2023-2024 Regular Season Game 44: Cleveland Cavaliers (25-15) at Orlando Magic (23-20) - 7pm

[The-Stallion70]

Wendell is showing out right now for two reasons:

1. He's healthy and fresh after sitting for a while
2. He's feeling the high of knowing the Magic are shopping him.

He's a good player but the Magic need help in other areas more

**** this hurts losing like this after the Miami win. Why the hell can't we put a consistent good team on the floor. Paolo and Franz need help but it's not like they're prime Jordan and Pippen. We may not have our no. 1 guy yet.

[tiderulz]

Only question i ask myself after this game is can we get Garland (or Mitchell).
Long term i wonder if Howard can replace Suggs as a starter. I love Suggs, but we would need a bucket like Donovan next to him and even Donovan looks better with shooter.... tough choices before FO.

or, i wonder what Suggs would look like with a legit PG there to run the offense and he wouldnt have to fill that role

[VFX]

Oh wow Ben & Knightro really going at it.

From what i saw, you can make argument that both of you are right tho.

Your offense should be some sort of combination of plays called and players being smart enough to react on defensive mistakes, no matter what coach/captain/playmaker called.
Problem in nba, way more than in other sports is schedule and roster changes and lot of injuries. That makes having good, well trained set actions hard and minimalistic. Many teams don't change rosters over years just to have that sort of mechanism installed ( like Spurs with Duncan, Lakers with Shaq & Kobe etc ). Where players know what they should be doing 95% of time.

This is probably why pick&roll turned into bread & butter. It's simplistic, it's something most teams & players are used to doing whole their lifes, so learning curve is minimal.


You see teams change approach when playoffs roll because they have enough time to sit down and actually scout opponents, seek their weaknesses, enter a gym and work on gameplan how to exploit it.
But in regular season you simply don't have time, personell, nor enough practice for any of it.

Yes, in theory, you want Wendell to make 2 threes in first quater so Allen can move his gigantic a** from rim so Paolo can on other side exploit pick&roll with somebody with Wagner cutting from other side, basically having 4 v 4 without big, with our big boys attacking Cavs midgets. Great.

BUT, we played game before within 24 hours, they went to sleep for 8 hours, woke up, had some sort of rehab running, had breakfest, had lunch, went through streaching and got SOME info about next opponent. And it was probably mentioned that it would be good to drag Allen out of paint either through Wendell making shots or through forcing switches & missmatches. But talking about it, and making it work are two different things.
Cavs are also- nba team. They also are doing their scouting, they know what to do if Allen is out on perimeter, it's not like they will just let you roll them over. They will counter with Okoro switching onto anybody making life harder, making plays slower etc.



And some of you simply severely overrate Goga in general.
He is 7 footer who is good when he rolls at rim, as most bigs are, who are 250 pounds, mostly because nowdays other bigs in non playoff games -just move away. ( just ask yourself what happened to in-face-dunks on bigs on other bigs ?) .

He is slowfooted and can't shoot. So by default he is around rim on both ends. In some games it workes fine, in some games it's awful ( Kings & Hawks game)
Kings were way too fast for him, Sabonis did whatever he wanted.
Hawks game, whenever he was dragged out of paint, either Trae or Murray were beating him off a dribble and finishing or throwing lobs at their Cs. Capela 6-6 FG, Okongwgu 7-12 FG. You won't win many games when you allow opposing Cs to make 13 shots on 73% FG.
He can't defend pick&roll at all, but most teams don't exploit it, he also often doesn't even put hands in the air when he defends in drop. He gets blocks because he is lenghty and isn't THAT unathletic as he looks. But in general he is backup/third string C and nothing more.

We’ve been content with our center(s) but furiously debate how critical it is for our missing PG target to be defensive-minded. Given our forward tandem, I’d say it’s a more sensible priority to chase an excellent defensive big man like Claxton than to worry too much about having two elite defending guards at the expense of scoring & floor spreading. Obviously, having guards that score AND defend at a high level is optimal…but tell me who they are. Quickley would have been one. Murray is- but not an elite shooter. Brogdon is solid on both ends, but older.

My point is…Wendell’s good. Goga’s good. But neither is very good- particularly with Mosley’s dream vision in mind. If we got a REAL fearsome defensive Center, a score first Lead Guard would be sufficient. Gafford’s not elite, but he fits the profile and could likely be obtained. Claxton is the best available and we should be fishing for info about his FA plans already (and consider trading for him if we should- like Siakim to IND-he’s staying). “We can just sign him as a UFA” is not realistically how the NBA works anymore.

I think what people miss a lot of the time with this argument, and the one Knightro and Ben are having, is that you don’t necessarily need your center to do much out there. If Mosely isn’t “game planning” or setting up plays to run with Carter, he sees a lot of shots that he likes regardless of if they make sense.

As I’ve watched Carter I’ve come to the conclusion that he does too much for my liking, especially on the offensive side of the floor. Sorry, but you aren’t going to win many games when he takes away possessions from Franz/Paolo and whoever can hit shots against a hot shooting team.

There is no chance Wendell’s contract is smaller than whatever Goga is worth AND he’s on a valuable deal on top of it should they move him. I like Carter because he provides pretty good defense next to Paolo. It’s on offense where he doesn’t really fit. This was kinda the issue with drafting Paolo Banchero and expecting him to be the hub of the offense. You gotta go out and find a low usage Center that can compliment him and ideally you have the guards that can make use of those possessions he takes away.

[zaymon]

I think we need more a low usage center who can protect the paint and 3 point shooting is a bonus. Ideal is someone like Chet or Porzingis who do both. WCJ is in the middle of both. He also likes to score on putbacks but doesnt have the footwork or size.
Lets also remember our guards are really bad involving big man. Only guy who can do that consistently is Ingles, but he is not even a guard.
Logical thing to do would be getting a semicompetent point guard first and making a decision on Wendell second. I believe we will do that and Carter talk is setting ground for future... unless we trade for Claxton.

[Skybox]

EXACTLY how I feel about our Center spot...

WCJ is almost "too good" for this frontcourt. We don't really need his exceptional versatility as much as we could benefit from a specialist...WCJ, on another team, might really do well.

Claxton is the archetype of what we need...an elite rim-protector and switchable defender who fights on D. He could anchor our defensive scheme and allow Mose's aggressive guard play to be even more effective. Right now, if, by the grace of God, you get by Suggs...it's smooth sailing to the basket. Claxton might make $20m+ per year as a desirable FA - that's a little scary financially - but that's what Jarrett Allen gets. I started looking at Gafford as, maybe, a lesser version of Claxton and, on paper, he matches up really well...Gafford is under contract and is on WAS - so, by definition, he's available. I just posted a trade idea for Gafford and Tyus that makes sense for both teams, IMO.

[pepe1991]

You aren't solving anything with $25M of defensive center who only catches lobs and creates no spacing.

Your main problem is incompetent guard play, and no playmaking from backcourt.
Watching Suggs & Black as "guards" pretending to do something would be comical, if it's not tragic.
They have no clue what they should be doing. Just give up ball to Franz or Paolo and move away.

Percentile of pick&roll plays by our guards:
Fultz 54th
Suggs 21
Black 20
Anthony 32

It's impossible to play offense in fashion where guards are apsolutley worthless with ball in their hands. You think Claxton would solve any of it?


Cs like him are created by point guards.
Why Claxton's efficiency went from near 70% TS to 65%? Well that's fall from Kyrie to Spance Diwiddie.
Why Deandre Jordan had career in first place? Because CP3.
Why Capela was overpayed? Because it was Harden, not some average joe who was dumping ball to him.



Get a point guard. Asap. Than do cosmetic changes.

[UCFJayBird]

I was in Orlando and my work plans got cancelled so I was able to attend the game. I regret that decision, lol.

Dumb rant about the guys I got sat next to:

Spoiler:

So i get to my seat about 7-8 minutes before tip, my seat is next to someone already seated and I basically have to ask him to move his leg so I can sit in my seat. I look back and there's no one else in our row yet (i'm dead center in the row). So after a few minutes into the game I move over one seat. Cut to the end of the quarter and two guys show up and say i'm in their seat (mind you there's not a single person in the 8 seats to the aisle). So I move over and we're all crammed in. A few minutes later the guy makes a remark about us being bigger guys and him and his buddy move down....one seat, lol. At halftime I got up and when I came back I sat at the end of the aisle where no one was.

Back to the game. Team just lacked any focus and control from the jump. I've never seen so many guys pick up their dribble in traffic or jump into the air with zero idea where they're going with the ball next. So many careless turnovers in this game. Cleveland obviously shot the lights out. Every player on their team played like Steph in his prime, but it didn't help that they were also getting wide open looks because the team wasn't communicating effectively.

I've never thought WCJ is a good center (i've never been a fan of his game overall tbh), and he's certainly not a good fit for this starting lineup. He's a PF that's being forced to play center, and this team performs better as a cohesive unit when we have a real center like Goga in there. Maybe they should experiment with Suggs at PG, Franz at SG, Paolo and WCJ as the Forwards, and Goga at Center. Let Suggs and Franz share duties bringing the ball up the court and setting up the offense. Or start Goga and send WCJ back to the bench, or trade him.

[Fortune Teller]

Paolo has to be tired of watching Isaac, Fultz, WCJ and Gary Harris yo-yo in and out of the lineup when they're not missing long stretches of games. Meanwhile he's grinding every night with whoever is available to fill in for them. Eventually his patience will wear thin, even if Weltman's never does.

[drsd]

He's (Carter) a PF that's being forced to play center, .....

I would add that Carter is on record that he sees himself as a PF and would rather have that role in the NBA.

[VFX]

You aren't solving anything with $25M of defensive center who only catches lobs and creates no spacing.

Your main problem is incompetent guard play, and no playmaking from backcourt.
Watching Suggs & Black as "guards" pretending to do something would be comical, if it's not tragic.
They have no clue what they should be doing. Just give up ball to Franz or Paolo and move away.

Percentile of pick&roll plays by our guards:
Fultz 54th
Suggs 21
Black 20
Anthony 32

It's impossible to play offense in fashion where guards are apsolutley worthless with ball in their hands. You think Claxton would solve any of it?


Cs like him are created by point guards.
Why Claxton's efficiency went from near 70% TS to 65%? Well that's fall from Kyrie to Spance Diwiddie.
Why Deandre Jordan had career in first place? Because CP3.
Why Capela was overpayed? Because it was Harden, not some average joe who was dumping ball to him.



Get a point guard. Asap. Than do cosmetic changes.

Well yes, but that’s a different situation entirely.

The Magic need a point guard that can run an offense. Cole and Paolo got stripped multiple times last night pretending to do just that with lack thereof.

Carter has the green light because of that problem. However, even if Orlando solved the guard issue I’m not thrilled with him being a main point of the offense.

[Bergmaniac]

I knew I should have put money on the Cavs, they have had our number lately and have been on a roll this month, we were on a second night of a back to back after a big win and Isaac was out (our record withoit Isaac is 7-11). And the Cavs are built to give us trouble, Allen is the type of rim protector our offense always struggle against and they have an excellent tough shotmaker and ballhandler in Mitchell and a bunch of shooters to take advantage of the looks he creates for them.

I didn't expect such a beatdown though, it was pretty embarassing. A dumb turnover by us on offense followed by giving up a wide open 3 on the other end, time and time again. A game to forget.

[Knightro]

Posting this again, maybe you’ll actually understand it on the 3rd read…

I’ll explain it for you since you can’t be relied on to correctly interpret this. There are 3 parts to it:

1. I blame Mosley for setting the gameplan
2. It was a gameplan that RESULTED in Wendell as the 2nd highest shot taker at half time on a team with Paolo, Franz, Suggs and Cole on it.
3. Wendell was going against an elite defender and primarily trying to score inside.

Now to further clarify point 2: I’m not saying the gameplan was for Wendell to be a top 2 scorer. I’m saying the gameplan failed and that’s what occurred as a result.

This is just goofy stuff man.

You can't just look at the box score and declare the gameplan was a failure based on how the shot attempts ended up getting dispersed while blatantly ignoring the context of how the game actually flowed and how those shot attempts actually came about.

A lot of this stuff is just a lot more random and happenstance than you seem to understand.

Wendell isn't a particularly good offensive rebounder because he's usually away from the basket offensively. He averages less than 2 OREB per game. But last night he happened to be in position and happened to get the right bounce of the ball off the rim to get 2 offensive rebounds in the first 4 minutes of the game.

That has literally nothing to do with any sort of "gameplan" - the shooters happened to miss and the ball happened to bounced to him and once he secured the OREB, he decided put up shots with two feet in the paint because he's over 82% on shots from 0-3 feet.

Wendell from 0-3 feet is quite literally from a statistical standpoint one of the best, if not the single best shot, the Magic could generate in a given possession.

But shame on Mosley for not demanding Wendell kick it back out. Shame on Mosley for having "Cole and Black decide to dump the ball to Carter with 4 seconds left on the shot clock forcing him to take two desperation shots" in his gameplan for the night. That bastard!

It's just really silly to ignore how the game is actually flowing and just making cold judgements based on the box score.

[Bergmaniac]

We had a defensive rating of 150.7 in the 3 non-garbage time quarters, why are you even arguing for page after page about the possible shortcomings in the offensive gameplan? We were going to get beaten badly no matter when we defend like this and the other team is this hot.

[eyriq]

EXACTLY how I feel about our Center spot...

WCJ is almost "too good" for this frontcourt. We don't really need his exceptional versatility as much as we could benefit from a specialist...WCJ, on another team, might really do well.

Claxton is the archetype of what we need...an elite rim-protector and switchable defender who fights on D. He could anchor our defensive scheme and allow Mose's aggressive guard play to be even more effective. Right now, if, by the grace of God, you get by Suggs...it's smooth sailing to the basket. Claxton might make $20m+ per year as a desirable FA - that's a little scary financially - but that's what Jarrett Allen gets. I started looking at Gafford as, maybe, a lesser version of Claxton and, on paper, he matches up really well...Gafford is under contract and is on WAS - so, by definition, he's available. I just posted a trade idea for Gafford and Tyus that makes sense for both teams, IMO.

Claxton is the perfect fit for this front court!

[basketballRob]

I knew I should have put money on the Cavs, they have had our number lately and have been on a roll this month, we were on a second night of a back to back after a big win and Isaac was out (our record withoit Isaac is 7-11). And the Cavs are built to give us trouble, Allen is the type of rim protector our offense always struggle against and they have an excellent tough shotmaker and ballhandler in Mitchell and a bunch of shooters to take advantage of the looks he creates for them.

I didn't expect such a beatdown though, it was pretty embarassing. A dumb turnover by us on offense followed by giving up a wide open 3 on the other end, time and time again. A game to forget.

We're 3-19 in b2bs the last two seasons.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[JoshuaPotter]

Our back to back record is a problem.

It's also safe to say, that due to injuries and player load management our back to backs are more or less different teams. This can't be good for unit cohesion and chemistry. Even if the end result was the same record.

Congrats to Cav for trouncing us while they are well rested. This is the NBA and the season is a marathon and not a sprint. It's OK. I just would like to see when avid fans here on the forum get to go to their rare game they get rewarded with at least a competitive game.

I do think we are a much better team then our product on the floor was. So I am not sure entirely what to make of this game other then "youth". Mosely I do not think is a good coach to guide players through back to backs either. He is good at a lot of things, but not that.

Right now due to our youth, the way we play has to be exhausting to even our fresh legs. This might be something where the same core +- different pieces get rolled out next year and we play the exact same scenario and do well mostly because we slow down the game efficiently vs lights out 110% effort.

[JoshuaPotter]

I knew I should have put money on the Cavs, they have had our number lately and have been on a roll this month, we were on a second night of a back to back after a big win and Isaac was out (our record withoit Isaac is 7-11). And the Cavs are built to give us trouble, Allen is the type of rim protector our offense always struggle against and they have an excellent tough shotmaker and ballhandler in Mitchell and a bunch of shooters to take advantage of the looks he creates for them.

I didn't expect such a beatdown though, it was pretty embarassing. A dumb turnover by us on offense followed by giving up a wide open 3 on the other end, time and time again. A game to forget.

We're 3-19 in b2bs the last two seasons.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Bravo, this is what I suspected.
- Youth
- Inconsistent roster
- Lack of veterans
- Coach

Are my key factors as to why this is such a problem.

[Bergmaniac]

Youth should be a positive for second games of back to backs IMO. The way we play is exhausting, sure, but that's Mosley's design, not something inevitable with a young roster. We don't have enough offensive talent so we need to really hustle on D every game ot be competitive. OKC are really young too but they are 4-2 on back to backs this year afte being 5-8 last year and the explanation is simple, they have more offensive talent so they can win even when they can't give 100% effort on D.

[eyriq]

Tear this one up and throw it out.

Learnings:
- We are financially over indexed in injury prone players and lineup discontinuity is exacerbated and is a huge problem
- Doghouse members are Cole, Houstan, Okeke, and Suggs (Not worried about Suggs)
- Paolo is tanking his all-star bid
- Moe, Goga, and AB played decent. Moves could be made with the intention of fixing their spots in the rotation

[Skybox]

He's (Carter) a PF that's being forced to play center, .....

I would add that Carter is on record that he sees himself as a PF and would rather have that role in the NBA.

he'd be great next to Chet. Next to JJJ. Next to Mobley (give us Allen). Next to Wemby...