NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread)

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Who is leading the race for MVP? (players listed in alphabetical order)

Giannis Antetokounmpo
35
12%
Luka Doncic
24
8%
Anthony Edwards
2
1%
Joel Embiid
45
16%
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
50
18%
Tyrese Haliburton
0
No votes
Nikola Jokic
98
35%
Kawhi Leonard
6
2%
Jayson Tatum
13
5%
Other (Durant, Booker, Curry, Brunson, Sabonis, Fox, LeBron, Etc.)
10
4%
 
Total votes: 283

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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#121 » by hardenASG13 » Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:14 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
Decipher wrote:Embiid cops a lot of flak for his playing style but there’s no denying his importance to the Sixers as they’re barely a playin team without him


Point differential when their star sits
Philly without Embiid: +2.6
Mavericks w/o Luka: +1.0
Bucks without Giannis: -0.3
Thunder without SGA: -2.7
Nuggets without Jokic: -8.4


So is he ducking games to boost his stats and win MVP like many are arguing, while also knowing missing games will take him out of the MVP running? Because that makes no sense. The stats you post clearly reflect garbage time for Philly, as they have lost 7 of 9 without him and don’t have a positive point differential at all for that sample. It’d be impossible to have one and lose 7 of 9 games.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#122 » by maxpower8888 » Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:29 pm

The-Power wrote:
maxpower8888 wrote:As of Jan 10 my top 5 for MVP are:

1. Embiid
2. Jokic
3. Shai
4. Giannis
5. Luka

Jokic is starting to close the gap against Embiid, and they're facing each other in a few days which will be a very interesting matchup. Giannis and Luka are starting to lag behind the rest of the pack.

Embiid has missed too many games (9) in comparison to his competition (SGA 0, Jokic 1) to truly be the most valuable player in the league at this point. To have Embiid ahead right now, you'd have to basically discard minutes and games played and only focus on what he has done when he played. But that certainly doesn't give you an idea of the overall value a player has added to his team.


He's still eligible so I don't count that. I'm also taking into account that they're 2-7 in the games he didn't play.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#123 » by The-Power » Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:43 pm

maxpower8888 wrote:
The-Power wrote:
maxpower8888 wrote:As of Jan 10 my top 5 for MVP are:

1. Embiid
2. Jokic
3. Shai
4. Giannis
5. Luka

Jokic is starting to close the gap against Embiid, and they're facing each other in a few days which will be a very interesting matchup. Giannis and Luka are starting to lag behind the rest of the pack.

Embiid has missed too many games (9) in comparison to his competition (SGA 0, Jokic 1) to truly be the most valuable player in the league at this point. To have Embiid ahead right now, you'd have to basically discard minutes and games played and only focus on what he has done when he played. But that certainly doesn't give you an idea of the overall value a player has added to his team.


He's still eligible so I don't count that. I'm also taking into account that they're 2-7 in the games he didn't play.

So how do you define MVP? And why is the most valuable player not the player who brought the most cumulative value to his team?

Also, it sounds like you're not only not holding missed time against Embiid but actually reward him for it by pointing out the record without him (a luxury other MVP candidates do not have because they don't miss nearly as many games). That essentially punishes players for playing, which is absurd in an MVP conversation.

When it comes to record, the fact is that the 76ers have a worse one than OKC and DEN in no small part because their star players bring value to their teams on a lot more nights. That's certainly not something that props up Embiid's candidacy. Every game that Embiid misses he provides zero (or, when factoring in roster construction and cap usage, effectively negative) impact for his team.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#124 » by maxpower8888 » Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:48 pm

The-Power wrote:
maxpower8888 wrote:
The-Power wrote:Embiid has missed too many games (9) in comparison to his competition (SGA 0, Jokic 1) to truly be the most valuable player in the league at this point. To have Embiid ahead right now, you'd have to basically discard minutes and games played and only focus on what he has done when he played. But that certainly doesn't give you an idea of the overall value a player has added to his team.


He's still eligible so I don't count that. I'm also taking into account that they're 2-7 in the games he didn't play.

So how do you define MVP? And why is the most valuable player not the player who brought the most cumulative value to his team?

Also, it sounds like you're not only not holding missed time against Embiid but actually reward him for it by pointing out the record without him (a luxury other MVP candidates do not have because they don't miss nearly as many games). That essentially punishes players for playing, which is absurd in an MVP conversation.

When it comes to record, the fact is that the 76ers have a worse one than OKC and DEN in no small part because their star players bring value to their teams on a lot more nights. That's certainly not something that props up Embiid's candidacy. Every game that Embiid misses he provides zero (or, when factoring in roster construction and cap usage, effectively negative) impact for his team.


At the end of the season if he's still eligible for the award then I'll take a look at games played if the race is that close to look at those kinds of tie-breakers. But until then I'm not going to hold it against him.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#125 » by Mavrelous » Thu Jan 11, 2024 2:03 pm

It's SGA now, best record among all candidates, great stats, exceeded expectations massively.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#126 » by The-Power » Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:00 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Decipher wrote:Embiid cops a lot of flak for his playing style but there’s no denying his importance to the Sixers as they’re barely a playin team without him


Point differential when their star sits
Philly without Embiid: +2.6
Mavericks w/o Luka: +1.0
Bucks without Giannis: -0.3
Thunder without SGA: -2.7
Nuggets without Jokic: -8.4


So is he ducking games to boost his stats and win MVP like many are arguing, while also knowing missing games will take him out of the MVP running? Because that makes no sense. The stats you post clearly reflect garbage time for Philly, as they have lost 7 of 9 without him and don’t have a positive point differential at all for that sample. It’d be impossible to have one and lose 7 of 9 games.

Mostly, they reflect regular minutes with Embiid on the bench. Obviously if you take out the superstar entirely for the game, the point differential is going to be worse because inferior players play more minutes than during the normal rotation patterns.

What we can infer so far is that the 76ers handle the minutes with Embiid on the bench pretty well, but they do not handle missing Embiid for entire games very well (with the caveat that it's still a rather small sample and the schedule has been comparatively difficult). How well other teams handle missing their star player for entire games this season is something we don't really know, and hence cannot compare, because they haven't missed significant time unlike Embiid.

I also don't subscribe to the idea that Embiid is ‘ducking games’, that is, deciding to sit against difficult match-ups and suit up against easier match-ups. That doesn't make sense to me, especially not when it comes to the most recent stretch. That being said, that does not mean that we shouldn't be aware that Embiid has been disproportionately missing tough games when looking at his performances compared to other candidates as well as the 76ers team performance without him.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#127 » by The Explorer » Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:21 pm

I'm not following this race nor the teams involved closely but why is Tatum not even top 5 for most people? Best player on the best team usually gets more love than this.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#128 » by Jadoogar » Thu Jan 11, 2024 4:41 pm

The Explorer wrote:I'm not following this race nor the teams involved closely but why is Tatum not even top 5 for most people? Best player on the best team usually gets more love than this.


His team is absolutely loaded and his numbers aren't as good as the other guys. Simple as that.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#129 » by Jadoogar » Thu Jan 11, 2024 4:42 pm

Embiid has already missed 9 game games, i think he's going to miss out on the games played requirement.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#130 » by Woodsanity » Thu Jan 11, 2024 4:51 pm

Mavrelous wrote:It's SGA now, best record among all candidates, great stats, exceeded expectations massively.

Yea I would put SGA first now too since the Nuggets have a worse record.

For me he did not exceed expectations massively though, he is better than last year but not by a crazy margin or anything. We already knew he was mvp caliber last year, his team record just was not there yet.

Chet has been a HUGE difference maker.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#131 » by hardenASG13 » Thu Jan 11, 2024 5:10 pm

The Explorer wrote:I'm not following this race nor the teams involved closely but why is Tatum not even top 5 for most people? Best player on the best team usually gets more love than this.


For sure. It could be similar to the KD/Curry situation in Golden state where they took themselves out of the running. Bostons starting 5 is just ridiculously good.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#132 » by scrabbarista » Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:36 pm

Interesting that per bbref's MVP Tracker, the top four are probably more evenly balanced today than at any point this season so far:

Jokic 29%
Embiid 28%
SGA 17%
Giannis 11%
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#133 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:41 pm

Wolfgang630 wrote:Embiid and the 76ers need to prioritize the playoffs. You had years of failing. You had years of the process and all you’ve shown for it is years of second round exits. At a point you need to focus on moving ahead in the playoffs and Embiid is the best player. If anyone leads you to the championship is him, so you have to take care of his health now.


Agreed. Embiid needs to give up on that Cal Ripken iron man streak that has defined him all through his NBA career.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#134 » by Wolfgang630 » Thu Jan 11, 2024 10:04 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=46&t=XO0PgrZjS-uU8MmGKL8grQ

Game 10 he’s missing. Yeah that’s basically it for him. I think the Sixers are prioritizing his health now
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#135 » by Young gun 6 » Thu Jan 11, 2024 10:35 pm

Going to be down to Jokic and SGA.

Embiid can only miss a few more games to have a chance unless Jokic and SGA play < 70 games too.

You won’t win mvp playing 65-68 games even if eligible if other guys are playing 75+ who are having amazing seasons with top 3 records too.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#136 » by Mavrelous » Thu Jan 11, 2024 10:52 pm

I kid I kid
Read on Twitter
?s=20
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#137 » by LordCovington33 » Fri Jan 12, 2024 1:30 am

Mavrelous wrote:I kid I kid
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Lovely for a mod to be mocking a player’s injuries.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#138 » by Mavrelous » Fri Jan 12, 2024 1:35 am

LordCovington33 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:I kid I kid
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Lovely for a mod to be mocking a player’s injuries.


I wouldn't have if I tbought his injuries were serious, Luka is injured a lot also, I would've found it funny if it was about him.
Lighten up, it's Sports entertainmemt.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#139 » by LordCovington33 » Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:03 am

Mavrelous wrote:
LordCovington33 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:I kid I kid
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Lovely for a mod to be mocking a player’s injuries.


I wouldn't have if I tbought his injuries were serious, Luka is injured a lot also, I would've found it funny if it was about him.
Lighten up, it's Sports entertainmemt.

I need to lighten up for posts trolling another team’s player? I will keep that in mind next time.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread) 

Post#140 » by iggymcfrack » Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:04 am

Giannis firmly taking control of 3rd ahead of Embiid with what’s currently a +37 against the best team in the league with excellent numbers.

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