard is still averaging 25/7 despite his awful play as of late. They got rid of Jrue. They got rid of Bud. This is the roster that Giannis wanted. So I won’t shed any tears when they fall short despite his efforts. And no amount of hyperbolic exercises about Cade Cunningham will change the fact that the Bucks are largely underwhelming as so called contenders this year. Give him Cade. Who cares? They won’t win in the playoffs anyways because the team is a rudderless mess.

[WhatTheBuck]

Damian Lillard needs a psyche ward right now.

[Infinite Llamas]

Damian Lillard needs a psyche ward right now.

Divorce. His coach got canned. Milwaukee winters over Miami beaches.

…and small guards games can fall off a cliff in their 30’s. Isaiah, AI, Kemba…

Fortune hasn’t been smiling on Dame lately.

[Doctor MJ]

Bucks end up with top 2 seed in East, give me Giannis. Team is garbage like I’ve been saying all year.

Their team is mostly garbage because their coach sucks.

The coach that Giannis wanted…so he deserves blame too.

Lillard isn’t playing up to his contract. Lebron has handpicked his coaches all throughout and y’all never used it as a way to take away his MVP chances. Take Giannis off this team and they’re prob at the bottom of the East. You put Giannis on any team in the East, they’re prob a top seed. You put Giannis next to Cade Cunningham, they’re prob number 2

Uh, do consider that the last time LeBron won an MVP was 2013. If you think the cumulative weight of stuff like this isn't something that drags guys other than Giannis down, zoom out a bit.

Re: Take Giannis off this team and they're probably at the bottom of the East. Y'know, there's a whole stat family we used to see evidence for this sort of thing called "plus minus".

[Lakers In 5]

I think philly has 8 b2b’s left on the year. Embiid really may not make the games played cutoff for mvp. Will be tight.

Let’s be real, Embiid is the type of person to suit up for 10 minutes and call it a day if he ever got in trouble of making the cut of playing 65 games.

[bigboi]

Their team is mostly garbage because their coach sucks.

The coach that Giannis wanted…so he deserves blame too.

Lillard isn’t playing up to his contract. Lebron has handpicked his coaches all throughout and y’all never used it as a way to take away his MVP chances. Take Giannis off this team and they’re prob at the bottom of the East. You put Giannis on any team in the East, they’re prob a top seed. You put Giannis next to Cade Cunningham, they’re prob number 2

Uh, do consider that the last time LeBron won an MVP was 2013. If you think the cumulative weight of stuff like this isn't something that drags guys other than Giannis down, zoom out a bit.

Re: Take Giannis off this team and they're probably at the bottom of the East. Y'know, there's a whole stat family we used to see evidence for this sort of thing called "plus minus".

That’s the same stat family that claimed that Grizzlies would be fine without Morant. Some of you clearly don’t know how sports work at all. You have an absolutely pitiful defensive team who would be lead by an injury prone inconsistent all star player and you don’t think that isn’t a recipe for disaster? It’s literally common sense. The team would resemble Beal Wizards. Just flat out not good

[Doctor MJ]

Lillard isn’t playing up to his contract. Lebron has handpicked his coaches all throughout and y’all never used it as a way to take away his MVP chances. Take Giannis off this team and they’re prob at the bottom of the East. You put Giannis on any team in the East, they’re prob a top seed. You put Giannis next to Cade Cunningham, they’re prob number 2

Uh, do consider that the last time LeBron won an MVP was 2013. If you think the cumulative weight of stuff like this isn't something that drags guys other than Giannis down, zoom out a bit.

Re: Take Giannis off this team and they're probably at the bottom of the East. Y'know, there's a whole stat family we used to see evidence for this sort of thing called "plus minus".

That’s the same stat family that claimed that Grizzlies would be fine without Morant. Some of you clearly don’t know how sports work at all. You have an absolutely pitiful defensive team who would be lead by an injury prone inconsistent all star player and you don’t think that isn’t a recipe for disaster? It’s literally common sense. The team would resemble Beal Wizards. Just flat out not good

Stats don't make claims, people do.

[WhatTheBuck]

Lillard isn’t playing up to his contract. Lebron has handpicked his coaches all throughout and y’all never used it as a way to take away his MVP chances. Take Giannis off this team and they’re prob at the bottom of the East. You put Giannis on any team in the East, they’re prob a top seed. You put Giannis next to Cade Cunningham, they’re prob number 2

Uh, do consider that the last time LeBron won an MVP was 2013. If you think the cumulative weight of stuff like this isn't something that drags guys other than Giannis down, zoom out a bit.

Re: Take Giannis off this team and they're probably at the bottom of the East. Y'know, there's a whole stat family we used to see evidence for this sort of thing called "plus minus".

That’s the same stat family that claimed that Grizzlies would be fine without Morant. Some of you clearly don’t know how sports work at all. You have an absolutely pitiful defensive team who would be lead by an injury prone inconsistent all star player and you don’t think that isn’t a recipe for disaster? It’s literally common sense. The team would resemble Beal Wizards. Just flat out not good

Plus minus - the ultimate correlation over causation stat of all time.

[VanWest82]

Shai down to +400 now. Betters have finally forced the line down to something reasonable. Too late to make big money but not to late to get on the bandwagon.

[Doctor MJ]

Uh, do consider that the last time LeBron won an MVP was 2013. If you think the cumulative weight of stuff like this isn't something that drags guys other than Giannis down, zoom out a bit.

Re: Take Giannis off this team and they're probably at the bottom of the East. Y'know, there's a whole stat family we used to see evidence for this sort of thing called "plus minus".

That’s the same stat family that claimed that Grizzlies would be fine without Morant. Some of you clearly don’t know how sports work at all. You have an absolutely pitiful defensive team who would be lead by an injury prone inconsistent all star player and you don’t think that isn’t a recipe for disaster? It’s literally common sense. The team would resemble Beal Wizards. Just flat out not good

Plus minus - the ultimate correlation over causation stat of all time.

Inferring causation from correlation is pretty much what human beings do when they draw conclusions.

[VanWest82]

Lillard isn’t playing up to his contract. Lebron has handpicked his coaches all throughout and y’all never used it as a way to take away his MVP chances. Take Giannis off this team and they’re prob at the bottom of the East. You put Giannis on any team in the East, they’re prob a top seed. You put Giannis next to Cade Cunningham, they’re prob number 2

Uh, do consider that the last time LeBron won an MVP was 2013. If you think the cumulative weight of stuff like this isn't something that drags guys other than Giannis down, zoom out a bit.

Re: Take Giannis off this team and they're probably at the bottom of the East. Y'know, there's a whole stat family we used to see evidence for this sort of thing called "plus minus".

That’s the same stat family that claimed that Grizzlies would be fine without Morant. Some of you clearly don’t know how sports work at all. You have an absolutely pitiful defensive team who would be lead by an injury prone inconsistent all star player and you don’t think that isn’t a recipe for disaster? It’s literally common sense. The team would resemble Beal Wizards. Just flat out not good

Eh...Bucks have played over 500 mins minus Giannis this year and they're essentially the same team defensively without him (114.2) as with him (113.9). The much bigger gap is on offense (121.2 vs. 111.6).

[WhatTheBuck]

That’s the same stat family that claimed that Grizzlies would be fine without Morant. Some of you clearly don’t know how sports work at all. You have an absolutely pitiful defensive team who would be lead by an injury prone inconsistent all star player and you don’t think that isn’t a recipe for disaster? It’s literally common sense. The team would resemble Beal Wizards. Just flat out not good

Plus minus - the ultimate correlation over causation stat of all time.

Inferring causation from correlation is pretty much what human beings do when they draw conclusions.

Yeah, and its pretty much the reason why some of the conclusions we draw are dumb ones.

For example, does plus minus take into account what a team needs to expend to stop a player? Does it take into account that he makes it easier for a bench unit to take over because he has exhausted the best players of the opposition that have to sit when he sits because their sole focus is to try and contain him?

Does it take into account whether a player is playing with the best players on his team or whether he is allowing other players to take a break whilst he plays with the bench?

Does it take into account how good/bad the rest of the squad is?

[WhatTheBuck]

Uh, do consider that the last time LeBron won an MVP was 2013. If you think the cumulative weight of stuff like this isn't something that drags guys other than Giannis down, zoom out a bit.

Re: Take Giannis off this team and they're probably at the bottom of the East. Y'know, there's a whole stat family we used to see evidence for this sort of thing called "plus minus".

That’s the same stat family that claimed that Grizzlies would be fine without Morant. Some of you clearly don’t know how sports work at all. You have an absolutely pitiful defensive team who would be lead by an injury prone inconsistent all star player and you don’t think that isn’t a recipe for disaster? It’s literally common sense. The team would resemble Beal Wizards. Just flat out not good

Eh...Bucks have played over 500 mins minus Giannis this year and they're essentially the same team defensively without him (114.2) as with him (113.9). The much bigger gap is on offense (121.2 vs. 111.6).

That right there should tell you how irrelevant plus minus is. A DPOY doesn't make the Bucks better defensively. Right...

[VanWest82]

That’s the same stat family that claimed that Grizzlies would be fine without Morant. Some of you clearly don’t know how sports work at all. You have an absolutely pitiful defensive team who would be lead by an injury prone inconsistent all star player and you don’t think that isn’t a recipe for disaster? It’s literally common sense. The team would resemble Beal Wizards. Just flat out not good

Eh...Bucks have played over 500 mins minus Giannis this year and they're essentially the same team defensively without him (114.2) as with him (113.9). The much bigger gap is on offense (121.2 vs. 111.6).

That right there should tell you how irrelevant plus minus is. A DPOY doesn't make the Bucks better defensively. Right...

AD should've won DPOY that year but I digress. Giannis was incredible defensively in 2020 though. But do yourself a favour, go look at the tracking stats each year since then and see which teammate of Giannis's regularly appears on the leaderboard. Then go look at on court DRTG vs. off court DRTG of that teammate and compare with Giannis. You'll start to see it isn't so obvious who's really responsible or how to divide that responsibility/recognition.

[WhatTheBuck]

Eh...Bucks have played over 500 mins minus Giannis this year and they're essentially the same team defensively without him (114.2) as with him (113.9). The much bigger gap is on offense (121.2 vs. 111.6).

That right there should tell you how irrelevant plus minus is. A DPOY doesn't make the Bucks better defensively. Right...

AD should've won DPOY that year but I digress. Giannis was incredible defensively in 2020 though. But do yourself a favour, go look at the tracking stats each year since then and see which teammate of Giannis's regularly appears on the leaderboard. Then go look at on court DRTG vs. off court DRTG of that teammate and compare with Giannis. You'll start to see it isn't so obvious who's really responsible or how to divide that responsibility/recognition.

Cool, whilst I do that, do yourself a favour and watch some Bucks games, and it kinda becomes obvious.