Legler and JJ break down modern offenses, why scoring is up, etc.

[pillwenney]

What's crazier to me is how many people pine for the return of mid-range jumpers, like they're significantly different from 3s. A jump shot is a jump shot is a jump shot.

I'm honestly baffled at people who think its better basketball when offensive players are less skilled and miss more shots and defensive players just flagrantly foul guys that they can't guard to "intimidate" them or whatever nonsense.

LOL again, literally 27 out of the 30 highest rated NBA Finals games were from 1988 to 1998!

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-finals-the-games-with-the-highest-ratings-of-all-time/

Turns out people enjoyed having variety in styles of play with teams being able to impose their will on the defensive end without neutering them with a bunch of artificial rules to enhance offensively limited and soft players that can only shoot 3’s and drive open lanes!

Physicality created intense rivalries which have become virtually non-existent in today’s soft AAU buddy buddy “chuck till you drop” sanitized soccer mom friendly NBA.

This is why former players and older fans don’t respect this “beginner level” incarnation of the game and to tell you the truth players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Dream or Kareem would’ve probably lost interest quite rapidly playing in the present boring league without much defensive resistance!

You can't be seriously citing TV ratings comparisons to modern day as evidence of a lack of popularity and therefore viability.

I guess literally everything that's televised markedly worse than it was 30 years ago.

[DoctorX]

We just gonna pretend like these two guys don't work for ESPN, which has a vested interest in selling the league due to owning broadcast rights (and now a gambling app as well)?
Lol
No, we don't need more biased analysis like this. Any idiot could tell you shooting has improved, but it takes a special kind of idiot to pretend like rule changes and interpretations (and analytics and pace) haven't also played a significant role.
Scoring is way up from even just a few seasons ago. Has skill level really improved drastically in a few years?
Common sense says no, not really.
These guys are just taking a small part of the truth and selling it as the whole truth, because that's their job. And they're good at their job.

Agreed greed will always cause people to have biased views like in JJ and Legler's case with them working for ESPN and being paid shills for them. One thing I like to point out is if today's players are so much superior in talent compared to the past, then why not bring back the old defensive rules? If they are clearly that great, they should be fine playing against hand checking and not having a defensive 3 second call in the paint to deal with. That's how I know most of these people or full of **** since they are against bringing back the old rules due to fear scoring will go down drastically.

[DoctorX]

I'm honestly baffled at people who think its better basketball when offensive players are less skilled and miss more shots and defensive players just flagrantly foul guys that they can't guard to "intimidate" them or whatever nonsense.

LOL again, literally 27 out of the 30 highest rated NBA Finals games were from 1988 to 1998!

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-finals-the-games-with-the-highest-ratings-of-all-time/

Turns out people enjoyed having variety in styles of play with teams being able to impose their will on the defensive end without neutering them with a bunch of artificial rules to enhance offensively limited and soft players that can only shoot 3’s and drive open lanes!

Physicality created intense rivalries which have become virtually non-existent in today’s soft AAU buddy buddy “chuck till you drop” sanitized soccer mom friendly NBA.

This is why former players and older fans don’t respect this “beginner level” incarnation of the game and to tell you the truth players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Dream or Kareem would’ve probably lost interest quite rapidly playing in the present boring league without much defensive resistance!

You can't be seriously citing TV ratings comparisons to modern day as evidence of a lack of popularity and therefore viability.

I guess literally everything that's televised markedly worse than it was 30 years ago.

I would say the NBA is greatly less popular today than it was back then. The NFL is still producing high ratings today on TV where recently it was reported for 2023 that 97 out of the 100 highest rated shows for 2023 were NFL games. The NBA didn't even crack the top 100.

[ScrantonBulls]

We just gonna pretend like these two guys don't work for ESPN, which has a vested interest in selling the league due to owning broadcast rights (and now a gambling app as well)?
Lol
No, we don't need more biased analysis like this. Any idiot could tell you shooting has improved, but it takes a special kind of idiot to pretend like rule changes and interpretations (and analytics and pace) haven't also played a significant role.
Scoring is way up from even just a few seasons ago. Has skill level really improved drastically in a few years?
Common sense says no, not really.
These guys are just taking a small part of the truth and selling it as the whole truth, because that's their job. And they're good at their job.

Agreed greed will always cause people to have biased views like in JJ and Legler's case with them working for ESPN and being paid shills for them. One thing I like to point out is if today's players are so much superior in talent compared to the past, then why not bring back the old defensive rules? If they are clearly that great, they should be fine playing against hand checking and not having a defensive 3 second call in the paint to deal with. That's how I know most of these people or full of **** since they are against bringing back the old rules due to fear scoring will go down drastically.

You are aware of the old Illegal defense rule of the past, right?... Ya know, the one that restricted zone defense and made it much easier to score... You want them to bring that back? Why?

[ScrantonBulls]

LOL again, literally 27 out of the 30 highest rated NBA Finals games were from 1988 to 1998!

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-finals-the-games-with-the-highest-ratings-of-all-time/

Turns out people enjoyed having variety in styles of play with teams being able to impose their will on the defensive end without neutering them with a bunch of artificial rules to enhance offensively limited and soft players that can only shoot 3’s and drive open lanes!

Physicality created intense rivalries which have become virtually non-existent in today’s soft AAU buddy buddy “chuck till you drop” sanitized soccer mom friendly NBA.

This is why former players and older fans don’t respect this “beginner level” incarnation of the game and to tell you the truth players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Dream or Kareem would’ve probably lost interest quite rapidly playing in the present boring league without much defensive resistance!

You can't be seriously citing TV ratings comparisons to modern day as evidence of a lack of popularity and therefore viability.

I guess literally everything that's televised markedly worse than it was 30 years ago.

I would say the NBA is greatly less popular today than it was back then. The NFL is still producing high ratings today on TV where recently it was reported for 2023 that 97 out of the 100 highest rated shows for 2023 were NFL games. The NBA didn't even crack the top 100.

It bugs me when people talk out of their asses because they have such a nostalgia/connection to the past NBA. The NBA is bigger than ever and it isn't even close. It's a worldwide sport and arguably the 3rd most popular sport in the world. It has NEVER been as popular worldwide as it is now. When do think it was more popular?

[pillwenney]

LOL again, literally 27 out of the 30 highest rated NBA Finals games were from 1988 to 1998!

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-finals-the-games-with-the-highest-ratings-of-all-time/

Turns out people enjoyed having variety in styles of play with teams being able to impose their will on the defensive end without neutering them with a bunch of artificial rules to enhance offensively limited and soft players that can only shoot 3’s and drive open lanes!

Physicality created intense rivalries which have become virtually non-existent in today’s soft AAU buddy buddy “chuck till you drop” sanitized soccer mom friendly NBA.

This is why former players and older fans don’t respect this “beginner level” incarnation of the game and to tell you the truth players like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Dream or Kareem would’ve probably lost interest quite rapidly playing in the present boring league without much defensive resistance!

You can't be seriously citing TV ratings comparisons to modern day as evidence of a lack of popularity and therefore viability.

I guess literally everything that's televised markedly worse than it was 30 years ago.

I would say the NBA is greatly less popular today than it was back then. The NFL is still producing high ratings today on TV where recently it was reported for 2023 that 97 out of the 100 highest rated shows for 2023 were NFL games. The NBA didn't even crack the top 100.

One could make the argument because it's ultimately a totally nebulous thing that's hard to prove. What doesn't make any sense is comparing TV ratings as evidence. The NFL is the only thing--sports or otherwise--that still gets even comparable TV ratings to what it did decades ago. People by and large don't watch TV as much any more.

[Ruma85]

Shooting at the level of the best nba players is a very difficult skill to develop. That doesn’t just happen overnight. Training and coaching methods develop over time that’s why we saw a gradual adoption of the 3 pointer.

Even still, it's crazy how long it took for players to cut out long 2's and replace them with 3's. It's not like the math is all that complicated.

What's crazier to me is how many people pine for the return of mid-range jumpers, like they're significantly different from 3s. A jump shot is a jump shot is a jump shot.

Yes a jump shot is a jump shot, yet you see every year in the finals mid-range jumpers are taking more then at any point, the issue I have is just because your a half a meter or a meter from shooting a 3 doesn't mean you should, the offence could be even better if they took more mid range shots.

[Ruma85]

We just gonna pretend like these two guys don't work for ESPN, which has a vested interest in selling the league due to owning broadcast rights (and now a gambling app as well)?
Lol
No, we don't need more biased analysis like this. Any idiot could tell you shooting has improved, but it takes a special kind of idiot to pretend like rule changes and interpretations (and analytics and pace) haven't also played a significant role.
Scoring is way up from even just a few seasons ago. Has skill level really improved drastically in a few years?
Common sense says no, not really.
These guys are just taking a small part of the truth and selling it as the whole truth, because that's their job. And they're good at their job.

Agreed greed will always cause people to have biased views like in JJ and Legler's case with them working for ESPN and being paid shills for them. One thing I like to point out is if today's players are so much superior in talent compared to the past, then why not bring back the old defensive rules? If they are clearly that great, they should be fine playing against hand checking and not having a defensive 3 second call in the paint to deal with. That's how I know most of these people or full of **** since they are against bringing back the old rules due to fear scoring will go down drastically.

You are aware of the old Illegal defense rule of the past, right?... Ya know, the one that restricted zone defense and made it much easier to score... You want them to bring that back? Why?

He told you why.

[Sedale Threatt]

Even still, it's crazy how long it took for players to cut out long 2's and replace them with 3's. It's not like the math is all that complicated.

What's crazier to me is how many people pine for the return of mid-range jumpers, like they're significantly different from 3s. A jump shot is a jump shot is a jump shot.

Yes a jump shot is a jump shot, yet you see every year in the finals mid-range jumpers are taking more then at any point, the issue I have is just because your a half a meter or a meter from shooting a 3 doesn't mean you should, the offence could be even better if they took more mid range shots.

This is statistically not true. If you look at shot charts by foot, the most efficient shots (points per attempt) are obviously at the rim. Then as you move further out on the court, it steadily drops until you get back out to the 3-point line, where there's a massive spike. And that's why teams have tried to maximize those shots as much as possible. Over the course of a game and especially season, you're going to be significantly rewarded by taking shots at 24+ feet over those a few feet closer. It's a basic math.

[Ruma85]

What's crazier to me is how many people pine for the return of mid-range jumpers, like they're significantly different from 3s. A jump shot is a jump shot is a jump shot.

Yes a jump shot is a jump shot, yet you see every year in the finals mid-range jumpers are taking more then at any point, the issue I have is just because your a half a meter or a meter from shooting a 3 doesn't mean you should, the offence could be even better if they took more mid range shots.

This is statistically not true. If you look at shot charts by foot, the most efficient shots (points per attempt) are obviously at the rim. Then as you move further out on the court, it steadily drops until you get back out to the 3-point line, where there's a massive spike. And that's why teams have tried to maximize those shots as much as possible. Over the course of a game and especially season, you're going to be significantly rewarded by taking shots at 24+ feet over those a few feet closer. It's a basic math.

I know it's basic math, in the finals a lot of players get run off the 3 point line, and instead of taking the 2, they keep taking 3's, did you watch last year's final?

[Sedale Threatt]

Yes a jump shot is a jump shot, yet you see every year in the finals mid-range jumpers are taking more then at any point, the issue I have is just because your a half a meter or a meter from shooting a 3 doesn't mean you should, the offence could be even better if they took more mid range shots.

This is statistically not true. If you look at shot charts by foot, the most efficient shots (points per attempt) are obviously at the rim. Then as you move further out on the court, it steadily drops until you get back out to the 3-point line, where there's a massive spike. And that's why teams have tried to maximize those shots as much as possible. Over the course of a game and especially season, you're going to be significantly rewarded by taking shots at 24+ feet over those a few feet closer. It's a basic math.

I know it's basic math, in the finals a lot of players get run off the 3 point line, and instead of taking the 2, they keep taking 3's, did you watch last year's final?

I watch as many playoff games as I can every year. Defense obviously gets tighter when games matter more. And on any given possession, a wide-open 20-footer could very well be the best shot.

That has nothing to do with this statement:

The offense could be even better if they took more mid-range shots.

This is demonstrably, statistically false. There are reasons scoring has exploded in recent years, and the biggest is that teams figured out they have been dramatically underutilizing the 3-point line and adjusted accordingly.

Case in point:

Read on Twitter

The first shot chart is from the lowest-scoring/least-efficient era in NBA history. The second is from one of its highest.

[Ruma85]

This is statistically not true. If you look at shot charts by foot, the most efficient shots (points per attempt) are obviously at the rim. Then as you move further out on the court, it steadily drops until you get back out to the 3-point line, where there's a massive spike. And that's why teams have tried to maximize those shots as much as possible. Over the course of a game and especially season, you're going to be significantly rewarded by taking shots at 24+ feet over those a few feet closer. It's a basic math.

I know it's basic math, in the finals a lot of players get run off the 3 point line, and instead of taking the 2, they keep taking 3's, did you watch last year's final?

I watch as many playoff games as I can every year. Defense obviously gets tighter when games matter more. And on any given possession, a wide-open 20-footer could very well be the best shot.

That has nothing to do with this statement:

The offense could be even better if they took more mid-range shots.

This is demonstrably, statistically false. There are reasons scoring has exploded in recent years, and the biggest is that teams figured out they have been dramatically underutilizing the 3-point line and adjusted accordingly.

Case in point:

Read on Twitter

The first shot chart is from the lowest-scoring/least-efficient era in NBA history. The second is from one of its highest.

Efficiency is big thing for the last decade or so, correct, well if your jacking up 3's and missing isn't really the best shot?

[links135]

ehh idk. To me there is a lot more ticky tacky fouls nowadays compared to early 00s and before. They abolished the hand check which hurts the defense alot. Yea I agree players are more skilled today and they go to the hoop more. But back then a little guy like Allen Iverson goes to the rim and Shaq is there to put him on his back, that doesn't happen as much in todays game where the big man deliberately knocks the little guards down on their behinds just for going to the hoop to intimidate them.

We can all agree the pace is much MUCH more faster today which helps scoring go up. Also back then the mid range was a huge part of the game. Most shots were from the mid range and the best scorers shot the ball from mid range most of the time. Now alot of the shots are from the 3 or layup. So it's higher percentage shots from the paint or the 3 pt line. Players don't shoot those long range 2s like the Duncan, KG, Webber, Durk, Kobe etc.. did back then, they might as well take the 3 if you're going to shoot a long range shot instead. All in all, yes the game has evolved kinda.

Lol

97-98
FT leader: Utah - 35 FTA / 100 poss
PF Leader : Boston : 28 PF / 100 poss
23-34
FT Leader : Phili 27.6 / 100 poss
PF Leader :L Orlando 22/3 pf /100 poss

So there's significantly less free throws and fouls, but yeah. More ticky tacky fouls. OK.

[Sedale Threatt]

I know it's basic math, in the finals a lot of players get run off the 3 point line, and instead of taking the 2, they keep taking 3's, did you watch last year's final?

I watch as many playoff games as I can every year. Defense obviously gets tighter when games matter more. And on any given possession, a wide-open 20-footer could very well be the best shot.

That has nothing to do with this statement:

The offense could be even better if they took more mid-range shots.

This is demonstrably, statistically false. There are reasons scoring has exploded in recent years, and the biggest is that teams figured out they have been dramatically underutilizing the 3-point line and adjusted accordingly.

Case in point:

Read on Twitter

The first shot chart is from the lowest-scoring/least-efficient era in NBA history. The second is from one of its highest.

Efficiency is big thing for the last decade or so, correct, well if your jacking up 3's and missing isn't really the best shot?

No shot is the best if you missed it, which you'll never even know if you don't take it in the first place.

lol, what kind of point do you think you're making here?

[Asianiac_24]

They failed to mention the carry/travel rules being extremely lax now, which means players can create space much more easily. The step backs that Harden is famous for would be a travel in the 2000s. The stuff players can do nowadays to create space, the way they can gather, take 2-3 steps, has allowed guards to create space much easier than it was before. I agree that the shooting has improved, but I would argue that is a result of what is allowed on defense nowadays. In the post, the post defender can do pretty much whatever they want on the player (arm bars, holding, etc). On the perimeter, any kind of arm bar is a foul. This is a big reason why players are becoming more and more perimeter oriented IMO. Why would you sign a Al Jefferson type player when he can be mauled in the post?

LeBron James is the perfect example. Per 36 minutes, his top 3 seasons in points per 36 minutes are the following:

2021-2022
2022-2023
2018-2019

Just put that in perspective. LeBron James at age 37/38, is having his best scoring seasons he has ever had, even compared to his peak/prime years where he was in his 20s and early 30s.

[TheGeneral99]

This is the thing...when I go back and watch full 1980s and 1990s games I'm surprised by how less skilled the players are, how bad defenses were and also how many skinny ass players with virtually no muscle played.

They always show us the bad boy Pistons as the dirty team...but they were an anomaly, most NBA teams were pretty bad and not as dirty back then. Online you will just see montage clips of the 1980s and 1990s like these fights and dirty fouls were happening every game, but that wasn't really the case.

If I showed you a montage of dirty plays you would think the league is really dirty and fights were happening all the time:

Watch on YouTube

[John Murdoch]

Old heads can't cope with the fact that today's players are better. The fact that the 3 pt line was there for decades, and they were too stubborn/dumb to use it, is also a source of embarrassment.

Shooting at the level of the best nba players is a very difficult skill to develop. That doesn’t just happen overnight. Training and coaching methods develop over time that’s why we saw a gradual adoption of the 3 pointer.

Even still, it's crazy how long it took for players to cut out long 2's and replace them with 3's. It's not like the math is all that complicated.

If u were jacking 3's back then the coach would just bench you....it wasnt the players its was the coaches and front offices...like those old guys brad pitt was trying to explain his moneyball theory too ..very archaic thinking

[Quattro]

What's crazier to me is how many people pine for the return of mid-range jumpers, like they're significantly different from 3s. A jump shot is a jump shot is a jump shot.

I'm honestly baffled at people who think its better basketball when offensive players are less skilled and miss more shots and defensive players just flagrantly foul guys that they can't guard to "intimidate" them or whatever nonsense.

Funny. I'm baffled at people who think watching games with stupid scores like 146-145 on an increasingly regular basis is in any way entertaining. Granted my team sucks this year but tuning in for 5 minutes and seeing guys draining wide open threes or a regular layup line to the basket makes me change the channel.

You call it "less skilled offensive players" while I call it playing defense. To me (just my opinion) the NBA is less entertaining than its ever been and I've been watching since the late 80s

[Ruma85]

I watch as many playoff games as I can every year. Defense obviously gets tighter when games matter more. And on any given possession, a wide-open 20-footer could very well be the best shot.

That has nothing to do with this statement:

The offense could be even better if they took more mid-range shots.

This is demonstrably, statistically false. There are reasons scoring has exploded in recent years, and the biggest is that teams figured out they have been dramatically underutilizing the 3-point line and adjusted accordingly.

Case in point:

Read on Twitter

The first shot chart is from the lowest-scoring/least-efficient era in NBA history. The second is from one of its highest.

Efficiency is big thing for the last decade or so, correct, well if your jacking up 3's and missing isn't really the best shot?

No shot is the best if you missed it, which you'll never even know if you don't take it in the first place.

lol, what kind of point do you think you're making here?

That's not my point, my point is if you tone down the 3's for a better shot specifically in the mid range area, efficiency goes up, if you watch a game when team is down say 15 to 25 right, which I'm pretty sure you have do they not shoot 3's to try to catch up, the point is it's not always effective when coming back, for example I watched Wolves vs Raptors from October 25th 2023 Edwards was 4-7 from 3 which is fine, he took 27 shots & made 8, he took one mid range shot, which means 19 shots he took at rim. all I'm saying is if teams work with space from 3 to the rim and took more midrange the efficiency would go up.

[Sedale Threatt]

Efficiency is big thing for the last decade or so, correct, well if your jacking up 3's and missing isn't really the best shot?

No shot is the best if you missed it, which you'll never even know if you don't take it in the first place.

lol, what kind of point do you think you're making here?

My point is if you tone down the 3's for a better shot specifically in the mid range area, efficiency goes up

Again, this is false. Maybe not on a particular possession, or game, or even a stretch of games. But over the course of a season, it's been proven beyond any possible refutation that the correct strategy is to focus as much on the 3-point line at the expense of mid-range jumpers as possible. I don't know how many more ways I can spell this out and I'm not going to waste any more time trying.