Where would 1998 Jordan rank today?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

With modern 3 point shooter drawing the help defenders away from the Paint Jordan would just slice up defenses more than he did in his own time.

May have to play triangle and 2 which is not good for defending 3s. Keep a shot blocking big in the paint and a good small defender on Jordan and 3 guys to defend the 3 point line.

Jordan would be the best player today and Jokic, Doncic, Giannis and Embiid would not even be close to Jordan.

I love these kinds of posts that just focus on one part of the change the games has had over the last 25 years.

Apparently Jordan gets all the benefits of the new era (more spacing, less physicality on the perimeter, 3 second rule), but is magically shielded from all the downsides of it (defense is much more physically demanding with the movement of today's offenses, illegal zones not being a thing anymore, the pace of play being higher and harder on the legs of an older player).

Yes, if you make MJ play in 2024 when he has the ball on offense but turn back time to 1998 when he's playing defense or is off-ball, he'll be the best player in the NBA by a mile.

Jordan, best athlete then and now.

Biggest change in the league is improved 3 point shooting.

But Jordan must let the 3 point shooters shoot to benefit from the spacing created by 3 point shooters. Kerr playing with Jordan was for spacing so the concept is not new but that Bulls team was not a good 3 point shooting team for it’s own era even with the shortened 3.

That Triangle and 2 that I am thinking teams might use to slow Jordan down was not legal when Jordan played. The shot blocker camped under the rim would def be the drives of Jordan and any of Jordan’s teammates thinking about driving all the way to the rim but only having 3 guys defending the 3 point line might not work.

[tsherkin]

Jordan, best athlete then and now.

Nope.

Straight up nope, not in his 1998 rendition. That's insanity.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Jordan, best athlete then and now.

Nope.

Straight up nope, not in his 1998 rendition. That's insanity.

Oh 1998. I did not read well. I was thinking 1996. I always think 1996 or earlier than 1996 because while Jordan may have been at his skills peak in 1996 he was already past his athletic peak.


But in 1998 we are not talking about Wizards Jordan. 1998 Jordan may still be the best athlete then and now but he has fallen back into the pack leaders. He may still be the most athletic by a nose 1n 1998 but but it is not a no brainer like it was in 1996.

Ja Morant May top 1998 Jordan for athleticism but that’s about it.

I think 1998 Jordan was still a more valuable player than Jokic, Doncic, Gianis,Embiid but 1998 Jordan is not way ahead of them like 1988-1996 Jordan was.

1986 Jordan put on a show vs my home town Celtics while losing his first round playoffs but Jordan got more skilled by 1988. Jordan had the mind boggling athleticism of n 1986. 1988 Jordan was playing at a championship level but his teammates had to get better. Greatest was not good enough because it is a team game. Same goes for Doncic who might be 2nd best to Jokic if I ignore defense. If Kyrie stays young and Lively gets stil yet better Doncic might get a championship.

1998 Jordan was not clearly less valuable or less athletic than anybody in 1998 or anybody now but the gap between Jordan and the others had gone away by 1998.

[tsherkin]

Oh 1998. I did not read well. I was thinking 1996. I always think 1996 or earlier than 1996 because while Jordan may have been at his skills peak in 1996 he was already past his athletic peak.


But in 1998 we are not talking about Wizards Jordan. 1998 Jordan may still be the best athlete then and now but he has fallen back into the pack leaders. He may still be the most athletic by a nose 1n 1998 but but it is not a no brainer like it was in 1996.

Ja Morant May top 1998 Jordan for athleticism but that’s about it.

What? No, man. There's no 35 year-old out there who is a better athlete than some of these guys in their 20s. That's just not how the body works. Jordan was still pretty athletic in 98, no doubt, but his speed was noticeably different than his pre-retirement self, and that's just the reality of aging.

And in 98, you're still talking about a 25 year-old Grant Hill, Shaq, young AI, Michael Finley, Isiah Rider, even Ray Allen. Young KG and Webber. YMMV depending on how you evaluate the athleticism of the bigger guys and stuff, but there were faster guys in the league, dudes who had more evident bounce than Jordan, he was very clearly no longer the best athlete in the game.

You could see he didn't have the same acceleration. That's part of why he worked so hard on his post game after 95, and why you saw him getting so many elbow pull-ups. He didn't have the same ability to just burst through gaps and boom on people as he'd done earlier. He'd tailed off. He'd have nights or quarters where he could dial it up a little, but it definitely wasn't the same. He still had phenomenal body control, and if he found the space, he could still get high and then be creative mid-air, for sure. He had amazing scoop shots and what-not, but there were plenty of guys in the league by that point who had similar in-game vertical, so it was no longer a consequential separation. The body control and ability to make shots, of course, was a major difference, but he also wasn't getting there with the same speed that he used to manage. Like, dude was pulling up against Steve Smith because he mostly wasn't getting past him. Steve Smith at that time was athletic and taller, of course, but still. A few years earlier, he'd have left Smith eating his dust. But even with his verticality, you'd see him covering less ground, not getting up quite as high. He just knew how to tuck his legs to buy himself an extra fraction of a second and then that body control and those huge hands came through.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Oh 1998. I did not read well. I was thinking 1996. I always think 1996 or earlier than 1996 because while Jordan may have been at his skills peak in 1996 he was already past his athletic peak.


But in 1998 we are not talking about Wizards Jordan. 1998 Jordan may still be the best athlete then and now but he has fallen back into the pack leaders. He may still be the most athletic by a nose 1n 1998 but but it is not a no brainer like it was in 1996.

Ja Morant May top 1998 Jordan for athleticism but that’s about it.

What? No, man. There's no 35 year-old out there who is a better athlete than some of these guys in their 20s. That's just not how the body works. Jordan was still pretty athletic in 98, no doubt, but his speed was noticeably different than his pre-retirement self, and that's just the reality of aging.

And in 98, you're still talking about a 25 year-old Grant Hill, Shaq, young AI, Michael Finley, Isiah Rider, even Ray Allen. Young KG and Webber. YMMV depending on how you evaluate the athleticism of the bigger guys and stuff, but there were faster guys in the league, dudes who had more evident bounce than Jordan, he was very clearly no longer the best athlete in the game.

You could see he didn't have the same acceleration. That's part of why he worked so hard on his post game after 95, and why you saw him getting so many elbow pull-ups. He didn't have the same ability to just burst through gaps and boom on people as he'd done earlier. He'd tailed off. He'd have nights or quarters where he could dial it up a little, but it definitely wasn't the same. He still had phenomenal body control, and if he found the space, he could still get high and then be creative mid-air, for sure. He had amazing scoop shots and what-not, but there were plenty of guys in the league by that point who had similar in-game vertical, so it was no longer a consequential separation. The body control and ability to make shots, of course, was a major difference, but he also wasn't getting there with the same speed that he used to manage. Like, dude was pulling up against Steve Smith because he mostly wasn't getting past him. Steve Smith at that time was athletic and taller, of course, but still. A few years earlier, he'd have left Smith eating his dust. But even with his verticality, you'd see him covering less ground, not getting up quite as high. He just knew how to tuck his legs to buy himself an extra fraction of a second and then that body control and those huge hands came through.

Who besides Ja Morant do you have as a better athlete than 1998 Jordan from current NBA or 1998 NBA?

1998 had a bunch of good athletes who were not particularly good basketball players. Big fast guys who could jump but lacked basketball skills..

When arguing about athleticism I found people that include size as part of athleticism. For me Iverson is more athletic than Giannis because I tend to rank quickness and body control over size in my definition of athletic.

Countermoves as in the defender does X so the offensive player responds with Y I see as basketball skills not athleticism.

Curry’s perfect shooting touch on drives and 3s is yet another category related to a pool player’s type of athleticism.

Grant Hill may have been the best at Jordan style athleticism of the non Jordan people in 1998. Kendal Gill was impressive. Vince Carter was impressive. Vince may have been after 1998 and Kendal Gill before 1998. I don’t remember when Grant Hill’s first bad injury was.

Peak Grant Hill was up there with 1998 Jordan in athleticism but not clearly superior to Jordan when Jordan beat the Pacers in the conference Finals.

Now I have to check whether Jordan vs Pacersbis 1997 or 1998. I did not forget 1998 Jordan if that is Jordan vs Pacers year.

[tsherkin]

Who besides Ja Morant do you have as a better athlete than 1998 Jordan from current NBA or 1998 NBA?

Shai, Tatum, Giannis, Kawhi, Haliburton. Could make arguments for Tyrese Maxey and Jamal Murray. A bunch of guys, really. I'd be singing a different tune about 1st 3-peat Jordan, for sure, but not about 98 MJ.

1998 had a bunch of good athletes who were not particularly good basketball players. Big fast guys who could jump but lacked basketball skills..

Not salient to this conversation.

When arguing about athleticism I found people that include size as part of athleticism. For me Iverson is more athletic than Giannis because I tend to rank quickness and body control over size in my definition of athletic.

Moving a body that large quickly and with control is still a form of athleticism. Particularly while exhibiting any kind of real coordination.

Curry’s perfect shooting touch on drives and 3s is yet another category related to a pool player’s type of athleticism.

Shooting is explicitly a skill. There are coordination components to it, but that is very specifically a skill. Curry's still pretty athletic, for sure, but he was never a guy who was smoking dudes with his quickness or his verticality, he was always a guy who did it with skill as his lead foot, so to speak.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Who besides Ja Morant do you have as a better athlete than 1998 Jordan from current NBA or 1998 NBA?

Shai, Tatum, Giannis, Kawhi, Haliburton. Could make arguments for Tyrese Maxey and Jamal Murray. A bunch of guys, really. I'd be singing a different tune about 1st 3-peat Jordan, for sure, but not about 98 MJ.

1998 had a bunch of good athletes who were not particularly good basketball players. Big fast guys who could jump but lacked basketball skills..

Not salient to this conversation.

When arguing about athleticism I found people that include size as part of athleticism. For me Iverson is more athletic than Giannis because I tend to rank quickness and body control over size in my definition of athletic.

Moving a body that large quickly and with control is still a form of athleticism. Particularly while exhibiting any kind of real coordination.

Curry’s perfect shooting touch on drives and 3s is yet another category related to a pool player’s type of athleticism.

Shooting is explicitly a skill. There are coordination components to it, but that is very specifically a skill. Curry's still pretty athletic, for sure, but he was never a guy who was smoking dudes with his quickness or his verticality, he was always a guy who did it with skill as his lead foot, so to speak.

I keep missing seeing Halliburton and that is starting to irritate me. On the other hand Halliburton is the guy my Warriors should have drafted instead of Wiseman so maybe I don’t want to see Halliburton.

Most of the basketball I watched in the 1980s was Celtics vs whoever and conference finals and finals. After 1991 it was Warriors vs whoever conference finals and finals. Not really a well rounded way of watching basketball. What if my home team is a bad match up for a star.

By my way of interpreting athleticism where Iverson is more athletic than Giannis Tatum has not teacher 1998 Jordan’s level of athleticism.

Basketball reference says Jordan was 34 in 1998. 34 to 35 is a big athleticism drop off year.


Per 36 minute numbers in things like rebounds steals blocks and shooting percentage show a small but noticeable reguakar season drop off for Jordan between 1996 and 1998. But I was not watching much regular season Jordan. Looking at playoffs you don’t see the drop off.

1991 to 1996 per 36 stats in things like rebounds show a bigger drop off than 1996 to 1998.

If you judged LeBron by his age you would expect a bigger decline in athleticism than what actually happened.

Jordan started so high that a decline in athleticism just left Jordan tied with the best athletes rather than way ahead of the best athletes.

Tatum has one move where he drives fast to the side of backboard and extends himself long and hits the undefendable shot. Tatum does not do anything else as well. Tatum should be more like Moses Malone and do what he does best more and do other things that he is not as good at less.

I see Tatum as a faster Donyell Marshal more than as an athlete that can do many things extremely well and makes the right choices. A faster Donyell Marshal would be a great player but not somebody I would compare to Jordan in terms of athleticism.

In my opinion 34 year old Jordan was more athletic and a better player than peak Tatum and peak Grant Hill.

I am disqualified on Halliburton. With my Iverson was more athletic than Gianis way of looking at things the only player now or in 1998 that is more athletic than 34 year old Jordan is Ja Morant but 34 year old Jordan was bigger than Ja Morant, more skilled than Ja Morant and better than JA Morant.

Because of their size and skills not athleticism Jock Doncic and Gianis have a case for being better than 34 year old Jordan but if I give Jordan modern 3 point shooting teammates to get the help defenders out of the paint I am pretty sure than 34 year Jordan inserted into today’s NBA would be better than Jokic Doncic Tatum Embiid.

Embiid benefits from modern floor spacing. I think Peak Robinson and peak Hakim were better than Embiid but they were not better than Jordan.

I don’t know how good current Kawhi is. Peak Kawhi was close to 34 year old Jordan at athleticism and value. Peak Kawhi was not close to peak Jordan at athleticism and value but possibly more athletic than 34 year old Jordan.

I have not seen Kawhi this year. The last few years Kawhi looked like he had declined from his peak.

[tsherkin]

By my way of interpreting athleticism where Iverson is more athletic than Giannis Tatum has not teacher 1998 Jordan’s level of athleticism.

You're welcome to your interpretation, since it is somewhat subjective based on how you evaluate. But yeah, Jordan wasn't nearly as much a stunner in 98 by any measure, especially compared to today's guys.

Basketball reference says Jordan was 34 in 1998. 34 to 35 is a big athleticism drop off year.

Turned 35 in February during that season.

If you judged LeBron by his age you would expect a bigger decline in athleticism than what actually happened.

He's considerably slower and doesn't get anything like the elevation he used to. Performance and athleticism are not the same thing.

In my opinion 34 year old Jordan was more athletic and a better player than peak Tatum and peak Grant Hill.

Level of play isn't relevant to this conversation. But Hill was definitely more athletic than MJ in 98, by basically any definition.

Embiid benefits from modern floor spacing. I think Peak Robinson and peak Hakim were better than Embiid but they were not better than Jordan.

It's a question of athleticism, not of ability. Stop conflating the two and this will be simpler

[McBubbles]

With modern 3 point shooter drawing the help defenders away from the Paint Jordan would just slice up defenses more than he did in his own time.

May have to play triangle and 2 which is not good for defending 3s. Keep a shot blocking big in the paint and a good small defender on Jordan and 3 guys to defend the 3 point line.

Jordan would be the best player today and Jokic, Doncic, Giannis and Embiid would not even be close to Jordan.

I love these kinds of posts that just focus on one part of the change the games has had over the last 25 years.

Apparently Jordan gets all the benefits of the new era (more spacing, less physicality on the perimeter, 3 second rule), but is magically shielded from all the downsides of it (defense is much more physically demanding with the movement of today's offenses, illegal zones not being a thing anymore, the pace of play being higher and harder on the legs of an older player).

Yes, if you make MJ play in 2024 when he has the ball on offense but turn back time to 1998 when he's playing defense or is off-ball, he'll be the best player in the NBA by a mile.

Jordan, best athlete then and now.

Biggest change in the league is improved 3 point shooting.

But Jordan must let the 3 point shooters shoot to benefit from the spacing created by 3 point shooters. Kerr playing with Jordan was for spacing so the concept is not new but that Bulls team was not a good 3 point shooting team for it’s own era even with the shortened 3.

That Triangle and 2 that I am thinking teams might use to slow Jordan down was not legal when Jordan played. The shot blocker camped under the rim would def be the drives of Jordan and any of Jordan’s teammates thinking about driving all the way to the rim but only having 3 guys defending the 3 point line might not work.

Size is objectively a component of athleticism. A 7'0 300lbs man being equally as fast and jumping equally as high as a 5'0 150lbs man doesn't make them equals.

[Gregoire]

Top 3 in the league with Jokic/Giannis but I wouldn't take anyone over him in the playoffs.

The 1998 NBA had a league average TS% pf 52.4 and a pace of 90.3.
The 2023 NBA had a league average TS% of 58.1 and a pace of 99.1.

1998 Jordan averaged 32.4/5.1/3.5 on 54.5 %TS (+2.1 rTS) with 2.1 turnovers per game in the playoffs. Today with the same rTS the scoring numbers jump up to 35.8 ppg on 60.2 %TS (+2.1 rTS). With the higher pace the other stats including FGA would probably go up too so overall a 36/6/4 average is very probable. And he was still an elite defender for a guard.

Agree. Top-3 after Giannis and Joker in RS. Best in the PO.

[falcolombardi]

98 jordan would probably be a worse version of current shai in this league, likely outside top 5 after jokic, giannis, luka shai and maybe (playoffs pending) embiid. Roughly on par with current lebron or davis i think. I think 5th is as high as it can be justified

I honestly think anyone calling 98 jordan the best player today is buying the myths of jordan too hard

that year was so weak at the top with old stars and young pre prime ones that he kinda sneaked as #1 by default