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Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1181 » by shangrila » Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:19 am

minimus wrote:
shangrila wrote:
BlacJacMac wrote:
I don't really get the Nembhard love. I think there is a good chance we give up the best 2 pieces in the trade - and it doesn't really help us this year.

It's more of an obsession at this point.


Obsession? Nembhard is a big guard who can defend and be pass first player that we need. Also his contract will help us a lot. He plays behind Hali and might never have a chance to show his potential, it is in similar situation with Quickley in NYK. Giving up Anderson, Miller and SPR for me is fair, because I see Nembhard as a missing piece here. There is a high chance that we will let go Anderson in offseason, and Miller has a long way to find a role in NBA.

You can call it obsession, but fair trades happens in NBA. NYK are 5:0 after acquiring Anunoby, and Quickley looks great as starter in TOR.

P.S. I am totally biased but I dont get why we need injury prone Brogdon on massive contract. I love Tyus but he has limitations as defender and will chase a big contract. I like Monte Morris fit here, but he is recovering from injury and will seek new contract. I dont see many chances here.

You've been suggesting trades involving Nembhard for months. I'd argue it's an obsession at this point.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1182 » by minimus » Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:46 am

shangrila wrote:
minimus wrote:
shangrila wrote:It's more of an obsession at this point.


Obsession? Nembhard is a big guard who can defend and be pass first player that we need. Also his contract will help us a lot. He plays behind Hali and might never have a chance to show his potential, it is in similar situation with Quickley in NYK. Giving up Anderson, Miller and SPR for me is fair, because I see Nembhard as a missing piece here. There is a high chance that we will let go Anderson in offseason, and Miller has a long way to find a role in NBA.

You can call it obsession, but fair trades happens in NBA. NYK are 5:0 after acquiring Anunoby, and Quickley looks great as starter in TOR.

P.S. I am totally biased but I dont get why we need injury prone Brogdon on massive contract. I love Tyus but he has limitations as defender and will chase a big contract. I like Monte Morris fit here, but he is recovering from injury and will seek new contract. I dont see many chances here.

You've been suggesting trades involving Nembhard for months. I'd argue it's an obsession at this point.


I just dont see another young PG on cheap multiyear contract, who has starting PG potential and sits on bench behind All Star PG...
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1183 » by DaMplsKid » Fri Jan 12, 2024 1:47 pm

BlacJacMac wrote:I love Brogden, but I don't know how you get to his salary without going into the tax this year.

Kyle, Shake, TBJ, WMJ and McLaughlin gets you there financially, but then you have to add a bunch of minimum guys to get to the roster minimum. And I don't know why Portlans would want that pupu platter.

Naz+Kyle works and Portland probably does that to get Naz - but I don't.


Yeah I am not sure we should be worrying about going into the Tax with how close this team is. I am not sure how the trade would work, but I would give up Miller and our Den 2nd round pick. Maybe we workout a deal with Conley who then gets bought out and resigns?

Again I am not the GM trade guy but I want a real 3rd scoring option who can help us win a playoff series. Some of these roll players people bring up don't move the needle enough for me.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1184 » by DaMplsKid » Fri Jan 12, 2024 5:42 pm

Note30 wrote:
DaMplsKid wrote:I am not sure how to make these work but I only want to trade to a difference maker.

Tier 1
DeMar DeRozan is #1 on my list. I am not sure if the Bulls are ready to go full on rebuild but I would love to pick him up and bring in an elite 6th man . He would be our Andre Iguodala for the GSW. He could run the second unit and make clutch basket down the stretch when we need them. He is on an expiring deal and if traded to a non playoff team could be a buyout guy.

Malcolm Brogdon is #2 He brings another big guard who can take mins off Conley. He plays good defense shoots 40% from 3 and is a 5/1 asst/to ratio. He is also signed for 1 more year incase Conley doesn't come back next year. Also, he's not even starting in Portland.

Tier 2
Tyus Jones He just doesn't turn the ball over but also don't think he is a real playmaker. Solid #2 PG who shoots 40% from 3. Just not the defender but against second units playing off Ant or Towns should be good.
Luke Kennard not really sure how I feel about adding him cause he's not a ball handler however the guys shoots almost 50% from 3pt.

Tier 3
Jordan Clarkson he just gets buckets but not much of a shooter but, would be a great complement to NAW off the bench.
Collin Sexton I might like him more then Clarkson. I think he is a bull dog defender and would bring some energy to the second unit. Also, an above average 3pt shooter.
Only problem with these two is they have 2 more years on their contract
Tier 4
Dennis Schroder 6/1 Asst/TO ratio right now but not a great shooter


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Only trade I could think of that would get us DeRozan, I think this costs a bit too much imo.

Caruso / Ant / DeRozan / Towns / Gobert
Jones / NAW / TBJ / Reid

Feels like a bad trade.


Again not a trade expert but with DeRozan being on the last year the Bulls should be looking to get something for him. Miller and our Den 2nd pick with more expiring contracts could get it done. If we trade Conley or Anderson the Bulls could buy them out and we resign them back to our roster.

I think this late in Conley career he might be ok doing this to finally get the ring.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1185 » by MN7725 » Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:11 pm

DaMplsKid wrote:
Note30 wrote:
DaMplsKid wrote:I am not sure how to make these work but I only want to trade to a difference maker.

Tier 1
DeMar DeRozan is #1 on my list. I am not sure if the Bulls are ready to go full on rebuild but I would love to pick him up and bring in an elite 6th man . He would be our Andre Iguodala for the GSW. He could run the second unit and make clutch basket down the stretch when we need them. He is on an expiring deal and if traded to a non playoff team could be a buyout guy.

Malcolm Brogdon is #2 He brings another big guard who can take mins off Conley. He plays good defense shoots 40% from 3 and is a 5/1 asst/to ratio. He is also signed for 1 more year incase Conley doesn't come back next year. Also, he's not even starting in Portland.

Tier 2
Tyus Jones He just doesn't turn the ball over but also don't think he is a real playmaker. Solid #2 PG who shoots 40% from 3. Just not the defender but against second units playing off Ant or Towns should be good.
Luke Kennard not really sure how I feel about adding him cause he's not a ball handler however the guys shoots almost 50% from 3pt.

Tier 3
Jordan Clarkson he just gets buckets but not much of a shooter but, would be a great complement to NAW off the bench.
Collin Sexton I might like him more then Clarkson. I think he is a bull dog defender and would bring some energy to the second unit. Also, an above average 3pt shooter.
Only problem with these two is they have 2 more years on their contract
Tier 4
Dennis Schroder 6/1 Asst/TO ratio right now but not a great shooter


Image

Only trade I could think of that would get us DeRozan, I think this costs a bit too much imo.

Caruso / Ant / DeRozan / Towns / Gobert
Jones / NAW / TBJ / Reid

Feels like a bad trade.


Again not a trade expert but with DeRozan being on the last year the Bulls should be looking to get something for him. Miller and our Den 2nd pick with more expiring contracts could get it done. If we trade Conley or Anderson the Bulls could buy them out and we resign them back to our roster.

I think this late in Conley career he might be ok doing this to finally get the ring.


teams can't reacquire players they traded away until following offseason
that changed probably at least 10 years ago
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1186 » by andyhop » Sat Jan 13, 2024 5:38 am

Klomp wrote:
MN7725 wrote:Jevon Carter looks like he might lose his spot in Bulls rotation with Lavine back

Bulls might be moving him for expiring (Milton?) at that point, Carter has $6.5 mil '24-25, PO in '25-26

This is one of those under-the-radar targets I'm all for!


If you were an owner would you ok a deal that meant you had to pay $25m+ to have Jevon Carter on your team next year?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1187 » by winforlose » Sat Jan 13, 2024 6:53 am

andyhop wrote:
Klomp wrote:
MN7725 wrote:Jevon Carter looks like he might lose his spot in Bulls rotation with Lavine back

Bulls might be moving him for expiring (Milton?) at that point, Carter has $6.5 mil '24-25, PO in '25-26

This is one of those under-the-radar targets I'm all for!


If you were an owner would you ok a deal that meant you had to pay $25m+ to have Jevon Carter on your team next year?


I am not advocating for Jevon Carter, but your statement is wrong. The tax payment is not for one player, it is for the effectiveness of the roster. If you could see the future and knew with 100% certainty that paying player X gets you a title, then whether that player is Kevin Durant or Josh Okogie, you pay what it costs. Now ownership cannot see the future and has no such guarantee. But, they make a lot more money winning than losing, and spending 80 million more to make 100 million more is good business. The key is finding that profitable player who gets you more wins.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1188 » by andyhop » Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:10 am

winforlose wrote:
andyhop wrote:
Klomp wrote:This is one of those under-the-radar targets I'm all for!


If you were an owner would you ok a deal that meant you had to pay $25m+ to have Jevon Carter on your team next year?


I am not advocating for Jevon Carter, but your statement is wrong. The tax payment is not for one player, it is for the effectiveness of the roster. If you could see the future and knew with 100% certainty that paying player X gets you a title, then whether that player is Kevin Durant or Josh Okogie, you pay what it costs. Now ownership cannot see the future and has no such guarantee. But, they make a lot more money winning than losing, and spending 80 million more to make 100 million more is good business. The key is finding that profitable player who gets you more wins.


A long way of saying that no you wouldn't pay $25m for Carter next year
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1189 » by winforlose » Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:23 am

andyhop wrote:
winforlose wrote:
andyhop wrote:
If you were an owner would you ok a deal that meant you had to pay $25m+ to have Jevon Carter on your team next year?


I am not advocating for Jevon Carter, but your statement is wrong. The tax payment is not for one player, it is for the effectiveness of the roster. If you could see the future and knew with 100% certainty that paying player X gets you a title, then whether that player is Kevin Durant or Josh Okogie, you pay what it costs. Now ownership cannot see the future and has no such guarantee. But, they make a lot more money winning than losing, and spending 80 million more to make 100 million more is good business. The key is finding that profitable player who gets you more wins.


A long way of saying that no you wouldn't pay $25m for Carter next year


If Carter were the missing piece I would pay 80. I would pay 80+ for any free agent or traded player that got us closer to the chip. Because whether it is Tyus, or Murray, or whoever, the tax money isn’t for the specific player, it’s for the collective roster. I am justifying it by saying it makes more money than it costs. I just don’t believe Carter cracks our rotations.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1190 » by andyhop » Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:41 am

winforlose wrote:
andyhop wrote:
winforlose wrote:
I am not advocating for Jevon Carter, but your statement is wrong. The tax payment is not for one player, it is for the effectiveness of the roster. If you could see the future and knew with 100% certainty that paying player X gets you a title, then whether that player is Kevin Durant or Josh Okogie, you pay what it costs. Now ownership cannot see the future and has no such guarantee. But, they make a lot more money winning than losing, and spending 80 million more to make 100 million more is good business. The key is finding that profitable player who gets you more wins.


A long way of saying that no you wouldn't pay $25m for Carter next year


If Carter were the missing piece I would pay 80. I would pay 80+ for any free agent or traded player that got us closer to the chip. Because whether it is Tyus, or Murray, or whoever, the tax money isn’t for the specific player, it’s for the collective roster. I am justifying it by saying it makes more money than it costs. I just don’t believe Carter cracks our rotations.


The tax money is for a specific player though , unless you have a plan to salary dump one of the starters.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1191 » by winforlose » Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:47 am

andyhop wrote:
winforlose wrote:
andyhop wrote:
A long way of saying that no you wouldn't pay $25m for Carter next year


If Carter were the missing piece I would pay 80. I would pay 80+ for any free agent or traded player that got us closer to the chip. Because whether it is Tyus, or Murray, or whoever, the tax money isn’t for the specific player, it’s for the collective roster. I am justifying it by saying it makes more money than it costs. I just don’t believe Carter cracks our rotations.


The tax money is for a specific player though , unless you have a plan to salary dump one of the starters.


That is not the right way to assess it. For example, let’s say you acquire player X and he costs 13 million. Let’s also say now you are 11 million over the tax. Well you could trade a different player for cap space and get closer to being under the tax. Player X’s money didn’t change, they still make 13. But the tax hit is not 13 times the multiplier. The tax is paid across the whole roster because that is how it functions. As for the specific cost, our ownership clearly knew where things were headed when they gave KAT a supermax, traded for Rudy, extended Ant, Jaden, and Naz, and traded for Mike. We are experiencing record profits, and this is a record start. This is not a coincidence.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1192 » by andyhop » Sat Jan 13, 2024 8:46 am

winforlose wrote:
andyhop wrote:
winforlose wrote:
If Carter were the missing piece I would pay 80. I would pay 80+ for any free agent or traded player that got us closer to the chip. Because whether it is Tyus, or Murray, or whoever, the tax money isn’t for the specific player, it’s for the collective roster. I am justifying it by saying it makes more money than it costs. I just don’t believe Carter cracks our rotations.


The tax money is for a specific player though , unless you have a plan to salary dump one of the starters.


That is not the right way to assess it. For example, let’s say you acquire player X and he costs 13 million. Let’s also say now you are 11 million over the tax. Well you could trade a different player for cap space and get closer to being under the tax. Player X’s money didn’t change, they still make 13. But the tax hit is not 13 times the multiplier. The tax is paid across the whole roster because that is how it functions. As for the specific cost, our ownership clearly knew where things were headed when they gave KAT a supermax, traded for Rudy, extended Ant, Jaden, and Naz, and traded for Mike. We are experiencing record profits, and this is a record start. This is not a coincidence.


It doesn't matter that everyone contributes to a team paying the tax, when you add someone who comes with a tax bill that cost attaches to them when you are considering the cost value relationship.

I think that ownerships vision was the core, draft picks and min salary players but time will tell.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1193 » by winforlose » Sat Jan 13, 2024 8:59 am

andyhop wrote:
winforlose wrote:
andyhop wrote:
The tax money is for a specific player though , unless you have a plan to salary dump one of the starters.


That is not the right way to assess it. For example, let’s say you acquire player X and he costs 13 million. Let’s also say now you are 11 million over the tax. Well you could trade a different player for cap space and get closer to being under the tax. Player X’s money didn’t change, they still make 13. But the tax hit is not 13 times the multiplier. The tax is paid across the whole roster because that is how it functions. As for the specific cost, our ownership clearly knew where things were headed when they gave KAT a supermax, traded for Rudy, extended Ant, Jaden, and Naz, and traded for Mike. We are experiencing record profits, and this is a record start. This is not a coincidence.


It doesn't matter that everyone contributes to a team paying the tax, when you add someone who comes with a tax bill that cost attaches to them when you are considering the cost value relationship.

I think that ownerships vision was the core, draft picks and min salary players but time will tell.


You don’t seem to follow the point. The tax bill is not tied directly to the player in question because subsequent moves can alter the equation. Your argument is if we bring in player 15 they cost us X in tax. But if we trade WMJ then player 15 costs no tax because we are under the tax. My other point was that if Lore and Arod believed that Tyus wins us a chip, they would pay Tyus and let the tax be damned. Likewise if the same could be said of trading KAT for X or Kyle for X or whoever for X then they would trade for X.

Ownerships vision is the championship. You don’t trade all your draft flexibility until 2030 and only be able to win the lottery in 24 and 28 to not win it all. They knew going in they were keeping Naz and Jaden, and they figured out they couldn’t pull it off with Dlo. The problem with Conley is that he is old and we have no heir apparent. Turning Ant into an on ball guard is supposed to be a contingency, but his handle isn’t good enough, his BBIQ isn’t good enough, his passing isn’t good enough, and he is too immature to handle it. The vision was also Shake or WMJ being his PG but that vision obviously went to ****. Can you honestly tell me that you think we lose the Boston game if Conley is on the floor? Or we lose the Dallas game if Conley is running the offense with the ball in his hand in crunch time? If ownership wants to win now, they will acquire a PG so Ant isn’t the on ball guard in crunch time.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1194 » by andyhop » Sat Jan 13, 2024 9:23 am

winforlose wrote:
andyhop wrote:
winforlose wrote:
That is not the right way to assess it. For example, let’s say you acquire player X and he costs 13 million. Let’s also say now you are 11 million over the tax. Well you could trade a different player for cap space and get closer to being under the tax. Player X’s money didn’t change, they still make 13. But the tax hit is not 13 times the multiplier. The tax is paid across the whole roster because that is how it functions. As for the specific cost, our ownership clearly knew where things were headed when they gave KAT a supermax, traded for Rudy, extended Ant, Jaden, and Naz, and traded for Mike. We are experiencing record profits, and this is a record start. This is not a coincidence.


It doesn't matter that everyone contributes to a team paying the tax, when you add someone who comes with a tax bill that cost attaches to them when you are considering the cost value relationship.

I think that ownerships vision was the core, draft picks and min salary players but time will tell.


You don’t seem to follow the point. The tax bill is not tied directly to the player in question because subsequent moves can alter the equation. Your argument is if we bring in player 15 they cost us X in tax. But if we trade WMJ then player 15 costs no tax because we are under the tax. My other point was that if Lore and Arod believed that Tyus wins us a chip, they would pay Tyus and let the tax be damned. Likewise if the same could be said of trading KAT for X or Kyle for X or whoever for X then they would trade for X.

Ownerships vision is the championship. You don’t trade all your draft flexibility until 2030 and only be able to win the lottery in 24 and 28 to not win it all. They knew going in they were keeping Naz and Jaden, and they figured out they couldn’t pull it off with Dlo. The problem with Conley is that he is old and we have no heir apparent. Turning Ant into an on ball guard is supposed to be a contingency, but his handle isn’t good enough, his BBIQ isn’t good enough, his passing isn’t good enough, and he is too immature to handle it. The vision was also Shake or WMJ being his PG but that vision obviously went to ****. Can you honestly tell me that you think we lose the Boston game if Conley is on the floor? Or we lose the Dallas game if Conley is running the offense with the ball in his hand in crunch time? If ownership wants to win now, they will acquire a PG so Ant isn’t the on ball guard in crunch time.


I'm not sure what part of once you are in the tax with assets you want to keep ,every player added comes with an additional tax payment is hard for you to understand.

Now if you want to salary dump Jaden or KAT or not bring Conley back then that changes the calculation. Of course in that case it likely doesn't matter who your back up point guard is
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1195 » by TimberKat » Sat Jan 13, 2024 2:10 pm

I think it's a lock that we will get Tyrus Jones for KA + pick for this season. The bigger question is do you go for a bigger swing now? Maybe JMcD for Murray type trade?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1196 » by vtime » Sat Jan 13, 2024 5:55 pm

If you could get Siakam to resign would you do KAT and NAW for Siakam and Jaden’s older brother? You’d move comfortably under the tax to be in position to keep Conley when the extensions of Ant and Jaden kick in. You could resign Kyle and probably have money to add a backup pg too. Ofcourse you’d rather move Shake or TBJ since their money is similar to NAW, but they are probably more likely to want NAW as he’s more productive and it’s a mother Canadien on the heels of Barrett’s successful homecoming.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1197 » by Colbinii » Sat Jan 13, 2024 6:13 pm

vtime wrote:If you could get Siakam to resign would you do KAT and NAW for Siakam and Jaden’s older brother? You’d move comfortably under the tax to be in position to keep Conley when the extensions of Ant and Jaden kick in. You could resign Kyle and probably have money to add a backup pg too. Ofcourse you’d rather move Shake or TBJ since their money is similar to NAW, but they are probably more likely to want NAW as he’s more productive and it’s a mother Canadien on the heels of Barrett’s successful homecoming.


No. I have KAT > Siakam and NAW > McDabiels
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1198 » by Neeva » Sat Jan 13, 2024 8:18 pm

Wolves need to pick up Hayward after he is bought out, he played with Rudy right?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1199 » by BlacJacMac » Sat Jan 13, 2024 9:36 pm

Neeva wrote:Wolves need to pick up Hayward after he is bought out, he played with Rudy right?


For 4 seasons.

Good call. He could definitely help us.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1200 » by winforlose » Sat Jan 13, 2024 9:52 pm

Neeva wrote:Wolves need to pick up Hayward after he is bought out, he played with Rudy right?


Not sure any team trades for him just to buy him out. Also not sure the Rudy connection is enough to bring him to us.

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