2023-24 NY Knicks trade ideas, Part 3

[cgf]

[snip]

Anyways, were you able to find a more credible link for the IQ-DJM rumor? Or are Scotto & Woike the original sources for everything linking us to Murray?

[Jalen Bluntson]

I don't think most realize just how BIG an impact the CBA is going to make on who is a good contract or not.

1 way high scoring guys who can't play D are not going to be in desire if they have long term 40+M AAV dollar contracts.

This is the Lavine conundrum.

Its why nobody wants that financial burden on their books yet a guy like Murray even though not perfect is more in demand due to a much more manageable 23 ish M dollar contract.

Randle/Brunson/Mitch/iHart/Deuce/DDV/Grimes are some of the best value contracts in the league. All play in the rotation on a playoff level team. All have trade value.

LaVine...no one wants that contract on their books.

At least not with giving up much to get him and/or a bit of a salary dump back of their own.

A desperate team like the Lakers may trade for him. I'm not saying it's impossible to trade him but, the value will be much less than if he made say, 25-30 mil per. He would most likely not even be on the block or, be traded already.

[cgf]

Randle/Brunson/Mitch/iHart/Deuce/DDV/Grimes are some of the best value contracts in the league. All play in the rotation on a playoff level team. All have trade value.

LaVine...no one wants that contract on their books.

At least not with giving up much to get him and/or a bit of a salary dump back of their own.

A desperate team like the Lakers may trade for him. I'm not saying it's impossible to trade him but, the value will be much less than if he made say, 25-30 mil per. He would most likely not even be on the block or, be traded already.

I don't think anyone sane would argue against the bolded. Even if you believe all of the myths about him, that feels like it goes without saying.

The things some folks aren't getting is that Chicago's FO doesn't want to trade him, even though he's been trying to force his way out since last season. That's why they demanded a bunch of FRPs for him, and when nobody offered to pay that price for him, they were happy to force him to return to the lineup.

The impetus to trade Lavine isn't coming from the Bulls FO, it's coming from Zach and people outside of Chicago. The Bulls FO thinks that what they're doing is working.

[sol537]

Can we ban any Lavine trade talk please?

[cgf]

Can we ban any Lavine trade talk please?

Would have to ban any Lavine slander, and I dunno if you guys are capable of that

[sol537]

I need a palate cleanser from all this Lavine talk that's making me sick...

Randle for Zion, anyone? =)

[Jalen Bluntson]

I don't think most realize just how BIG an impact the CBA is going to make on who is a good contract or not.

1 way high scoring guys who can't play D are not going to be in desire if they have long term 40+M AAV dollar contracts.

This is the Lavine conundrum.

Its why nobody wants that financial burden on their books yet a guy like Murray even though not perfect is more in demand due to a much more manageable 23 ish M dollar contract.

Randle/Brunson/Mitch/iHart/Deuce/DDV/Grimes are some of the best value contracts in the league. All play in the rotation on a playoff level team. All have trade value.

LaVine...no one wants that contract on their books.

*No one except for the team that already has him on their books.

*That team is trying to TRADE HIM!! WTF is your obsession with just being dead wrong and ploughing forward with zero awareness of reality?

Zach can provide some decent scoring and NOTHING ELSE. That's why he's been traded and, on the block again with no suitors. He's overpaid and everyone except you wants to beat this dead horse. He's a salary dump contract that no one can afford.

[cgf]

I need a palate cleanser from all this Lavine talk that's making me sick...

Randle for Zion, anyone? =)

Forget I said anything, let's go back to wishing for Murray


But to turn the conversation in a more productive direction, has anyone like Woj or Shams linked us to Murray? Is everyone talking about DJM just because the guy from Hoopshype and a Lakers beat reporter said we were ready to give up IQ for him?

I'm curious since KnixinSix said the Ringer was not a credible source for Atlanta wanting 2 FRPs for Murray because more credible links said we were ready to give up IQ, so did I just miss the credible links? Or was KnixinSix just trying to imply that Hoopshype is more credible than the Ringer?

[Jalen Bluntson]

At least not with giving up much to get him and/or a bit of a salary dump back of their own.

A desperate team like the Lakers may trade for him. I'm not saying it's impossible to trade him but, the value will be much less than if he made say, 25-30 mil per. He would most likely not even be on the block or, be traded already.

I don't think anyone sane would argue against the bolded. Even if you believe all of the myths about him, that feels like it goes without saying.

The things some folks aren't getting is that Chicago's FO doesn't want to trade him, even though he's been trying to force his way out since last season. That's why they demanded a bunch of FRPs for him, and when nobody offered to pay that price for him, they were happy to force him to return to the lineup.

The impetus to trade Lavine isn't coming from the Bulls FO, it's coming from Zach and people outside of Chicago. The Bulls FO thinks that what they're doing is working.

Link please

[Deeeez Knicks]

Again the contract & his desire to play with LeBron make him an unrealistic target for us

But his game would be an ideal fit for our needs as a 3rd option who could play off Brundle & beat up on bench guys when they rested; he doesn't miss much more time to injuries than Brunson does (see above), and the Bulls have looked even better since he got back...10-8 w/o Lavine, 4-1 since his return.

The issues with Lavines fit is on the defensive end. We see it on the Bulls with him and Derozan together. It’s tough to have 3 bad defenders that teams can target in the playoffs. His contract is a killer. Trading for his contract would basically cap our ceiling and doom the Knicks.

That's exaggerated as well. The Bulls had a top 5 defense just last season, despite Vucevic "protecting" the rim behind Lavine & DeRozan, because Zach and DDR just aren't that bad defensively.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?Season=2022-23&dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

Lavine
-1.1 D-RAPTOR, -0.73 D-DARKO, +0.3 D-EPM
Brunson
-1.0 D-RAPTOR, -1.14 D-DARKO, -0.8 D-EPM
Booker
-0.4 D-RAPTOR, -0.9 D-DARKO, -0.7 D-EPM
Randle
-1.3 D-RAPTOR, -0.73 D-DARKO, -0.0 D-EPM

RAPTOR stats from last season, DARKO & EPM #s from this season.


This isn't Trae & DJM we're talking about.
Young
-0.9 D-RAPTOR, -2.0 D-DARKO, -0.9 D-EPM
Murray
-1.1 D-RAPTOR, -1.52 D-DARKO, -0.5 D-EPM

His defense is still bad. I mean, all those guys are bad defenders and in the negative. The advanced defensive metrics aren’t meant to be a ratings system….but it tells you is he a bad defender.

In terms of the Bulls, then why do they struggle so much and so eager to trade Lavine? Just seems like we are asking for similar problems. We have to pay OG, then Brunson, hopefully iHart….while also being stuck with Lavine. That contract would bury us. He doesnt put us over the top, and we may even be worse if we have to trade Mitch, iHart, Donte, etc. No thanks.

[3toheadmelo]

Can we ban any Lavine trade talk please?

only if we ban kris dunn trade talk

[cgf]

Randle/Brunson/Mitch/iHart/Deuce/DDV/Grimes are some of the best value contracts in the league. All play in the rotation on a playoff level team. All have trade value.

LaVine...no one wants that contract on their books.

*No one except for the team that already has him on their books.

*That team is trying to TRADE HIM!! WTF is your obsession with just being dead wrong and ploughing forward with zero awareness of reality?

Zach can provide some decent scoring and NOTHING ELSE. That's why he's been traded and, on the block again with no suitors. He's overpaid and everyone except you wants to beat this dead horse. He's a salary dump contract that no one can afford.

The only sources saying they're trying to trade him are LeBron connected people like Windhorst & the Lakers beat guy. The Chicago reporters haven't said anything of the sort, this is from today's tribune:

Nine weeks have passed since Zach LaVine first made it clear he’s open to a trade. Yet less than four weeks until this trade window closes, the Bulls appear no closer to a blockbuster deal involving the two-time All-Star guard.

Could that finally change in the upcoming weeks? That’s up to the Bulls

Here are four key questions that will define the next four weeks for the Bulls.

1. Could Zach LaVine remain a Bull?

Yes.

It’s a simple question and a simple answer. There’s a very real chance LaVine will remain in Chicago after the trade deadline.

LaVine is too valuable — both in on-court contributions and salary size — for the Bulls to move him if they feel an offer isn’t appropriate. And that means the front office is somewhat stuck until it gets an offer that meets its expectations.

Second, the mood in Chicago never has been as contentious as the facts of the situation might appear. Yes, LaVine has pushed for a trade and, yes, the Bulls have been looking. But LaVine remains attentive to his teammates and willing to work within the system that has been more successful recently.

As that persists, the situation has not become toxic within the Bulls locker room. That combination increases the front office’s willingness to wait until the next trade window.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bulls/ct-chicago-bulls-trade-deadline-20240115-be3cg7hvk5cwtf7zgcreor72lq-story.html

[Jalen Bluntson]

*No one except for the team that already has him on their books.

*That team is trying to TRADE HIM!! WTF is your obsession with just being dead wrong and ploughing forward with zero awareness of reality?

Zach can provide some decent scoring and NOTHING ELSE. That's why he's been traded and, on the block again with no suitors. He's overpaid and everyone except you wants to beat this dead horse. He's a salary dump contract that no one can afford.

The only sources saying they're trying to trade him are LeBron connected people like Windhorst & the Lakers beat guy. The Chicago reporters haven't said anything of the sort, this is from today's tribune:

Nine weeks have passed since Zach LaVine first made it clear he’s open to a trade. Yet less than four weeks until this trade window closes, the Bulls appear no closer to a blockbuster deal involving the two-time All-Star guard.

Could that finally change in the upcoming weeks? That’s up to the Bulls

Here are four key questions that will define the next four weeks for the Bulls.

1. Could Zach LaVine remain a Bull?

Yes.

It’s a simple question and a simple answer. There’s a very real chance LaVine will remain in Chicago after the trade deadline.

LaVine is too valuable — both in on-court contributions and salary size — for the Bulls to move him if they feel an offer isn’t appropriate. And that means the front office is somewhat stuck until it gets an offer that meets its expectations.

Second, the mood in Chicago never has been as contentious as the facts of the situation might appear. Yes, LaVine has pushed for a trade and, yes, the Bulls have been looking. But LaVine remains attentive to his teammates and willing to work within the system that has been more successful recently.

As that persists, the situation has not become toxic within the Bulls locker room. That combination increases the front office’s willingness to wait until the next trade window.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bulls/ct-chicago-bulls-trade-deadline-20240115-be3cg7hvk5cwtf7zgcreor72lq-story.html

Bulls friendly reporting negates everyone else. You are funny bro. Just because they are asking too much doesn't mean they don't want to trade him. They just think they can get more and found out NO ONE wants to pay for him in value AND that ridiculous contract.

[Buttah304]

We need to kill this LaVine talk. It’s an utterly horrendous idea. I can guarantee you he’s coming up more in these trade threads than GMs making inquiries to Chicago about.

[cgf]

The issues with Lavines fit is on the defensive end. We see it on the Bulls with him and Derozan together. It’s tough to have 3 bad defenders that teams can target in the playoffs. His contract is a killer. Trading for his contract would basically cap our ceiling and doom the Knicks.

That's exaggerated as well. The Bulls had a top 5 defense just last season, despite Vucevic "protecting" the rim behind Lavine & DeRozan, because Zach and DDR just aren't that bad defensively.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?Season=2022-23&dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

Lavine
-1.1 D-RAPTOR, -0.73 D-DARKO, +0.3 D-EPM
Brunson
-1.0 D-RAPTOR, -1.14 D-DARKO, -0.8 D-EPM
Booker
-0.4 D-RAPTOR, -0.9 D-DARKO, -0.7 D-EPM
Randle
-1.3 D-RAPTOR, -0.73 D-DARKO, -0.0 D-EPM

RAPTOR stats from last season, DARKO & EPM #s from this season.


This isn't Trae & DJM we're talking about.
Young
-0.9 D-RAPTOR, -2.0 D-DARKO, -0.9 D-EPM
Murray
-1.1 D-RAPTOR, -1.52 D-DARKO, -0.5 D-EPM

His defense is still bad. I mean, all those guys are bad defenders and in the negative. The advanced defensive metrics aren’t meant to be a ratings system….but it tells you is he a bad defender.

In terms of the Bulls, then why do they struggle so much and so eager to trade Lavine? Just seems like we are asking for similar problems. We have to pay OG, then Brunson, hopefully iHart….while also being stuck with Lavine. That contract would bury us. He doesnt put us over the top, and we may even be worse if we have to trade Mitch, iHart, Donte, etc. No thanks.

He's not a plus even with EPM thinking he is, but he's also not going to undermine a defense on his own and he's not someone that teams can isolate & target because his on-ball D is pretty good...he's a lot like Julius in that respect, he's bad because of his help defense isn't great, but not so bad it sabotages his team as a whole.

They struggle so much because their offense has been a mess since Lonzo broke. It worked with him organizing everything, but without him running the show DeMar just dominates the offense. That's why Coby White breaking out while Zach was hurt has them playing so much better even now that he's back, they finally have a starting caliber PG again...which is why they've gone 14-9 in their last 23 games.

And how eager they are to trade him depends on whether you read sources more plugged into the Bulls or LeBron. What we know for sure is that Lavine has requested to be traded, but according to the Chicago reporters the FO slapped a big asking price on him that they have refused to negotiate at all so far. So whether they actually want to move him or not isn't clear.



Not arguing for him as a target for us because his salary is tricky to trade for...would need to be something like Mitch + DDV + Fournier + Arci + Sims for Lavine + Caruso + Gafford, with a Flynn/vet min swap on the side to keep us under the hardcap...and he's been trying to guide himself to the Lakers to play with Lebron.

But I don't think his contract would be that big of an issue if our FO knew that no superstar was going to hit the market this summer. We're going to be a super-tax team in 2025-2026, after Brunson & Randle opt out of their bargain contracts and sign their own 50M a year deals. So if we don't make our "kawhi trade" in the next 13 months, we'll have to make is as a 2nd apron team.

And once you hit that 2nd apron you can no longer aggregate outgoing salaries to match in trades. Meaning every trade has to work as a 1-for-1, in which case having a 3rd salary that was big enough to match for a superstar 1-for-1, could actually be more useful than having two medium salaries that would need to be combined to match for a max cat.

[3toheadmelo]

We need to kill this LaVine talk. It’s an utterly horrendous idea. I can guarantee you he’s coming up more in these trade threads than GMs making inquiries to Chicago about.

how about anfernee simons? not sure if portland wants to keep him long term since they have scoot and sharpe

[omerome]

We need to kill this LaVine talk. It’s an utterly horrendous idea. I can guarantee you he’s coming up more in these trade threads than GMs making inquiries to Chicago about.

how about anfernee simons? not sure if portland wants to keep him long term since they have scoot and sharpe

I'd love Simons, but he would be an expensive get.

[cgf]

*That team is trying to TRADE HIM!! WTF is your obsession with just being dead wrong and ploughing forward with zero awareness of reality?

Zach can provide some decent scoring and NOTHING ELSE. That's why he's been traded and, on the block again with no suitors. He's overpaid and everyone except you wants to beat this dead horse. He's a salary dump contract that no one can afford.

The only sources saying they're trying to trade him are LeBron connected people like Windhorst & the Lakers beat guy. The Chicago reporters haven't said anything of the sort, this is from today's tribune:

Nine weeks have passed since Zach LaVine first made it clear he’s open to a trade. Yet less than four weeks until this trade window closes, the Bulls appear no closer to a blockbuster deal involving the two-time All-Star guard.

Could that finally change in the upcoming weeks? That’s up to the Bulls

Here are four key questions that will define the next four weeks for the Bulls.

1. Could Zach LaVine remain a Bull?

Yes.

It’s a simple question and a simple answer. There’s a very real chance LaVine will remain in Chicago after the trade deadline.

LaVine is too valuable — both in on-court contributions and salary size — for the Bulls to move him if they feel an offer isn’t appropriate. And that means the front office is somewhat stuck until it gets an offer that meets its expectations.

Second, the mood in Chicago never has been as contentious as the facts of the situation might appear. Yes, LaVine has pushed for a trade and, yes, the Bulls have been looking. But LaVine remains attentive to his teammates and willing to work within the system that has been more successful recently.

As that persists, the situation has not become toxic within the Bulls locker room. That combination increases the front office’s willingness to wait until the next trade window.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bulls/ct-chicago-bulls-trade-deadline-20240115-be3cg7hvk5cwtf7zgcreor72lq-story.html

Bulls friendly reporting negates everyone else. You are funny bro. Just because they are asking too much doesn't mean they don't want to trade him. They just think they can get more and found out NO ONE wants to pay for him in value AND that ridiculous contract.

Just so I'm clear. You're arguing that the reporters with sources in the Bulls FO...who have been plenty critical of this regime...know less about the Bulls' intentions than a Lakers' beat guy & the guy who built his career on carrying water for LeBron?

Folks that don't follow the Bulls just don't understand how delusional this FO is. They think they can make noise as things stand and are still hoping that Lonzo will recover. So as long as they keep winning enough to make the play-in, they're more likely to be buyers than sellers.

[cgf]

We need to kill this LaVine talk. It’s an utterly horrendous idea. I can guarantee you he’s coming up more in these trade threads than GMs making inquiries to Chicago about.

how about anfernee simons? not sure if portland wants to keep him long term since they have scoot and sharpe

I'd love Simons, but he would be an expensive get.

Depends, IIRC Portland fans have said that their expectation is the FO would sell Brogdon for 1 FRP, Grant for 2 FRPs, and Simons for 3. If those are unprotected FRPs and they won't settle for Grimes + 24 NYK FRP + DAL FRP, then yeah we'd be priced out, but Jerry West and our 2 FRPs this spring is a significant offer.

Has his defense improved enough for him to share the court with Brunson?

[HarthorneWingo]

Randle for Siakam?