Legler and JJ break down modern offenses, why scoring is up, etc.

[70sFan]

As always, people just can't be objective and admit that players getting more skilled/coaches getting smarter and rules becoming easier are both correct. "Old timers" have to talk about the soft league while the other side of the spectrum can't admit that the rules favour offenses significantly more than in the previous eras...

[og15]

If their claims were actually true then you'd see a gradual improvement in team offenses year by year as things slowly evolved. Instead we have largely static numbers with minimal variance for long stretches and then massive jumps starting out of nowhere. It's no surprise that these massive jumps follow explicit or tacit rule changes. League offense didn't increase at all from the late 2000's to 2014, but suddenly when illegal screens are no longer called, defenders can't get close, and they can't even contest the same neutral space, offense explodes.

In fact, this also occurred in the 90's to 2004, just in the opposite direction. Chuck Daly and Pat Riley proved that if you run 'illegal' zones every play, the refs will stop calling it, so teams developed new zone schemes and offense plummeted.

We saw what happened to Curry in the later games of the 2016 finals when the refs allowed the Cavs to play 90's D on Curry. He was still good but not otherworldly. And if Curry suffered that much from the physicality, other guys would fare far worse.

And if their claims were actually true, you'd see NBA players seamlessly dominate in FIBA rules because they're so skilled. In fact, the opposite occurred. NBA MVP Giannis gets locked up by 39 y/o 'No Help' Varejao. The American team got humiliated last year. The game is harder when you can't carry and travel, and there's a big already in the paint when you drive. Of course the really top guys with elite fundamentals like Lebron and KD would dominate anywhere, but FIBA proved that most of the homegrown 'stars' and their 'stats' are artificially created by rules and refs.

Forget any of the old players. Young Lebron would eat this league up because we've seen his old self dominate it. Guaranteed 40 10 on mid 60's TS.

It's not like this is a bad thing overall, just different. Many modern players have traded one skillset for another. A lot of them have poor fundamentals, particularly footwork, and travel and carry every other play, while at the same time are great shooters and very explosive, along with having more options. Guards and wings have a much bigger repertoire of moves but post play has severely regressed.

But lying about the facts or allowing yourself to be deluded against the facts is just weak. I never would've guessed that the testimonies from top people in the league would be ignored. It's a verifiable fact that Silver to Stu Jackson and Joe Dumars have explicitly said they tried to make offense easier time and again. But hey, fantasy seems preferable to reality here.

This isn't a thing. I was recently watching Philly vs Milwaukee and commenting to myself how much the screener for Ray Allen would get away with stepping into the path of the defender chasing him with no call and with the defender sometimes looking at the ref

Illegal screens definitely aren't new, and of course KG has been illegal screening everyone long before the Curry Warriors were even thought of, but there are multiple factors that led to the boost in offense, and rules are definitely part of it.

As always, people just can't be objective and admit that players getting more skilled/coaches getting smarter and rules becoming easier are both correct. "Old timers" have to talk about the soft league while the other side of the spectrum can't admit that the rules favour offenses significantly more than in the previous eras...

Yea, it's not one or the other, and if the NBA and worldwide basketball has 50+ years of film, so much access, worldwide expansion, analytics, and they don't optimize skills, training, strategies and efficiency, that would actually mean they were dumb. If we think they didn't improve these things, then we're watching a league with a bunch of idiots, and I don't think that's the case. Now, this also doesn't mean the rules haven't helped. The rules were generally being put in place to overcome previous limitations that strategies had not yet overcome. The problem is that due to how much analysis we have these days, strategy is being updated so fast, and the NBA should actually be less quick to add rules to help things out. For example, yes, changing illegal defense to 3 in the key did big down offense, because offense then required more shooting and teams were built with terrible shooting, playing 2-3 non outside shooters many times. But the Mavs, a team built with shooting had a 112.1 Ortg, and despite their ATG level offensive players, their overall level of team shooting pales compared to what we have on the average team now. Team build and strategy was the real issue, but the NBA wasn't going to wait for teams to catch up and new crop of players to come in to help that out (understandably), so they tweaked the rules.

They did at least learn about unintended consequences in the past with the shorter 3PT line increasing efficiency but still decreasing pace and scoring and not causing less iso ball, because the scoring decrease was actually more about how to manipulate previous illegal defense rules and make isolation scoring more difficult to contain. Having more players able to shoot the three actually helped that strategy vs hurting it, so even though offenses could be more efficient, they could also use the iso strategy more because more of their players could hit the three effectively (and the good ones even more effectively) and punish defenses for doubling.

Certainly now the NBA tests their rules in the G-League before going to the main league, but sometimes you have to let things play out a little.

Yes, in the 80's there were a lot of similar rules to the 90's, but teams weren't exploiting the rules. The reality of sports and especially professional sports is that at some point in time, someone will find some exploit for the current rules, and the tough decision is what to do about the exploit.

[og15]

No one has been able to answer this for me.

On one hand, I keep hearing that the NBA offensive explosion is due to the talent, but on the other, I also keep hearing that AAU is ruining the game because no one knows how to play. Which one is it?

AAU can help develops individual scoring skills and solation ability, which is also good, but overall, it is poor at developing team skills in general compared to other systems in other places (there are exceptions of course and there are also excellent AAU coaches). For the most part, American players also go to college for at least a season and get some fine tuning.

Skill development though is mostly in the off-season and players have access to skill development that we never had before. Just in the last 10 years it's drastically different. I'm comparing to when I was growing up and looking for training to what is out there now:
https://youtu.be/hXimVBvVFUs?si=0I5lxHRTzKPoRC8-

https://youtu.be/zh2JLinO-ws?si=8I6SIsKucnK26ige

https://youtu.be/tu99DspyVrs?si=VbXKKv_mL15SiuDy

https://youtu.be/wFrUCEE-Fi4?si=6IlpQxVcmCWkl83T

https://youtu.be/6gNQeiUIbBU?si=GRVQEXu8QO7It3MN

I would have killed to have these. We had like Better Basketball and Jason Otter, ( ) and stuff, but the access to online content and then to live training in the digital age (which allows you to connect to so much more) has just skyrocketed compared to just 20 years ago. iPhone is what, 16 years old? The internet always era has given so much access. I can go to the gym and follow a full high level workout on my phone, watch the moves over and over to get it right. When I was younger I wrote down or printed out my basketball workouts, but I didn't have live tutorials. Access to group training and individual training was just not the same.


.....but then we also have to account for foreign talent as the NBA isn't simply American talent.

[ItsDanger]

NEVER let 2 people who have an inherent bias provide your analysis.

[nikster]

And if their claims were actually true, you'd see NBA players seamlessly dominate in FIBA rules because they're so skilled. In fact, the opposite occurred. NBA MVP Giannis gets locked up by 39 y/o 'No Help' Varejao. The American team got humiliated last year. The game is harder when you can't carry and travel, and there's a big already in the paint when you drive. Of course the really top guys with elite fundamentals like Lebron and KD would dominate anywhere, but FIBA proved that most of the homegrown 'stars' and their 'stats' are artificially created by rules and refs.

The international argument Is a terrible one. First of all, everywhere has seen an explosion in skill and talent, especially in international talent.

You bring up Giannis disappointing 2019 run but ignore he averaged 30/9/5 in eurobaskrt in 2022?

The 2023 USA roster was a poorly fit together B team. In the 2004 Olympics at the height of the low scoring era of NBA basketball, USA lost to Argentina, they had 2 recent MVPs in their prime on the roster. Iverson only shot 39% from 2 point range, would have been a career low for him in the NBA. If NBA defenses were so tough why didn't anybody from the 2004 Olympic team dominate?

[nikster]

No one has been able to answer this for me.

On one hand, I keep hearing that the NBA offensive explosion is due to the talent, but on the other, I also keep hearing that AAU is ruining the game because no one knows how to play. Which one is it?

AAU can help develops individual scoring skills and solation ability, which is also good, but overall, it is poor at developing team skills in general compared to other systems in other places (there are exceptions of course and there are also excellent AAU coaches). For the most part, American players also go to college for at least a season and get some fine tuning.

Skill development though is mostly in the off-season and players have access to skill development that we never had before. Just in the last 10 years it's drastically different. I'm comparing to when I was growing up and looking for training to what is out there now:
https://youtu.be/hXimVBvVFUs?si=0I5lxHRTzKPoRC8-

https://youtu.be/zh2JLinO-ws?si=8I6SIsKucnK26ige

https://youtu.be/tu99DspyVrs?si=VbXKKv_mL15SiuDy

https://youtu.be/wFrUCEE-Fi4?si=6IlpQxVcmCWkl83T

https://youtu.be/6gNQeiUIbBU?si=GRVQEXu8QO7It3MN

I would have killed to have these. We had like Better Basketball and Jason Otter, ( ) and stuff, but the access to online content and then to live training in the digital age (which allows you to connect to so much more) has just skyrocketed compared to just 20 years ago. iPhone is what, 16 years old? The internet always era has given so much access. I can go to the gym and follow a full high level workout on my phone, watch the moves over and over to get it right. When I was younger I wrote down or printed out my basketball workouts, but I didn't have live tutorials. Access to group training and individual training was just not the same.


.....but then we also have to account for foreign talent as the NBA isn't simply American talent.

And it's not just players, now even low level coaches have access to drills, playbooks etc..

[og15]

No one has been able to answer this for me.

On one hand, I keep hearing that the NBA offensive explosion is due to the talent, but on the other, I also keep hearing that AAU is ruining the game because no one knows how to play. Which one is it?

AAU can help develops individual scoring skills and solation ability, which is also good, but overall, it is poor at developing team skills in general compared to other systems in other places (there are exceptions of course and there are also excellent AAU coaches). For the most part, American players also go to college for at least a season and get some fine tuning.

Skill development though is mostly in the off-season and players have access to skill development that we never had before. Just in the last 10 years it's drastically different. I'm comparing to when I was growing up and looking for training to what is out there now:
https://youtu.be/hXimVBvVFUs?si=0I5lxHRTzKPoRC8-

https://youtu.be/zh2JLinO-ws?si=8I6SIsKucnK26ige

https://youtu.be/tu99DspyVrs?si=VbXKKv_mL15SiuDy

https://youtu.be/wFrUCEE-Fi4?si=6IlpQxVcmCWkl83T

https://youtu.be/6gNQeiUIbBU?si=GRVQEXu8QO7It3MN

I would have killed to have these. We had like Better Basketball and Jason Otter, ( ) and stuff, but the access to online content and then to live training in the digital age (which allows you to connect to so much more) has just skyrocketed compared to just 20 years ago. iPhone is what, 16 years old? The internet always era has given so much access. I can go to the gym and follow a full high level workout on my phone, watch the moves over and over to get it right. When I was younger I wrote down or printed out my basketball workouts, but I didn't have live tutorials. Access to group training and individual training was just not the same.


.....but then we also have to account for foreign talent as the NBA isn't simply American talent.

And it's not just players, now even low level coaches have access to drills, playbooks etc..

Yes, exactly, you can learn how to coach a team better than many coaches from a good 40 hour YouTube session and paying no money

...and even coaches training their players, my coach did his best, but I look back and I know if he was coaching now, our in season skill development and practices would have been much better, just because his resources would be much better.

Even something like shooting, how we used to all be taught things like 10 toes to the rim, don't dip, etc, and now it's like actually turning feet to the opposite side of shooting arm aligns the shooting arm and shoulder better and is much more comfortable for most shooters, and dip gives you better rhythm and arc, and we go back and look at film of many of the great shooters, and most they turn, dip, etc vs the principles from two handed shooting that were kept despite basketball changing to one hand a long time ago.

Or shooting off the hop vs the one two. I used to do it here and there in the past, then from watching training videos like 10 years ago, they talked about how the hop is more efficient and I added it as my primary way and it took my shooting to a different level, very small thing, but 1-2 was more dominant in most teaching before (though people hopped too).

There's a a guy I play with in his late 40's who coaches and he was talking about how well I shoot, and I was telling him about my shooting development and adding the hop, and he was like "Yes! I love the hop. I'm now trying to teach all the kids I coach to hop into their shot, it's so much quicker".

[tamaraw08]

ehh idk. To me there is a lot more ticky tacky fouls nowadays compared to early 00s and before. They abolished the hand check which hurts the defense alot. Yea I agree players are more skilled today and they go to the hoop more. But back then a little guy like Allen Iverson goes to the rim and Shaq is there to put him on his back, that doesn't happen as much in todays game where the big man deliberately knocks the little guards down on their behinds just for going to the hoop to intimidate them.

We can all agree the pace is much MUCH more faster today which helps scoring go up. Also back then the mid range was a huge part of the game. Most shots were from the mid range and the best scorers shot the ball from mid range most of the time. Now alot of the shots are from the 3 or layup. So it's higher percentage shots from the paint or the 3 pt line. Players don't shoot those long range 2s like the Duncan, KG, Webber, Durk, Kobe etc.. did back then, they might as well take the 3 if you're going to shoot a long range shot instead. All in all, yes the game has evolved kinda.

I think the AI/Shaq part is greatly exaggerated. You act like if a guard drove to the hoop, a big man would be waiting there to obliterate him for simply driving to the hoop. This is one of those things that has being mythologized. Do you have any video examples of this? It wasn't as bad as you make it seem. Guards were still able to drive to the hoop without being scared of getting destroyed.

I agree. Back then too, there was no verstical rule so attacking players like Iverson and Kobe got the benefit of almost automatic FT's. Iverson was taking 9-10 FTs/game.
And I still remember Shaq getting a flagrant foul against him when he jump straight up to meet the 5-11 Travis Best in midair. The Pacers PG took a bad fall but it was clear Shaq jump straight up.
Maybe the Piston's bad boys, those guys got away with hard fouls though.

[ScrantonBulls]

ehh idk. To me there is a lot more ticky tacky fouls nowadays compared to early 00s and before. They abolished the hand check which hurts the defense alot. Yea I agree players are more skilled today and they go to the hoop more. But back then a little guy like Allen Iverson goes to the rim and Shaq is there to put him on his back, that doesn't happen as much in todays game where the big man deliberately knocks the little guards down on their behinds just for going to the hoop to intimidate them.

We can all agree the pace is much MUCH more faster today which helps scoring go up. Also back then the mid range was a huge part of the game. Most shots were from the mid range and the best scorers shot the ball from mid range most of the time. Now alot of the shots are from the 3 or layup. So it's higher percentage shots from the paint or the 3 pt line. Players don't shoot those long range 2s like the Duncan, KG, Webber, Durk, Kobe etc.. did back then, they might as well take the 3 if you're going to shoot a long range shot instead. All in all, yes the game has evolved kinda.

I think the AI/Shaq part is greatly exaggerated. You act like if a guard drove to the hoop, a big man would be waiting there to obliterate him for simply driving to the hoop. This is one of those things that has being mythologized. Do you have any video examples of this? It wasn't as bad as you make it seem. Guards were still able to drive to the hoop without being scared of getting destroyed.

I agree. Back then too, there was no verstical rule so attacking players like Iverson and Kobe got the benefit of almost automatic FT's. Iverson was taking 9-10 FTs/game.
And I still remember Shaq getting a flagrant foul against him when he jump straight up to meet the 5-11 Travis Best in midair. The Pacers PG took a bad fall but it was clear Shaq jump straight up.
Maybe the Piston's bad boys, those guys got away with hard fouls though.

Exactly. The FTs back this up.

[jc23]

Its been going up for 10 years! it seems like every season we have a "historically great something team" that then becomes the mean a few years down the road.

they need to do more to balance things out.

[thelead]

legit shocking how effective the bulls full court press was in the 90s, really highlights the lack of ball-handling teams had back in the day:

Watch on YouTube

I mean yea the Knicks did that to themselves playing defensive line-ups, but still shocking.

No way this works against modern offenses.

Yeah so many more players who couldn’t even use their off hand effectively.

It’s funny watching the 92 finals. Jordan has a massive amount of dribble moves, can use both hands effectively etc. Meanwhile his star opponent Clyde Drexler almost looks like a 60s player, heavily favouring his right hand dribble all game.

Let's also be honest and acknowledge that players back then weren't allowed to carry the ball like they ALL do today. That makes a huge difference too... but yeah, Starks bringing the ball up the court against pressure wasn't the best the 90s could provide

[kodo]

In 20 years when 250-220 scores are normal, JJ will be complaining about how bad the league is and the new influencers will be talking about how these old players can't handle how skilled 2040 players are.

[FarBeyondDriven]

JJ is a buffoon. He got treated like crap and made fun of his whole career and he's been desperate ever since to gain some respect from his peers so he inflates today's players and the league. Only in a league with no defense and teams jacking up threes could a guy like JJ succeed so he has to talk it up to pump himself up as well.

Players are better shooters now. But they're worse at literally everything else. Scoring is higher because rules are allowed to be broken, defense isn't played and the pace of play is simply faster due to offensive rebounds now resetting clocks to 14 seconds. There's just more possessions.

[DC_Melo]

Old heads can't cope with the fact that today's players are better. The fact that the 3 pt line was there for decades, and they were too stubborn/dumb to use it, is also a source of embarrassment.

Shooting at the level of the best nba players is a very difficult skill to develop. That doesn’t just happen overnight. Training and coaching methods develop over time that’s why we saw a gradual adoption of the 3 pointer.

Exactly. Each decade, the number of players that can shoot above 35% from the arc goes up. Doesn’t make sense to shoot many 3’s from an efficiency standpoint in the 90’s when only a few dozen guys in the league could sustain that accuracy with volume.

The adoption of the 3 point shot aligns with the adaptation players made to develop that skill after the 3 point line was introduced.

The majority of players in the NBA today have the 3 point shot in their arsenal. If a 4 point line were introduced, it would be a few decades before we saw a majority of players acquire that skillset. Until then, coaches and teams would be selective about green lighting the 4 point shot (or “too stubborn/dumb” apparently), just like they were about the 3-ball in the past.

[Harry Garris]

Old heads can't cope with the fact that today's players are better. The fact that the 3 pt line was there for decades, and they were too stubborn/dumb to use it, is also a source of embarrassment.

Shooting at the level of the best nba players is a very difficult skill to develop. That doesn’t just happen overnight. Training and coaching methods develop over time that’s why we saw a gradual adoption of the 3 pointer.

Even still, it's crazy how long it took for players to cut out long 2's and replace them with 3's. It's not like the math is all that complicated.

We have the benefit of hindsight. People didn’t use to wear seatbelts while driving or wash their hands before performing surgery. It only becomes obvious once you recognize what you were doing wrong. You don’t know what you don’t know.

[KevinMcreynolds]

JJ is a buffoon. He got treated like crap and made fun of his whole career and he's been desperate ever since to gain some respect from his peers so he inflates today's players and the league. Only in a league with no defense and teams jacking up threes could a guy like JJ succeed so he has to talk it up to pump himself up as well.

Players are better shooters now. But they're worse at literally everything else. Scoring is higher because rules are allowed to be broken, defense isn't played and the pace of play is simply faster due to offensive rebounds now resetting clocks to 14 seconds. There's just more possessions.

JJ is a phony. Dude left BKN for NOP solely for money then he cried to Griffin when he wouldn't trade him where he wanted to go. Sorry pal, you choose somewhere you didn't want to play just so you can stack paper. It's your own doing. Then when his podcast first started the theme of every episode was how NBA players are all victims and execs and owners are scumbags.

[ScrantonBulls]

JJ is a buffoon. He got treated like crap and made fun of his whole career and he's been desperate ever since to gain some respect from his peers so he inflates today's players and the league. Only in a league with no defense and teams jacking up threes could a guy like JJ succeed so he has to talk it up to pump himself up as well.

Players are better shooters now. But they're worse at literally everything else. Scoring is higher because rules are allowed to be broken, defense isn't played and the pace of play is simply faster due to offensive rebounds now resetting clocks to 14 seconds. There's just more possessions.

I can't say I recall him getting treated like crap or made fun of his whole career, lol. He literally played majority in an era that still had a slow pace, good defense and with much fewer 3's than are being taken today. The guy averaged 15 or more points in 7 seasons. Why talk about him like this when you have no idea what you are talking about? Do some research before you trash a guy.

[Jaqua92]

Watch on YouTube

OG posted this in another thread. It's so good I thought it deserved a thread. Great discussion by two smart basketball guys. Some highlights:

- Scoring is up because players are so ridiculously skilled. They can all shoot threes, and many can shoot off dribbles, step back, etc.
- Defense is still important, but work how potent offenses are now, it isn't crucial to have a top 5 defense.
- JJ touches on how the "physicality of the 90s" is a myth. Watched 90s finals series in full, and they weren't that physical.
- The number of drives going to the hoop is UP, but free throws are at an all time LOW. This disproves the notion that ticky tacky fouls are always called now.

Just great stuff. We need more analysis like this from ex players and from people. We hear some much analysis like "the league ain't tough no more" and "everything is soft now". The skill of the league is at an all time how. Offense has simply passed up defense, and there's not much defenses can do to slow it down.

JJ is a great basketball mind and sounds really smart,
until he starts regurgitating his "90s players sucked" garbage, and then you remember this is the buffoon who said dinosaurs never existed.

Offense is what it is because the pace is up, the spacing is up, defensive 3 seconds, and it's impossible to play defense.

JJ wants to discredit the past.

As a person, it's easy to forget that he's a moron like most of these talking heads.

[DoItALL9]

Since players are more skilled shooters then they should bring back hand checking and get rid of 3 second calls.

[Jables]

Turns out the title of the video is a lie, this is not a "high-level hoops debate", it's typical agenda driven arguments we've heard before.