NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 3: Son of Daughter of MVP thread)

[Sixteen]

You couldn’t be anymore wrong. Embiid should’ve won mvp the two last seasons playing 66 games and 68 games. Right now he’s played significantly less games than Jokic but the odds are still in embiids favor to win MVP.

And I’m sorry but Embiid is probably the only player in the league that warrants a usage rate as high as his own. He scores more than a POINT PER MINUTE. When Jokic or SGA can score at that type of level get back to be about the usage argument.

You can say “it’s as simple as that” all you want but Embiid has been significantly better than Jokic and Sga this season. So far this season he’s beaten the Nuggets, the Celtics, the Timberwolves and the Thunder all of these teams have a top 7 record in the league. I also find it ridiculous that you knock him for playing teams that are on the schedule, what do you want him to do? Rest when the Sixers play a crap team? Why? Doesn’t make any sense especially when Jokic and SGA suit up to play crap teams as well.

But bottom line is your wrong and your gonna be in for a big surprise when Embiid plays 65 games and easily wins MVP over guys playing 10+ games more than Embiid.

No, obviously no one wants that. What people want is for Embiid to play in the big games against tough opponents if he wants to win the MVP. So far, the Sixers have had 9 road games against playoff teams. Embiid’s played 3 of them. 3 out of 9 doesn’t give you full credit. Especially when Jokic, SGA, and Giannis have played in 123 out of 127 possible games over the course of the season.

Embiid stans wanna act like there’s some huge gap when healthy that makes up for him missing the majority of the Sixers’ tough games, but it’s just not true. Jokic leads in BPM by a decent margin. WS/48 is a virtual 3-way tie. If you look at cumulative stats, Embiid is 3rd in VORP and ranks closer to 17th than 1st. He’s 4th in WS and ranks closer to 18th than 1st. He’s 4th in EPM EW. He’s much closer to being tied with Jokic and SGA on a per minute basis than he is to being tied with them once you account for him missing 26% of the season.

To add to this, check out https://craftednba.com/player-traits/king

In addition to the stats you mentioned, this website crafts an impact metric based on a variety of different impact metrics. Jokic clears.

You gotta give those two Philly fans credit though. Despite the playoffs going the way the did last year, and despite Embiid's reputation being worse than ever, and despite Jokic being better in impact metrics scores the board this year, they still insist Embiid is the better player. That's commitment in the face of truth.

which two Philly fans would say Embiid is better? This isn't even about who is better anymore. it's the fact that Embiid gets dragged for the same thing Jokic gets praised for.

[Jaqua92]

No, obviously no one wants that. What people want is for Embiid to play in the big games against tough opponents if he wants to win the MVP. So far, the Sixers have had 9 road games against playoff teams. Embiid’s played 3 of them. 3 out of 9 doesn’t give you full credit. Especially when Jokic, SGA, and Giannis have played in 123 out of 127 possible games over the course of the season.

Embiid stans wanna act like there’s some huge gap when healthy that makes up for him missing the majority of the Sixers’ tough games, but it’s just not true. Jokic leads in BPM by a decent margin. WS/48 is a virtual 3-way tie. If you look at cumulative stats, Embiid is 3rd in VORP and ranks closer to 17th than 1st. He’s 4th in WS and ranks closer to 18th than 1st. He’s 4th in EPM EW. He’s much closer to being tied with Jokic and SGA on a per minute basis than he is to being tied with them once you account for him missing 26% of the season.

To add to this, check out https://craftednba.com/player-traits/king

In addition to the stats you mentioned, this website crafts an impact metric based on a variety of different impact metrics. Jokic clears.

You gotta give those two Philly fans credit though. Despite the playoffs going the way the did last year, and despite Embiid's reputation being worse than ever, and despite Jokic being better in impact metrics scores the board this year, they still insist Embiid is the better player. That's commitment in the face of truth.

which two Philly fans would say Embiid is better? This isn't even about who is better anymore. it's the fact that Embiid gets dragged for the same thing Jokic gets praised for.

That last sentence isn't true. Embiid is dragged because he plays a James Harden brand of basketball with free throw baiting. And he's dragged because of the MVP discourse last season, and what happened in the post season. And he's dragged for missing 70% of the road games vs playoff teams this year. It's a combination of those 3 things which add fuel to the anti Embiid fire. For whatever reason, the ACTUAL reasons he's dragged isn't good enough for some Philly fans, you guys need the reasons to be hypocritical and undeserving. Embiid isn't being dragged for things Jokic is praised for.

[Sixteen]

To add to this, check out https://craftednba.com/player-traits/king

In addition to the stats you mentioned, this website crafts an impact metric based on a variety of different impact metrics. Jokic clears.

You gotta give those two Philly fans credit though. Despite the playoffs going the way the did last year, and despite Embiid's reputation being worse than ever, and despite Jokic being better in impact metrics scores the board this year, they still insist Embiid is the better player. That's commitment in the face of truth.

which two Philly fans would say Embiid is better? This isn't even about who is better anymore. it's the fact that Embiid gets dragged for the same thing Jokic gets praised for.

That last sentence isn't true. Embiid is dragged because he plays a James Harden brand of basketball with free throw baiting. And he's dragged because of the MVP discourse last season, and what happened in the post season. For whatever reason, the ACTUAL reasons he's dragged isn't good enough for some Philly fans, you guys need the reasons to be hypocritical and undeserving.

Teams need to stop fouling him. He's not even flopping for the calls he gets.if you want to drag someone, drag the refs. And please, Embiid was dragged on this board way before his MVP campaign. The attitude towards Embiid before he even played a game was always negative. It almost seemed like people hoped he wouldn't return from his injuries because yeah that a show the 76ers fans for being excited about their team. It's been constant negativity surrounding Embiid & 76ers. It's so exhausting at this point.

[QPR]

Being a perpetual victim.is absolutely exhausting

[Sixteen]

Jokic has got to be one of the most disrespected all time greats ever

No kidding. As far as peak goes, I can only legitimately say that I think MJ, LeBron, and Shaq have been better. There may be another few on the same tier...Hakeem, Kareem, Jokic, Steph, but there's really only 3 players you can say who have peaked higher, definitively.

And you have people arguing that Embiid, or Giannis are better. It makes no sense. 10+ years from now, Jokic's 2020-2025 stretch, imo, is going to be recognized as a top 5 peak ever

who disrespects Jokic? everyone hangs on his nuts on this board, and rightfully so. He's a generational talent.

[Sixteen]

Being a perpetual victim.is absolutely exhausting

not as exhausting as being a hater

[JustBuzzin]

Simons could be a really great 6th man for a contender.

[iggymcfrack]

No, obviously no one wants that. What people want is for Embiid to play in the big games against tough opponents if he wants to win the MVP. So far, the Sixers have had 9 road games against playoff teams. Embiid’s played 3 of them. 3 out of 9 doesn’t give you full credit. Especially when Jokic, SGA, and Giannis have played in 123 out of 127 possible games over the course of the season.

Embiid stans wanna act like there’s some huge gap when healthy that makes up for him missing the majority of the Sixers’ tough games, but it’s just not true. Jokic leads in BPM by a decent margin. WS/48 is a virtual 3-way tie. If you look at cumulative stats, Embiid is 3rd in VORP and ranks closer to 17th than 1st. He’s 4th in WS and ranks closer to 18th than 1st. He’s 4th in EPM EW. He’s much closer to being tied with Jokic and SGA on a per minute basis than he is to being tied with them once you account for him missing 26% of the season.

To add to this, check out https://craftednba.com/player-traits/king

In addition to the stats you mentioned, this website crafts an impact metric based on a variety of different impact metrics. Jokic clears.

You gotta give those two Philly fans credit though. Despite the playoffs going the way the did last year, and despite Embiid's reputation being worse than ever, and despite Jokic being better in impact metrics scores the board this year, they still insist Embiid is the better player. That's commitment in the face of truth.

which two Philly fans would say Embiid is better? This isn't even about who is better anymore. it's the fact that Embiid gets dragged for the same thing Jokic gets praised for.

There are 3 main things that Embiid gets “dragged for”:

1. Choking in the playoffs- Jokic is coming off a Finals MVP where he dominated the entire playoffs.

2. Missing tons of games, especially against tough competition- Jokic has only missed one game this season.

3. Foul baiting- Jokic has the fewest FT attempts per game of any top 15 scorer.

Jokic is literally the opposite of Embiid in every one of his worst traits that he gets criticized for.

[Sixteen]

To add to this, check out https://craftednba.com/player-traits/king

In addition to the stats you mentioned, this website crafts an impact metric based on a variety of different impact metrics. Jokic clears.

You gotta give those two Philly fans credit though. Despite the playoffs going the way the did last year, and despite Embiid's reputation being worse than ever, and despite Jokic being better in impact metrics scores the board this year, they still insist Embiid is the better player. That's commitment in the face of truth.

which two Philly fans would say Embiid is better? This isn't even about who is better anymore. it's the fact that Embiid gets dragged for the same thing Jokic gets praised for.

There are 3 main things that Embiid gets “dragged for”:

1. Choking in the playoffs- Jokic is coming off a Finals MVP where he dominated the entire playoffs.

2. Missing tons of games, especially against tough competition- Jokic has only missed one game this season.

3. Foul baiting- Jokic has the fewest FT attempts per game of any top 15 scorer.

Jokic is literally the opposite of Embiid in every one of his worst traits that he gets criticized for.

is Embiid the only superstar that hasn't broke through and won a championship in history? Hell, he isn't even the only superstar right now. And are we watching the same game? the majority of Embiid's FTs are from legitimate basketball moves. You can say that calls are soft but that's more on the refs/league, no?

[MrBigShot]

Jokic has got to be one of the most disrespected all time greats ever

No kidding. As far as peak goes, I can only legitimately say that I think MJ, LeBron, and Shaq have been better. There may be another few on the same tier...Hakeem, Kareem, Jokic, Steph, but there's really only 3 players you can say who have peaked higher, definitively.

And you have people arguing that Embiid, or Giannis are better. It makes no sense. 10+ years from now, Jokic's 2020-2025 stretch, imo, is going to be recognized as a top 5 peak ever

who disrespects Jokic? everyone hangs on his nuts on this board, and rightfully so. He's a generational talent.

On this board he gets his due, but the (most of) the media has not and probably will not ever recognize how great he really is.

Embiid has a chance this year to get all of the respect/credit he could ever dream of if he performs in the playoffs. This is his dirk 2011 moment, it's now or never.

[eyeatoma]

No kidding. As far as peak goes, I can only legitimately say that I think MJ, LeBron, and Shaq have been better. There may be another few on the same tier...Hakeem, Kareem, Jokic, Steph, but there's really only 3 players you can say who have peaked higher, definitively.

And you have people arguing that Embiid, or Giannis are better. It makes no sense. 10+ years from now, Jokic's 2020-2025 stretch, imo, is going to be recognized as a top 5 peak ever

who disrespects Jokic? everyone hangs on his nuts on this board, and rightfully so. He's a generational talent.

On this board he gets his due, but the media has not and probably will not ever recognize how great he really is.

Embiid has a chance this year to get all of the respect/credit he could ever dream of if he performs in the playoffs. This is his dirk 2011 moment, it's now or never.

Just hope Morey doesnt' squander this opportunity and not go all in at the trade deadline. The rumor that he wants to wait for FA is making me want to vomit. Players that are available now are, Siakim (probably Indy), Paul George (Probably clippers), Harden (lol) and Tobias (vomits)...

[Hobo4President]

which two Philly fans would say Embiid is better? This isn't even about who is better anymore. it's the fact that Embiid gets dragged for the same thing Jokic gets praised for.

There are 3 main things that Embiid gets “dragged for”:

1. Choking in the playoffs- Jokic is coming off a Finals MVP where he dominated the entire playoffs.

2. Missing tons of games, especially against tough competition- Jokic has only missed one game this season.

3. Foul baiting- Jokic has the fewest FT attempts per game of any top 15 scorer.

Jokic is literally the opposite of Embiid in every one of his worst traits that he gets criticized for.

is Embiid the only superstar that hasn't broke through and won a championship in history? Hell, he isn't even the only superstar right now. And are we watching the same game? the majority of Embiid's FTs are from legitimate basketball moves. You can say that calls are soft but that's more on the refs/league, no?

I reckon Embiid get's criticised too much but answers to your question;

1. He's not but the guys who aren't criticised as much as Embiid for the playoffs are guys who are usually rated lower than him and are either younger than him (Tatum, Shai), have played really well in the playoffs (Luka), or are simply the oldguard that are past their prime. Yes Embiid has had a lot of injuries in the post-season and it seems people ignore that for the most part, but if he can't stay healthy in the playoffs that's a bad thing. Hopefully he's injury free this year and we can see what he can do when healthy, however if he's healthy and underperforms I think fans will be more viscious than ever considering how he's playing this season.

2. People hate players they perceive to get a favourable whistle, whether it's just a soft whistle or foul hunting. Harden is the prime example, basically every non-Houston fan absolutely hated him.

[Wolfgang630]

who disrespects Jokic? everyone hangs on his nuts on this board, and rightfully so. He's a generational talent.

On this board he gets his due, but the media has not and probably will not ever recognize how great he really is.

Embiid has a chance this year to get all of the respect/credit he could ever dream of if he performs in the playoffs. This is his dirk 2011 moment, it's now or never.

Just hope Morey doesnt' squander this opportunity and not go all in at the trade deadline. The rumor that he wants to wait for FA is making me want to vomit. Players that are available now are, Siakim (probably Indy), Paul George (Probably clippers), Harden (lol) and Tobias (vomits)...

See you’re ready to blame Morey if Embiid doesn’t win. You always blaming someone else. Come on now

[Mrakar]

Jokic with Embiid signature game. Stomping on awful team while shooting 14 FTs.

[RB34]

Jokic with Embiid signature game. Stomping on awful team while shooting 14 FTs.

Would be interesting to see what the conversation would be like if Joker averaged 12 FTs like Embiid and Giannis. In a numbers comparison.

[eyeatoma]

On this board he gets his due, but the media has not and probably will not ever recognize how great he really is.

Embiid has a chance this year to get all of the respect/credit he could ever dream of if he performs in the playoffs. This is his dirk 2011 moment, it's now or never.

Just hope Morey doesnt' squander this opportunity and not go all in at the trade deadline. The rumor that he wants to wait for FA is making me want to vomit. Players that are available now are, Siakim (probably Indy), Paul George (Probably clippers), Harden (lol) and Tobias (vomits)...

See you’re ready to blame Morey if Embiid doesn’t win. You always blaming someone else. Come on now

No I'm not, because as constructed this roster is not good enough. Boston is better, Clippers are better, Bucks are debatable. We need one more scorer.

That's common sense, not making excuses for Embiid. Even if Embiid goes off, Maxey has been on and off, and could have more issues in the playoffs.

[One Last Shot]

No kidding. As far as peak goes, I can only legitimately say that I think MJ, LeBron, and Shaq have been better. There may be another few on the same tier...Hakeem, Kareem, Jokic, Steph, but there's really only 3 players you can say who have peaked higher, definitively.

And you have people arguing that Embiid, or Giannis are better. It makes no sense. 10+ years from now, Jokic's 2020-2025 stretch, imo, is going to be recognized as a top 5 peak ever

who disrespects Jokic? everyone hangs on his nuts on this board, and rightfully so. He's a generational talent.

On this board he gets his due, but the (most of) the media has not and probably will not ever recognize how great he really is.

Embiid has a chance this year to get all of the respect/credit he could ever dream of if he performs in the playoffs. This is his dirk 2011 moment, it's now or never.

Now or never? He's 29 dude. Dirk finally won when he's 33. LeBron won a ring when he's almost 36 and his 2nd best player AD is 27 that time. Maxey, Sixers' 2nd best player is just 23. I just want a healthy playoffs for Embiid just for once this playoffs but it seems like he's gunning for his 2nd MVP which I think he will win so let's see about that.

[Hussien Fatal]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Lol once Embiid qualifies this won’t be the case as Embiid has a higher career per than any player in nba history.

It will even highlight the discrepancy between regular season and playoffs:
Playoffs:
1. Nikola Jokić 29.02
2. Michael Jordan*28.60
3. George Mikan* 28.51
4. LeBron James 27.94
5. Anthony Davis 26.56
....
....


....
Joel Embiid 21.62

I thought we were talking about regular season PER??? Funny you had to pivot to that considering Embiid has a higher career PER than Jokic. Stay on topic next time you try to make a point.

[Hussien Fatal]

we'll see

voters aren't dumb..
yeah, he plays mostly against Charlotte and Detroit (and sits out the rest) i'm surprised he isn't averaging 45 and that his team has any losses at all

well, alot can happen in the 2nd half of the season but if things stay about where they are right now, voters aren't voting for a guy who played 10 games less, just because he has a few more ppg. u realize Embiid is like at 40% usage, right?

if Jokic or SGA had that usage rate their numbers would be downright scary
pick and choosing his opponents, resting all the time...that makes it easier to play the games u do play, while foul baiting, stat padding and being force fed literally every other ball (40% is crazy)

voters see that my friend, they know he wouldn't have been able to play at this intensity and usage over 75 games

more and more people are calling for a shift towards totals, I think it makes alot of sense
MVP's have always been about the commulative value of a player to his team, over a regular season - who contributed the most throughout the course of a rs

Embiid needs to be significantly better per game, to overcome 10 or 15% less games and that's just not possible
unless he does something nuts like basically play every game from now on, or miss just a couple and end up playing 70 game

or ofc, Jokic and SGA miss significant time themselves..otherwise it's just not happening


edit: we've been over this in seasons past..players who play 65, or 66, or 68 games - do NOT win MVP
especially if they don't have the best records and have competitors who are producing at the same level but are playing more.

it's really that simple..

You couldn’t be anymore wrong. Embiid should’ve won mvp the two last seasons playing 66 games and 68 games. Right now he’s played significantly less games than Jokic but the odds are still in embiids favor to win MVP.

And I’m sorry but Embiid is probably the only player in the league that warrants a usage rate as high as his own. He scores more than a POINT PER MINUTE. When Jokic or SGA can score at that type of level get back to be about the usage argument.

You can say “it’s as simple as that” all you want but Embiid has been significantly better than Jokic and Sga this season. So far this season he’s beaten the Nuggets, the Celtics, the Timberwolves and the Thunder all of these teams have a top 7 record in the league. I also find it ridiculous that you knock him for playing teams that are on the schedule, what do you want him to do? Rest when the Sixers play a crap team? Why? Doesn’t make any sense especially when Jokic and SGA suit up to play crap teams as well.

But bottom line is your wrong and your gonna be in for a big surprise when Embiid plays 65 games and easily wins MVP over guys playing 10+ games more than Embiid.

No, obviously no one wants that. What people want is for Embiid to play in the big games against tough opponents if he wants to win the MVP. So far, the Sixers have had 9 road games against playoff teams. Embiid’s played 3 of them. 3 out of 9 doesn’t give you full credit. Especially when Jokic, SGA, and Giannis have played in 123 out of 127 possible games over the course of the season.

Embiid stans wanna act like there’s some huge gap when healthy that makes up for him missing the majority of the Sixers’ tough games, but it’s just not true. Jokic leads in BPM by a decent margin. WS/48 is a virtual 3-way tie. If you look at cumulative stats, Embiid is 3rd in VORP and ranks closer to 17th than 1st. He’s 4th in WS and ranks closer to 18th than 1st. He’s 4th in EPM EW. He’s much closer to being tied with Jokic and SGA on a per minute basis than he is to being tied with them once you account for him missing 26% of the season.

What are you talking about? 1st off Embiid has played through multiple serious injuries in the playoffs which are the most meaningful games. Also he’s beaten the Nuggets, the Celtics, The Thunder and dropped a 50 bomb on the timberwolves all this season. These are big games that he suited up and showed out for, not to mention the Sixers are 25-6 when he plays which would be the #1 winning percentage in the league.

Embiid has been SIGNIFICANTLY better than Jokic and SGA or any NBA player this season. He has a PER of 34.4 HALF WAY THROUGH THE SEASON. Not to mention he’s 1st in scoring and ws/48.

In the 31 games he’s played this season he’s been by far the best NBA player this season despite what you say.

[iggymcfrack]

You couldn’t be anymore wrong. Embiid should’ve won mvp the two last seasons playing 66 games and 68 games. Right now he’s played significantly less games than Jokic but the odds are still in embiids favor to win MVP.

And I’m sorry but Embiid is probably the only player in the league that warrants a usage rate as high as his own. He scores more than a POINT PER MINUTE. When Jokic or SGA can score at that type of level get back to be about the usage argument.

You can say “it’s as simple as that” all you want but Embiid has been significantly better than Jokic and Sga this season. So far this season he’s beaten the Nuggets, the Celtics, the Timberwolves and the Thunder all of these teams have a top 7 record in the league. I also find it ridiculous that you knock him for playing teams that are on the schedule, what do you want him to do? Rest when the Sixers play a crap team? Why? Doesn’t make any sense especially when Jokic and SGA suit up to play crap teams as well.

But bottom line is your wrong and your gonna be in for a big surprise when Embiid plays 65 games and easily wins MVP over guys playing 10+ games more than Embiid.

No, obviously no one wants that. What people want is for Embiid to play in the big games against tough opponents if he wants to win the MVP. So far, the Sixers have had 9 road games against playoff teams. Embiid’s played 3 of them. 3 out of 9 doesn’t give you full credit. Especially when Jokic, SGA, and Giannis have played in 123 out of 127 possible games over the course of the season.

Embiid stans wanna act like there’s some huge gap when healthy that makes up for him missing the majority of the Sixers’ tough games, but it’s just not true. Jokic leads in BPM by a decent margin. WS/48 is a virtual 3-way tie. If you look at cumulative stats, Embiid is 3rd in VORP and ranks closer to 17th than 1st. He’s 4th in WS and ranks closer to 18th than 1st. He’s 4th in EPM EW. He’s much closer to being tied with Jokic and SGA on a per minute basis than he is to being tied with them once you account for him missing 26% of the season.

What are you talking about? 1st off Embiid has played through multiple serious injuries in the playoffs which are the most meaningful games. Also he’s beaten the Nuggets, the Celtics, The Thunder and dropped a 50 bomb on the timberwolves all this season. These are big games that he suited up and showed out for, not to mention the Sixers are 25-6 when he plays which would be the #1 winning percentage in the league.

Embiid has been SIGNIFICANTLY better than Jokic and SGA or any NBA player this season. He has a PER of 34.4 HALF WAY THROUGH THE SEASON. Not to mention he’s 1st in scoring and ws/48.

In the 31 games he’s played this season he’s been by far the best NBA player this season despite what you say.

Embiid's record just looks impressive because he's missed so many of the difficult contests. Like I said he's sat out 6 of 9 road games against playoff teams. If we eliminate all road games against playoff teams, here are the records for each MVP candidate:

Jokic: 25-4
Embiid: 23-5
SGA: 22-5
Giannis: 25-6

And PER's the only stat he dominates. As mentioned further up, Jokic actually has the best combination of advanced stats even on a rate basis:
https://craftednba.com/player-traits/king

On a per game basis, SGA, Jokic, and Embiid are roughly equal with Giannis a little bit behind. When you account for Embiid missing more than twice as many games as the other 3 guys combined, it's more like SGA and Jokic in Tier 1 and Embiid and Giannis in Tier 2.