Deni Avdija - Part II

[dckingsfan]

Deni is clearly improving but oh so slowly (at least that is what it feels like).

But if he continues to improve at this rate - he is still going to be a very nice piece especially if you consider his contract.

Comparing this year to last year I wouldn't say it is slow improvement. More like he was fairly stagnant his first 3 seasons and now all of a sudden the light appears to have come on. Beal was like that in year 5.

It's like he has suddenly realized that he is a big, strong guy and he can use that to his advantage on both ends, not just on defense.

First, he was my pick (over Haliburton sadly). So, I might have a bit of confirmation bias going on...

Yes, that is one place where he has made a nice improvement.

Having said that - I didn't think he was a good defender year 1. But then he was.

Years 1-3, not much of a 3-point shooter - now he is adequate.

He is improving his A/TO ratio - but it has been slow. For Deni, I think he needs to get to a 2:1 ratio to be really effective - I think he will slowly get there.

I liked that he used to block more shots. But he isn't getting challenged that way as much. He is slowly increasing the steals he gets per game but I am not seeing the uptick in the defensive rebounding to go with it - but that could also have to do with our pathetic defense.

Seems closer to slow but sure than big jumps?

[Eyalley-oop]

The post you quoted was talking about his competition in Europe.

How is that part NOT about Deni? seriously:

Things that Deni has room to do in Europe get smothered up here. Especially down low. Deni is solidly athletic in Euroleague play, one of the quicker face-up bigs with the ball. In the NBA he doesn't have the same advantage.

I didn't want to start searching the forum, but here's another one:

what he does in Euro play suddenly did not work. Players are longer faster and more athletic. He can't blow past them. Fake them out. Outjump them.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2018673&p=103492153&hilit=He+can%27t+blow+past+them.+Fake+them+out.+Outjump+them#p103492153

And you keep ignoring it but I'll say it a 3rd time, "do something with the ball when you get it" is not a realistic or very efficient development plan for a very young player, and it didn't really worked for 3 seasons, he needed more than that, that's all we "foreign fans" were saying, and the reason why he's improved now also not only depends on it either.

[tontoz]

Once again there is no quote saying Deni is unathletic and slow, and certainly nothing about him being weak. That is just something you made up. Saying he can't just blow past guys in the NBA isn't saying he is slow.

Every quote you post is talking about his competition in Europe which doesn't matter. He is in the NBA.

I didn't watch him in Europe and don't care what he did there. Saying he has to change his game in the NBA isn't exactly a revelation. Of course players are more athletic in the NBA so he had to adjust. Everyone has to adjust their games when they get to the NBA.

Deni was playing the same position as Rui in the same offense but Rui never had a problem getting shots up. That is because he was aggressive and Deni wasn't . You have just been looking to make excuses for him.

[tontoz]

Per 36 Deni is averaging 3.5 more pts, 1.4 more assists with a TS 5% higher relative to last season.

[Eyalley-oop]

Once again there is no quote saying Deni is unathletic and slow, and certainly nothing about him being weak. That is just something you made up. Saying he can't just blow past guys in the NBA isn't saying he is slow.

Every quote you post is talking about his competition in Europe which doesn't matter. He is in the NBA.

Do you even know what you're arguing about? what I said is that the claims here was that he's slow compared to NBA players, you're the one who makes things up, I never said the claims were that he's just "slow", slow is a relative term, I clearly said the claims were he's slow compared to NBA players and the quotes I gave says exactly that, this is what I wrote, read it again:

the "local fans" claimed his problem is that he's just too slow, too weak and not athletic enough to do what he did in Europe against NBA players, which I hope we all agree today is a complete nonsense.

Deni was playing the same position as Rui in the same offense but Rui never had a problem getting shots up. That is because he was aggressive and Deni wasn't . You have just been looking to make excuses for him.

And where is Rui now with his aggressiveness? did the Wizards system succeeded in making him a key future player in the team or not? You're the one who's making excuses for the coaching staff, I'll say for the 4th time, saying "do something with the ball" is not a real offensive plan or a development plan, it's just one aspect of many that can influence a player's performance, if you want to pat yourself on the back for stating the obvious, that he needed to be more aggressive then go ahead, just don't use me as a scapegoat while you do that, I can show you quotes from me and other Israelis from the same time where we've said he needs to be more aggressive as well, you make it sound like you claimed he needs to be more aggressive while the foreign fans didn't, that's not what happened, every foreign fan here agreed he needs to be more aggressive, you didn't counter anything by saying that.

[tontoz]

The words "slow, unathletic, and weak" do not appear in any of the posts you quoted. Looks like you have a reading comprehension problem.

I am glad Rui is gone. I didn't want to resign him but he did actually try to do something with the ball when he got it, unlike Deni. He just wasn't that good .

[doclinkin]

Ha! Way to dig up a dead topic so you can try to pick a fight about it. By way of context this was the conversation:

tontoz wrote:
The "situation" is just him not being aggressive.

The situation is him having an entire country watching and analyzing each and every movement or breath he takes, after each game the Israeli media is filled with articles and videos covering and analyzing all of the actions he took during the last game, those misses under the rim when he's wide open is a clear indication of the pressure he's feeling on his shoulders, combine it with the fact that he doesn't get too many touches of the ball on offense any way and you'll get someone that for him every time he gets the ball in a scoring situation he feels like his entire career depends on him making that shot and he become nervous and afraid to make mistakes, which ironically that eventually what leads him to make mistakes and silly misses, in the summer on the national team he didn't make that kind of mistakes, and I assume that's because he doesn't feel on the NT that every time he touches the ball is a rare event.

No it's because the Eurobasket teams had one, maybe 2 NBA players on their rosters. The calibre of athleticism is different. They are more physical in Europe with hacking and bumping on defense, but in the NBA players are simply bigger, faster, more athletic. Things that Deni has room to do in Europe get smothered up here. Especially down low. Deni is solidly athletic in Euroleague play, one of the quicker face-up bigs with the ball. In the NBA he doesn't have the same advantage. And he won't unless he gets an outside shot that forces players to try to guard him up close. Right now players don't really have to guard him: he's not gonna shoot when he gets the ball.

Thing is he is doing fine. Really really well. Developing at a good rate, the team values him. I see two Israeli posters complaining that he is under so much pressure, and then demanding that he get more touches and more pressure. Why? He's playing well, better team ball than most other players, and having a good effect. I'd suggest you be a little more patient. He's doing solid work. Kid is an instant veteran on the defensive end, which is the side of the ball that young players struggle with most. PLUS in the past year the league changed emphasis on certain rules, now allowing defenders to play more physical. Deni is taking full advantage of the change.

There is nothing wrong with Deni's development. He is making the right plays. When he has a clear lane he attacks, when the lane closes he swings it to other players. When he has an open shot outside, he takes it. That is just good team ball. Currently, the player who is shooting too much relative to their efficiency, is Porzingis. Deni is not. He's not scoring well from 2pt range, but he is not forcing it either.

He will add more to his game as he develops comfort out there. Relax Israel, your boy is damn good. Developing well. Except phenoms like Doncic and Nowitzki, Euroleague players tend not to step right onto the court in the NBA and dominate. But Deni is on track to be a core player on a winning team. If it takes him a minute to find an offensive game, that is okay ,so long as he is working on his game and getting minutes. Deni is one of what, 12-13? Euro players who start for their team. And of those players he is the youngest.

Chill out. Let him play. He's fine

Maybe your argument is somehow that he is now not distracted by the Israeli media picking on him because of war and strife and bigger things on their minds. Seems to me my take on his development is proving itself true.

[Eyalley-oop]

The words "slow, unathletic, and weak" do not appear in any of the posts you quoted. Looks like you have a reading comprehension problem.

You're the one with the comprehension problem if you don't understand on your own that claiming that NBA players are bigger, longer, faster and more athletic means a claim that Deni is smaller, shorter, slower and less athletic.

I am glad Rui is gone. I didn't want to resign him but he did actually try to do something with the ball when he got it, unlike Deni

And again, I never claimed anything to contradict that, Deni is Deni, Rui is Rui, both has advantages and disadvantages, Deni wasn't aggressive on offense while Rui was, ok, Rui wasn't aggressive on defense while Deni was, the only claim I've made is that the Wizards don't know how to help them improve their disadvantages, with the right system Deni could have played like he's playing now 2 seasons ago, he didn't because the Wizards system is not good with developing players, and Rui's example only emphasis that, he didn't had too much progress with his disadvantages either.

[tontoz]

If you find any post where someone uses the words "slow, unathletic and weak" to describe Deni be sure and let me know. I won't hold my breath.

Every player has to adjust their games to deal with the athleticism NBA defenders. The athleticism in the NBA is greater than Europe, or college, or the g league and moves that worked previously might have to be altered or abandoned.

[Eyalley-oop]

Ha! Way to dig up a dead topic so you can try to pick a fight about it.

Since I wrote twice that I don't want to dig up old threads or open up old arguments then maybe give me some slack and don't accuse me of trying to pick up a fight? tontoz raised that old claims and I had to provide a quote, no need to get angry, if you'll check you'll see that I even intentionally removed your name from the quotes exactly to avoid an argument with you...

Maybe your argument is somehow that he is now not distracted by the Israeli media picking on him because of war and strife and bigger things on their minds.

We are at war, people are dying here on a daily basis, if that's what you use for sarcastic purposes in a basketball forum then it says more about you then me.

[Eyalley-oop]

If you find any post where someone uses the words "slow, unathletic and weak" to describe Deni be sure and let me know. I won't hold my breath.

Why would I search for one if I never claimed someone said it? I've said people claimed he's slow, unathletic and weak compared to NBA players, and I've proved it, now you're just grasping at straws and nitpick about the words because you can't admit you were wrong and that these claims were really raised here.

Every player has to adjust their games to deal with the athleticism NBA defenders. The athleticism in the NBA is greater than Europe, or college, or the g league and moves that worked previously might have to be altered or abandoned.

And again, I never claimed anything else, that has nothing to do with what I've said about the Wizards system and the development of young players.

[tontoz]

If you find any post where someone uses the words "slow, unathletic and weak" to describe Deni be sure and let me know. I won't hold my breath.

Why would I search for one if I never claimed someone said it? I've said people claimed he's slow, unathletic and weak compared to NBA players, and I've proved it, now you're just grasping at straws and nitpick about the words because you can't admit you were wrong and that these claims were really raised here.

Every player has to adjust their games to deal with the athleticism NBA defenders. The athleticism in the NBA is greater than Europe, or college, or the g league and moves that worked previously might have to be altered or abandoned.

And again, I never claimed anything else, that has nothing to do with what I've said about the Wizards system and the development of young players.

And again they said nothing off the sort.

What they actually said was that Deni doesn't have the same athletic advantage in the NBA that he had in europe, which is true . They said he has to adjust to more athletic defenders, which is true.

The posts you quoted didn't say that he is " slow, unathletic and weak" relative to NBA players. That is nonsense.

I strongly recommend Hooked on Phonics to improve your reading comprehension.

[Eyalley-oop]

The posts you quoted didn't say that he is " slow, unathletic and weak" relative to NBA players. That is nonsense.

"Players(in the NBA) are longer faster and more athletic, He can't blow past them. Fake them out. Outjump them", how is that not saying he's shorter, slower and less athletic relative to NBA players? if he's not slower or less athletic why can't he blow past them or outjump them? again, you're grasping at straws, the meaning of what I wrote is there.

[tontoz]

The posts you quoted didn't say that he is " slow, unathletic and weak" relative to NBA players. That is nonsense.

"Players(in the NBA) are longer faster and more athletic, He can't blow past them. Fake them out. Outjump them", how is that not saying he's shorter, slower and less athletic relative to NBA players? if he's not slower or less athletic why can't he blow past them or outjump them? again, you're grasping at straws, the meaning of what I wrote is there.

You really aren't very bright.

Saying Deni is slow relative to NBA players means that most players are faster than him. Nobody said that

Saying he that is slower relative to nba players than he was in Europe is something else entirely. That is true of literally every player going from Europe to the NBA.

If Russell Westbrook started out in Europe then he would be slower, relative to NBA players, than he was in Europe. He would still be faster than most but his advantage wouldn't be as big.

I can't believe I have to explain this.

[doclinkin]

Maybe your argument is somehow that he is now not distracted by the Israeli media picking on him because of war and strife and bigger things on their minds.

We are at war, people are dying here on a daily basis, if that's what you use for sarcastic purposes in a basketball forum then it says more about you then me.

I actually think some part of it may be true. My impression was Deni entered the season with a seriousness of purpose and a focus that seemed to coincide with an understanding that there are bigger things in the world than him worrying about what people think of him. Call it Maturity. Life and trauma and struggle will grow you up fast. But Deni wasn't going to be the youngest guy on the team forever. Some part of why things 'click' for NBA players is that they get out of their own way and begin to maximize their skills instead of worrying about the little things. When there are real and serious and big things to worry about you don't get stuck in the cycle of 'me, me, me'. Reminds me of Paul Pierce whose maturity and game improved when he was nearly stabbed to death in a nightclub. Life.

But to my point in that quoted post. Likewise his fans should give him space. He was good then, for a young player, developing well and has gotten better. And it coincided with the improvement of his outside shot, which gives him more room to attack lanes since opponents can't simply leave him alone and pack the paint. Since he has improved and taken significant steps forward it is tough to make the argument that whatever the team did hindered his development. He put in the work and got better in the areas he was deficient, areas that fans complained about, and in ways that he was challenged to do in exit interviews. He did the work.

That said, he's no game changing first option player. He's taking more shots, with better confidence, and we're still losing a ton of games. He can't take over in the NBA the way he did in Israel's run in Euroqualifier play. He's one of my favorite players on the squad, and it's a losing squad. We need top talent around him. He's a good team player, and needs a good team in order to succeed. He's not the guy who is going to dominate at this level and carry a team to wins by his will alone. I'd love it if he develops into a 1A scoring star. So far he's developing as I expected, and I don't see that role as his most likely outcome at this level.

[Eyalley-oop]

You really aren't very bright.

I'm not the one who use insults instead or arguments.

[Runner300]

... you can't narrow down the reasons for how a player performs to just "do something with the ball when you get it", that's not how it works...

Unfortunately, as I see it, that's exactly how it works in the NBA.

[Eyalley-oop]

... you can't narrow down the reasons for how a player performs to just "do something with the ball when you get it", that's not how it works...

Unfortunately, as I see it, that's exactly how it works in the NBA.

Well, yea, I guess so, and that's indeed unfortunate.

[Pistol King]

As someone who followed Deni prior to when he came to the NBA, I'm actually surprised (in a positive way) with his athleticism and quickness. If you told me he would look like that, physically and athleticism wise, prior to the draft, I'd take this scenario with full happiness. I feel that when he tries, he gets to good scoring positions at a good rate.

On the other hand, what surprised me in a bad way (and still annoys me) is how passive he was throughout the first three years, and is still sometimes this season (against the Pacers he looked more tentative, for example). This is something I didn't expect. I thought he would understand that in the NBA you need to grow through mistakes, and the more you try, the faster you grow. Unfortunately he chose the opposite approach: "the less you try, the less you make mistakes". Ironically it forced him not only to make mistakes but to be stuck instead of growing as a player.

In some way what I see off him this season is what I've expected to see off him on his rookie year. The level of aggressiveness is much better, but still not enough, and I think there is a lot of room for improvement in this area for him.

I don't think WUJ is a good development coach, I don't think Scott Brooks was a good development coach, sadly he suffered (as the other youngsters) from two really bad coaches, development wise, which didn't help his progress rate, but it doesn't mean Deni himself did everything on his power to help himself.

In short: I'd like him to average 14 shots a game instead of 9 (with the current efficiency), I'd like him to stop showing defenders he's willing to pass and rather look always to attack the basket first and then just as a plan b to create a pass, this would make his passes less predictable. As tontoz said I'd like him to dunk more (better be with two hands, he certainly can) when he's in positions close to the basked instead of these soft -easy to block- shots, and I'd like him to keep working on a 1 v 1 counter move (emphasis on the left), with some mid range glimpses, until he gains a reliable one. He can get there, but he must force himself to try again and again and break this mental wall. What I appreciate about Coulibaly is that he tries stuff he is not particularly good at, but at least he trying. This is the only way for young players to grow and improve. But hurry before you become a 27 years old and then you get in to the Kuzma territory

[AFM]

Wizraeli, are you also Wizraeli Fandom--the guy who's always in the Locked On Wizards' comments section?