Peak Harden or Manu?

[rand]

Without knowing what other players you'll have available, who would you take to build your team around for the 2024 NBA season, peak James Harden or peak Manu Ginobili?

[AdagioPace]

Harden from 2017 to 2020 over 2005-07 Manu only because Harden is a bulldozer in godmode when isolating. That said I would rather watch 20 hours of Manu's highlights.....hombre vertical, el demonio de Bahia Blanca, El Narigon.

[MiamiBulls]

Using just a Single Season Peak, 2005 Ginobili over any Single Season version of James Harden. Harden's extreme heliocentric style of play has far too many diminishing returns at a Team Level, and just because Harden produced a lot of Points & created a massive amount of shots doesn't mean he impacted the game at a Team Level or altered the scoreboard greater than Ginobili.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think there's an argument to be made around Manu based on a couple of his playoff runs but realistically I think you are slotting him in as your team's #1 option and off anchor if he's being compared to peak Harden. So Manu probably has to up his mpg in the rs, not miss too many games and then be ready to produce in the playoffs. So it's a fairly hypothetical thing to consider. It's not as simple as 'I take peak playoff Manu over James' imo.

[Matt15]

I like Manu but Harden Peaked higher for sure.

[rk2023]

I like Manu, prefer not to speak regarding Harden.

That said , what are we doing here? Harden is surely the better player. In many different roles / teams, he’s adjusted very well and only gotten better as a facilitator when needing to scale down his scoring and has fit next to many great scoring players. When Harden was in a very similar context / role as Manu at his best (2005, imo) - he looked like an impact metric titan and was a hyper-efficient scorer. Iirc, the 12 Heat’s defense in the finals revolved on one of their key pillars as treating Harden like the head of the snake / keying in on him.

[One_and_Done]

As a #1 option? Harden.

[NBA4Lyfe]

Using just a Single Season Peak, 2005 Ginobili over any Single Season version of James Harden. Harden's extreme heliocentric style of play has far too many diminishing returns at a Team Level, and just because Harden produced a lot of Points & created a massive amount of shots doesn't mean he impacted the game at a Team Level or altered the scoreboard greater than Ginobili.

What diminishing returns does harden have on a team level. Every team he has been on he has still produced incredible team offensive ratings on lower usage

[kcktiny]

That said , what are we doing here? Harden is surely the better player.

Surely not.

Harden has always been a worse than average defender, sometimes poor. Ginobili was a great defensive SG.

From 03-04 to 10-11 (8 years) the Spurs were a dominant defensive team. No other team was even close. They averaged 57 wins a season, won 60+ games twice, had the second most playoff wins during that time, and two titles.

That team was an outstanding defensive team because of three key players - Tim Duncan, Bruce Bowen, and Ginobili - and Ginobili played the third most minutes on that team over the 8 years.

Harden fans - like Harden - forget that half the game is defense.

[Pelly24]

Man... Manu was nasty and I believe he could be a top 10-12 player today, if he could play 33 minutes per game. But people sleep on harden, and his playoff troubles are overstated. Like, if he had been healthy with KD, even just KD without Kyrie, they were going to easily win the championship. If it weren't for the 2017-2018 GSW, he probably woulda got one. Just kinda bad timing. Unstoppable first step and stepback combo. Elite, GOAT-level passer.

[Heej]

I love Manu and think this comparison is much closer than many realize, but let's be completely honest here. There's never been anything like 2018 Harden. That motherf***er briefly broke basketball for a good stretch. He had teams doing outlandish things. I promise you we'll never see a team use the doggy style defense the Jazz played on Harden in their series where he was literally so dominant jacking 3s and cooking people in iso they literally played him from behind and gave him an unimpeded lane to the rim praying that Rudy would do some DPOY s***

[NBA4Lyfe]

I love Manu and think this comparison is much closer than many realize, but let's be completely honest here. There's never been anything like 2018 Harden. That motherf***er briefly broke basketball for a good stretch. He had teams doing outlandish things. I promise you we'll never see a team use the doggy style defense the Jazz played on Harden in their series where he was literally so dominant jacking 3s and cooking people in iso they literally played him from behind and gave him an unimpeded lane to the rim praying that Rudy would do some DPOY s***

harden clears manu as a player.. its not close

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think of Manu as a solid all-nba level guy probably at his peak. I think Harden hit the MVP sphere though during his. The argument for Manu would have to be based on his ability to ramp up his minutes and maintain his impact, which I just can't get behind. Even if he did maintain his per-possession impact, it still wouldn't be an open and shut case.

2019 James Harden holds the highest single-season Inflation Adjusted per-possession scoring rate ever.


His scoring adjusted for 2024's environment:

37.8 pts per 75 (rTS% of 5.6%)

Yes, he has his PS scoring troubles, but he was a singular offensive force that can trump traditional 2-way superstar wings much of the time. Then you add in his truly elite playmaking, you are talking about conservatively a top 20 offensive player ever.

The fact that Harden was able to be so efficient and lead such an efficient offense is also commendable.

The top-7 full-season volume scorers in NBA history (inflation-adjusted) and their team's offensive ratings:

1. James Harden '19 (+5.1)
2. Kobe Bryant '06 (+2.2)
3. Michael Jordan '87 (+0.3)
4. Joel Embiid '23 (+3.4)
5. Russell Westbrook '17 (-0.5)
6. Wilt Chamberlain '62 (+0.9)
7. Tracy McGrady '03 (+1.6)

Harden lead the best offenses of the top scorers. I would argue until Embiid last year, he was the only one playing on a team that was seriously contending for a title at the time. Typically if you need your star to try and score this much, you do it because your team isn't competitive, and you have no choice. Harden's high-volume scoring showed to scale and really add to highly competitive environments.

The true value of Harden's scoring impact can be seen with something like the Adjusted Big Time Scoring Metric, where he ranks #2 all-time (1974-2023)

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[iggymcfrack]

‘05 Ginobili was the best player in the NBA. Harden was never that close. I’m taking Manu.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I love Manu and think this comparison is much closer than many realize, but let's be completely honest here. There's never been anything like 2018 Harden. That motherf***er briefly broke basketball for a good stretch. He had teams doing outlandish things. I promise you we'll never see a team use the doggy style defense the Jazz played on Harden in their series where he was literally so dominant jacking 3s and cooking people in iso they literally played him from behind and gave him an unimpeded lane to the rim praying that Rudy would do some DPOY s***

Ok Tbf this was stupid as hell idc if it somewhat worked that bball breakdown BS was dumb ass hell

[MyUniBroDavis]

‘05 Ginobili was the best player in the NBA. Harden was never that close. I’m taking Manu.

Lmao

**

Attack

[AdagioPace]

‘05 Ginobili was the best player in the NBA. Harden was never that close. I’m taking Manu.

let's not be kidding, if you slot peak Harden in those early-mid 00s Spurs (w/o Manu) you have Shaq-Kobe in Texas sauce.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

It's Harden but it's much closer than what people might think.
Harden is the system while Manu is making any system MUCH better and is a perfect fit everywhere.

[HeartBreakKid]

‘05 Ginobili was the best player in the NBA. Harden was never that close. I’m taking Manu.

let's not be kidding, if you slot peak Harden in those early-mid 00s Spurs (w/o Manu) you have Shaq-Kobe in Texas sauce.

If you slot Manu in there, don't you also have Shaq-kobe in Texas sauce? They were more successful than the Lakers.

[AdagioPace]

‘05 Ginobili was the best player in the NBA. Harden was never that close. I’m taking Manu.

let's not be kidding, if you slot peak Harden in those early-mid 00s Spurs (w/o Manu) you have Shaq-Kobe in Texas sauce.

If you slot Manu in there, don't you also have Shaq-kobe in Texas sauce? They were more successful than the Lakers.

well, of course Spurs won a fair amount of rings with Manu during that period, but I think that Harden would have tilted even more the balance in years like 2006. Spurs never had (in their entire franchise history) an offensive player as good as him.