I realize we're all dug in on our position [for the time being at least], so I don't expect capitulation or intend to engage on this topic until I get it; I don't necessarily even expect a response, fwiw. But for the sake of posterity I'm going to respond to a few points.....
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
I would say a few things here.
One, when you're comparing the 69-74 Knicks with 08-13 Lakers, there are two seasons where Reed barely played(a combined 30 games), which is going to drag those numbers(particularly the team numbers since, as I showed before, the SRS dropped a lot without him) down somewhat, whereas Gasol, while not exactly an ironman, played >50% of all those Laker seasons in that range.
This is true, but this kinda seems like it's trying to spin Reed's missed time into a
positive thing; or perhaps making Gasol's availability a
negative against him.
Yes, I have no doubt the Knick record and SRS would have been better had Reed consistently played. But the plain fact of the matter is
he didn't; that's sort of the point. The numbers I cited are in fact the figures on how the Knicks did
when he was on the team, paired with a prime Walt Frazier, plus the rest of the solid supporting cast, and Holzman as coach. He doesn't [or shouldn't] get credit for how good they
would have been had he played (because he DIDN'T play).
As to the latter point, I'd counter that Pau Gasol was misused in '12 and especially '13, once Phil Jackson and the triangle were gone, and Pau was sort of turned into a pseudo stretch-4 (especially under D'Antoni in '13).
Observe that in '12 the proportion of his shot attempts that come OUTSIDE OF 16' jumps to 27.7% (previous career high had been 18.3%); then in '13 it jumps further to 31.6% (he would eventually develop legit 3pt range, but he hadn't yet, and was sort of being forced into an outside shooting role before he was any good at it).
These are also comfortably the lowest FTAr and lowest proportion of shots at the rim for his career to that point. His metrics sort of plummet as a result of taking him out of the post where he's most effective (look how things would bounce back in '15 for Chicago (even though he's 34 years old by that point), for being used more in the post).
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Two, the tougher era thing doesn't really come into play when you're evaluating players in an era-relative context.
Fair enough.
I personally disagree with taking no account of era. While it's true that players can only take on what is in front of them, there's also a nugget of truth to the hyperbolic
what if it was a brand new game that only 1000 people in whole world ever played, and the league was three teams of guys <6'.... type of arguments.
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Three, like I mentioned in the previous thread, Reed was playing out of position in the pre-Frazier years and I think it's valid to question whether that may have inhibited his performance or impact in any way.
And like I've shown above Pau was misused some years as well. Though in a more general sense this could be viewed as another point in Gasol's favour: that he's more positionally versatile, and [at various points in his career] was shown to be effective at EITHER C or PF.
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Four, given that he had already won the regular season MVP, I think we would be talking about him. He is, after all, one of only five MVPs that haven't been inducted yet - the others are McAdoo, Walton, Iverson, and Rose. Rose won't get in, but the others all merit serious discussion.
Actually there are six (you forgot Unseld).
Though this argument [for me] brings to mind how people here often say "such and such accolade or team achievement wouldn't change my ranking of him if his level of play was the same". It's malarkey in most instances, imo.
What if Reed
hadn't been the MVP that year? Because it easily could have gone another way in '70.....
Willis Reed: 21.7 ppg @ 55.2% TS, 13.9 rpg, 2.0 apg; 20.3 PER, .227 WS/48 (14.6 total WS), +3.8 estimated BPM [team was 60-22]
vs......
Jerry West: 31.2 ppg @ 57.2% TS, 4.6 rpg, 7.5 apg; 24.6 PER, .234 WS/48 (15.2 total WS), +5.1 estimated BPM [team was 46-36]
Walt Frazier: 20.9 ppg @ 57.5% TS, 6.0 rpg, 8.2 apg; 21.1 PER, .236 WS/48 (15.0 total WS), +6.8 estimated BPM [60-22 record]
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 28.8 ppg @ 55.2% TS, 14.5 rpg, 4.1 apg; 22.5 PER, .187 WS/48 (13.8 total WS), +5.1 estimated BPM [56-26 record]
Seems like any one of those guys has a VERY good case over Reed (to say nothing of more dark-horse cases like Havlicek, Robertson, or Cunningham).
And I've already pointed out that the FMVP in '70 very obviously SHOULD have gone to Frazier.
Take those awards away......
Would people still be championing him here? Would you?
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire