Legler and JJ break down modern offenses, why scoring is up, etc.

[Sedale Threatt]

LOL again, literally 27 out of the 30 highest rated NBA Finals games were from 1988 to 1998!

Turns out people enjoyed having variety in styles of play with teams being able to impose their will on the defensive end without neutering them with a bunch of artificial rules to enhance offensively limited and soft players that can only shoot 3’s and drive open lanes!

Physicality created intense rivalries which have become virtually non-existent in today’s soft AAU buddy buddy “chuck till you drop” sanitized soccer mom friendly NBA.

This is why former players and older fans don’t respect this “beginner level” incarnation of the game and to tell you the truth players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Dream or Kareem would’ve probably lost interest quite rapidly playing in the present boring league without much defensive resistance!

Meanwhile, with vastly more expensive tickets, the NBA just set records for total attendance, average attendance, percentage of capacity and total sellouts in the 2022-23 regular season.

https://www.nba.com/news/nba-sets-all-time-records-for-attendance-and-sellouts-during-2022-23-regular-season

At least they have some sort of audience LOL!!

The 80’s/90’s had full stadiums and glued eyeballs to the TV because they had the golden generation of players, teams, rivalries and play styles specially from 1984 to 1993 (greatest period in league history by far).

Like that horrible “Redeam Team” doc showed, the generation that came after the “Dream Team” was just not as talented or riveting and just downright sleep inducing boring!

Keep chucking those 3’s, the numb skull millennials seem to love it just like Taylor Swift! JEJEJE

If it was just "numb skull millennials" the NBA wouldn't be packing arenas like it never has before, or on the verge of doubling its media deals within 10 years, or have their franchise values double within the same span, or pull in the third-most revenue of any professional sports league in the world (essentially a dead heat with MLB at second).

I'm not nostalgic in the slightest, but I get the pining for a bygone era to an extent. I've been resigned to the fact that I'll never enjoy a basketball player as much as Magic for a good 30 years now. To go from Bird-Magic to Jordan was a special time that almost certainly never be duplicated. It was fun to watch. Then it ended, and most of us moved on with our lives & fandoms.

Because no matter how much you want to scream and cry and complain and insult, the league is in exceptionally healthy shape.

[Braggins]

Meanwhile, with vastly more expensive tickets, the NBA just set records for total attendance, average attendance, percentage of capacity and total sellouts in the 2022-23 regular season.

https://www.nba.com/news/nba-sets-all-time-records-for-attendance-and-sellouts-during-2022-23-regular-season

I'm shocked to learn that people watched more broadcast TV in the 80s/90s than they do in 2024. The only explanation is that 80s/90s NBA was the peak of basketball.

I also grew up watching 90s NBA and appreciate it for what it is, but I have no desire to go back to anything resembling that.

Oh don’t worry Adam Silver is the perfect commish for this soft generation of players and fans alike so he would never attempt to bring physicality and grit back to the game!

The “chuck and duck” era will only get more atrocious in the next few years with no true player or team rivalries with squads combining for 100 3 pint attempts per game, book it!

Silver should make a rule that if you are behind the 3pt line you are only allowed to shoot with one hand. That'll put these punk kids in their place!

[Braggins]

Because no matter how much you want to scream and cry and complain and insult, the league is in exceptionally healthy shape.

Also, basketball is the third most popular sport in the world right now behind soccer and cricket. The global talent level is just insane. The WNBA is also improving if you are into that sort of thing. Its pretty much the best time ever to be a basketball fan imo (maybe unless you are just really into NCAA).

[GrandTheftRondo]

legit shocking how effective the bulls full court press was in the 90s, really highlights the lack of ball-handling teams had back in the day:

Watch on YouTube

I mean yea the Knicks did that to themselves playing defensive line-ups, but still shocking.

No way this works against modern offenses.

Yeah so many more players who couldn’t even use their off hand effectively.

It’s funny watching the 92 finals. Jordan has a massive amount of dribble moves, can use both hands effectively etc. Meanwhile his star opponent Clyde Drexler almost looks like a 60s player, heavily favouring his right hand dribble all game.

Yeah go ask Shaq, the most dominant force in NBA history how easy it was to dominate the 90’s and older versions of players like Drexler/Olajuwon, Stockton/Malone and Jordan/Pippen! LOL Funny how nobody dogs Shaq for having to wait until the Bulls, Knicks, Jazz and Rockets had to get old before him, Kobe and Duncan could start reaching up titles!

Like a lot of posters have said throwing all the carrying/travel rules out the window has gone hand in hand with the softening of the rules by gradually removing physicality. Allen Iverson basically forced the league’s hand on this and we see were it has led the league.

When one of the dumbest least self aware players in NBA history in Russell Westbrick can average a triple double for three years, win MVP and lead his time to 50+ wins in the supposedly “tough” conference you know the league has become “kiddie mode” when compared to the past.

Weird back in the day rant.

All I was saying is that today’s guards have more skills dribbling. The players have evolved and can do more these days with the basketball/

If you want to deny this, go ahead.

Reality is 30-40 years ago guys growing up were being taught to play the game in a completely different manner.

Of course the rules have had an impact. But the sport has evolved.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Lmao it's all a conspiracy! Got any spare tin foil hats? Instead of even addressing any claims they made, you called it a conspiracy and threw out some baseless claims.

Since you're so sure it is because of rule changes, let's hear about those rule changes that led to an explosion in scoring these past 5 years.

Tim Legler and JJ Redick do work for ESPN, under contract.
That's not a conspiracy
Their job is literally to promote ESPN and its affiliates

Such a lazy take, lmao

Not as lazy as ignoring actual rule changes that have directly correlated with increases in scoring in recent years (see: freedom of movement).
But your life, believe what you want.
Rules have no impact on the game, sure, why not.

[76ciology]

Guys playing defense not to get into foul trouble which leads them to not have limited playing time which lead to not have less scoring opportunities which lead to not have lower salary amount.

Best players nowadays hides on defense
Role players nowadays wants to be scorers

Increase the pace and you get guys playing defense on basketball like wrestlers hurting their opponent in WWE.

[ScrantonBulls]

Tim Legler and JJ Redick do work for ESPN, under contract.
That's not a conspiracy
Their job is literally to promote ESPN and its affiliates

Such a lazy take, lmao

Not as lazy as ignoring actual rule changes that have directly correlated with increases in scoring in recent years (see: freedom of movement).
But your life, believe what you want.
Rules have no impact on the game, sure, why not.

Nah. You refused to watch the discussion because "Durr they work for ESPN therefore their discussion is completely biased and holds zero weight." Then you referenced rule changes without actually citing any rules changed. Like I said, lazy take.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Such a lazy take, lmao

Not as lazy as ignoring actual rule changes that have directly correlated with increases in scoring in recent years (see: freedom of movement).
But your life, believe what you want.
Rules have no impact on the game, sure, why not.

Nah. You refused to watch the discussion because "Durr they work for ESPN therefore their discussion is completely biased and holds zero weight." Then you referenced rule changes without actually citing any rules changed. Like I said, lazy take.

If you're unaware of recent rule changes, that's on you.
Though it's curious that you'd start a thread on a subject you admittedly know little about.

I do, however, love the irony of you policing lazy takes, when you started a thread essentially arguing that ESPN said all the recent increase in scoring is due to an incredible and sudden advancement of skill, so therefore that must be true
Definitely not a lazy take at all

[ScrantonBulls]

Not as lazy as ignoring actual rule changes that have directly correlated with increases in scoring in recent years (see: freedom of movement).
But your life, believe what you want.
Rules have no impact on the game, sure, why not.

Nah. You refused to watch the discussion because "Durr they work for ESPN therefore their discussion is completely biased and holds zero weight." Then you referenced rule changes without actually citing any rules changed. Like I said, lazy take.

If you're unaware of recent rule changes, that's on you.
Though it's curious that you'd start a thread on a subject you admittedly know little about.

I'm aware of it. I just think it's laughable that you think any analyst who works for a network associated with the NBA can't possibly be objective. ESPN and TNT are all in on it! I love a good conspiracy theory.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Nah. You refused to watch the discussion because "Durr they work for ESPN therefore their discussion is completely biased and holds zero weight." Then you referenced rule changes without actually citing any rules changed. Like I said, lazy take.

If you're unaware of recent rule changes, that's on you.
Though it's curious that you'd start a thread on a subject you admittedly know little about.

I'm aware of it. I just think it's laughable that you think any analyst who works for a network associated with the NBA can't possibly be objective. ESPN and TNT are all in on it! I love a good conspiracy theory.

And I love that you think people doing their job is a conspiracy lol
I'm sure ESPN has no issue paying people millions of dollars to bash the programs they broadcast, because NOTHING says objective journalism like ESPN!

[ScrantonBulls]

If you're unaware of recent rule changes, that's on you.
Though it's curious that you'd start a thread on a subject you admittedly know little about.

I'm aware of it. I just think it's laughable that you think any analyst who works for a network associated with the NBA can't possibly be objective. ESPN and TNT are all in on it! I love a good conspiracy theory.

And I love that you think people doing their job is a conspiracy lol
I'm sure ESPN has no issue paying people millions of dollars to bash the programs they broadcast, because NOTHING says objective journalism like ESPN!

What are you even watching? Ex-players that work for ESPN and TNT criticize the modern NBA and prop up the olden days constantly. It happens literally all the time.

[alebaba]

Freedom of movement got introduced, and that is why scoring is up. Let's be real: guys are so scared of really contesting a shot because you can get a flagrant foul. I shoot lights out in my pick-up games too when the guys who are guarding me are not playing me physically at all.

[CIN-C-STAR]

I'm aware of it. I just think it's laughable that you think any analyst who works for a network associated with the NBA can't possibly be objective. ESPN and TNT are all in on it! I love a good conspiracy theory.

And I love that you think people doing their job is a conspiracy lol
I'm sure ESPN has no issue paying people millions of dollars to bash the programs they broadcast, because NOTHING says objective journalism like ESPN!

What are you even watching? Ex-players that work for ESPN and TNT criticize the modern NBA and prop up the olden days constantly. It happens literally all the time.

I can tell you Zach Lowe has groaned once or twice about how much Lakers coverage he has to do now that he's an on-air personality.
But naw, I'm sure it's all in his head and there is zero pressure from the network to cover the league in any certain way
ESPN doesn't care about ratings, they strive for journalistic excellence only!
Who is the conspiracy theorist again?

[ScrantonBulls]

And I love that you think people doing their job is a conspiracy lol
I'm sure ESPN has no issue paying people millions of dollars to bash the programs they broadcast, because NOTHING says objective journalism like ESPN!

What are you even watching? Ex-players that work for ESPN and TNT criticize the modern NBA and prop up the olden days constantly. It happens literally all the time.

I can tell you Zach Lowe has groaned once or twice about how much Lakers coverage he has to do now that he's an on-air personality.
But naw, I'm sure it's all in his head and there is zero pressure from the network to cover the league in any certain way
ESPN doesn't care about ratings, they strive for journalistic excellence only!
Who is the conspiracy theorist again?

Let me get this straight. You're saying that analysts on networks associated with the NBA absolutely cannot be objective about the NBA and can't criticize it - and your evidence is because an ESPN employee complained about ESPN showing the Lakers a lot?

You're trying to tell me that ESPN covers the most popular team in the world, with the most popular player in the world/face of the game, more than other teams? STOP THE PRESSES FOLKS! We found something big here!

There's no way you are actually serious. I have to be getting trolled right now.

[CIN-C-STAR]

What are you even watching? Ex-players that work for ESPN and TNT criticize the modern NBA and prop up the olden days constantly. It happens literally all the time.

I can tell you Zach Lowe has groaned once or twice about how much Lakers coverage he has to do now that he's an on-air personality.
But naw, I'm sure it's all in his head and there is zero pressure from the network to cover the league in any certain way
ESPN doesn't care about ratings, they strive for journalistic excellence only!
Who is the conspiracy theorist again?

Let me get this straight. You're saying that analysts on networks associated with the NBA absolutely cannot be objective about the NBA and can't criticize it - and your evidence is because an ESPN employee complained about ESPN showing the Lakers a lot?

You're trying to tell me that ESPN covers the most popular team in the world, with the most popular player in the world/face of the game, more than other teams? STOP THE PRESSES FOLKS! We found something big here!

There's no way you are actually serious. I have to be getting trolled right now.

You're almost there....
Yes, ESPN covers what they think will get ratings, because ratings are a priority for them.
And as we've established, JJ & Legs work for ESPN....
Keep mulling it over. It's definitely going to click at some point.
Don't overthink it!

[Chuck Everett]

No one has been able to answer this for me.

On one hand, I keep hearing that the NBA offensive explosion is due to the talent, but on the other, I also keep hearing that AAU is ruining the game because no one knows how to play. Which one is it?

[Bel]

If their claims were actually true then you'd see a gradual improvement in team offenses year by year as things slowly evolved. Instead we have largely static numbers with minimal variance for long stretches and then massive jumps starting out of nowhere. It's no surprise that these massive jumps follow explicit or tacit rule changes. League offense didn't increase at all from the late 2000's to 2014, but suddenly when illegal screens are no longer called, defenders can't get close, and they can't even contest the same neutral space, offense explodes.

In fact, this also occurred in the 90's to 2004, just in the opposite direction. Chuck Daly and Pat Riley proved that if you run 'illegal' zones every play, the refs will stop calling it, so teams developed new zone schemes and offense plummeted.

We saw what happened to Curry in the later games of the 2016 finals when the refs allowed the Cavs to play 90's D on Curry. He was still good but not otherworldly. And if Curry suffered that much from the physicality, other guys would fare far worse.

And if their claims were actually true, you'd see NBA players seamlessly dominate in FIBA rules because they're so skilled. In fact, the opposite occurred. NBA MVP Giannis gets locked up by 39 y/o 'No Help' Varejao. The American team got humiliated last year. The game is harder when you can't carry and travel, and there's a big already in the paint when you drive. Of course the really top guys with elite fundamentals like Lebron and KD would dominate anywhere, but FIBA proved that most of the homegrown 'stars' and their 'stats' are artificially created by rules and refs.

Forget any of the old players. Young Lebron would eat this league up because we've seen his old self dominate it. Guaranteed 40 10 on mid 60's TS.

It's not like this is a bad thing overall, just different. Many modern players have traded one skillset for another. A lot of them have poor fundamentals, particularly footwork, and travel and carry every other play, while at the same time are great shooters and very explosive, along with having more options. Guards and wings have a much bigger repertoire of moves but post play has severely regressed.

But lying about the facts or allowing yourself to be deluded against the facts is just weak. I never would've guessed that the testimonies from top people in the league would be ignored. It's a verifiable fact that Silver to Stu Jackson and Joe Dumars have explicitly said they tried to make offense easier time and again. But hey, fantasy seems preferable to reality here.

[GrandTheftRondo]

Just lol at the Warriors inventing illegal screens

[Asianiac_24]

The traveling rule is also more and more lax, which means the offensive player can create a clean shot easier. The side step 3, step back 3, etc, I don't think those would be legal, even in the 2000s.

[SweaterBae]

The traveling rule is also more and more lax, which means the offensive player can create a clean shot easier. The side step 3, step back 3, etc, I don't think those would be legal, even in the 2000s.

There are incredibly intelligent, knowledgeable, kind people all over who literally don't know the definition of a dribble, perhaps the single most fundamental aspect of the entire sport.