How did John Stockton get so many assists?5

[McBubbles]

I've been trying to find an answer for this to no avail. You can look at minutes played, pace, assists per 75 or assist percentage, it don't matter, he at his peak racked up way more than anyone else.

I don't think he was any more ball dominant than Nash, Magic, CP3, Rondo etc, and it's not like he was creating extra assists due to superior passing vision to his historical peers (I actually think his is worse). It's not like having Malone as a teammate gives him an unfair advantage over the likes of CP3 with, DJ and Griffin, or Nash with Stoudamire and Marion, or Magic with Kareem.

So what gives? How did Stockton rack up nearly 15 APG at his peak? Been watching him play for the few minutes and still can't figure it out.

[tsherkin]

1) He was very good
2) He barely shot at all
3) Karl Malone
4) Jerry Sloan's system (this is a big one)

[SHAQ32]

A grand conspiracy orchestrated by the scorer's table/statistician

[penbeast0]

A grand conspiracy orchestrated by the scorer's table/statistician

Someone ran those numbers for home/away and if I am remembering correctly, it wasn't Stockton who got a ton of homer bonus assists, it was actually Magic.

One other point not mentioned (and I lean heavily to he was really good as the main reason), he played a lot of minutes very consistently.

[tsherkin]

A grand conspiracy orchestrated by the scorer's table/statistician

Someone ran those numbers for home/away and if I am remembering correctly, it wasn't Stockton who got a ton of homer bonus assists, it was actually Magic.

One other point not mentioned (and I lean heavily to he was really good as the main reason), he played a lot of minutes very consistently.

I recall exactly the opposite of this.

[AEnigma]

I do not think Stockton was a unique beneficiary, but I do think scorekeepers were comparatively more generous for most of his career.

He would be the career assists leader regardless.

[tsherkin]

I do not think Stockton was a unique beneficiary, but I do think scorekeepers were comparatively more generous for most of his career.

He would be the career assists leader regardless.

I'm with that. His talent, Sloan's system and his general approach and longevity were the biggest contributors (in no particular order).

[penbeast0]

A grand conspiracy orchestrated by the scorer's table/statistician

Someone ran those numbers for home/away and if I am remembering correctly, it wasn't Stockton who got a ton of homer bonus assists, it was actually Magic.

One other point not mentioned (and I lean heavily to he was really good as the main reason), he played a lot of minutes very consistently.

I recall exactly the opposite of this.

I'm looking for it.

Stat Muse has Stockton with 10.9 home/10.1 away, Magic with 12.2 home, 11.6 away but Magic averaged 3.3 more minutes a game on the road as well where Stockton's minutes difference was only 0.7 so the difference is starker than the 1st number.

The outlier at the other end I remember was Steve Nash. When I loot at him, he indeed did have more assists on the road (8.7 to 8.4 in 0.5 more minutes).

[tsherkin]

Someone ran those numbers for home/away and if I am remembering correctly, it wasn't Stockton who got a ton of homer bonus assists, it was actually Magic.

One other point not mentioned (and I lean heavily to he was really good as the main reason), he played a lot of minutes very consistently.

I recall exactly the opposite of this.

I'm looking for it.

Stat Muse has Stockton with 10.9 home/10.1 away, Magic with 12.2 home, 11.6 away but Magic averaged 3.3 more minutes a game on the road as well where Stockton's minutes difference was only 0.7 so the difference is starker than the 1st number.

The outlier at the other end I remember was Steve Nash. When I loot at him, he indeed did have more assists on the road (8.7 to 8.4 in 0.5 more minutes).

I eagerly await the result, because memory is unreliable, for sure. I like that you're looking at MPG and other variables, though!

[pancakes3]

Stockton's splits in home/away is like +0.75 at home, so there's a degree of home cooking but not enough to really explain how he's peaking at 18-19 assists/100 possessions when Magic/Nash were at 17ish, Rondo/Paul/Zeke were at 16ish, and Kidd at 14ish.

[tsherkin]

Stockton's splits in home/away is like +0.75 at home, so there's a degree of home cooking but not enough to really explain how he's peaking at 18-19 assists/100 possessions when Magic/Nash were at 17ish, Rondo/Paul/Zeke were at 16ish, and Kidd at 14ish.

Look at his FGA/g. He Rondo'd it hard, shooting way less, passing a lot more. It shouldn't be a huge surprise.

[penbeast0]

I do not think Stockton was a unique beneficiary, but I do think scorekeepers were comparatively more generous for most of his career.

He would be the career assists leader regardless.

More generous than the 60s sure, more than the 80s? The 2010's?

DoctorMJ,
And, question for all the NBA historians here....

What year did the assist rules change in the NBA, and why?

Assist % leaders 1964-1965 (first year of tracking) through 1973-1974:



1980-1989:



2014-2015 through 2023-2024:



Oscar Robertson would not be in the top 20 the last 10 years, yet he led in assist % during his actual career (last 10 years of it, also).

Something drastic changed.

[Owly]

1) He was very good
2) He barely shot at all
3) Karl Malone
4) Jerry Sloan's system (this is a big one)

On 4 ... I do see this widely posited and I'm not saying it's wrong and it could be semantics if it's the same thing but ... the question regarded peak and assists near 15. Obviously the pace and scoring efficiency at that time is part of the raw count ... but if 1990's 14.5apg is driven by an underlying 19.4 assists per 100 possessions ... '88 under Layden is at 18.8 (not far often and one decimal place off tied second for his career.

Now if "Sloan's system" is the same as, or (very?) close to Layden's then perhaps the point is moot.

[tsherkin]

On 4 ... I do see this widely posited and I'm not saying it's wrong and it could be semantics if it's the same thing but ... the question regarded peak and assists near 15. Obviously the pace and scoring efficiency at that time is part of the raw count ... but if 1990's 14.5apg is driven by an underlying 19.4 assists per 100 possessions ... '88 under Layden is at 18.8 (not far often and one decimal place off tied second for his career.

Now if "Sloan's system" is the same as, or (very?) close to Layden's then perhaps the point is moot.

Yeah, it's a fair point. Ultimately, they arranged things in Utah a given way, where Stockton shot very little and moved the ball a lot, which was the same in that broad stroke under both Layden and Sloan. Stockton only had one season starting under Layden, but he broke out in a huge way when he did. Ultimately, Utah set up shooters and they had Malone, and they had Stockton not pressing as a scorer. That's really what I was discussing, ultimately.

[picko]

Stockton's home vs away APG gap is no different to Magic Johnson, smaller than Jason Kidd's and a little larger than Chris Paul's.

If you use Stockton's road APG - 10.1 per game - and apply it to his entire career you end up with 15,244 assists. Only 562 below what he currently has. In other words, not a big reason for his success.

The high assist numbers for an individual season are partly due to ability and Sloan's system. The huge career numbers also factor in exceptional longevity. Stockton was still putting up big numbers in his final season and he just never missed games.

What's really remarkable about Stockton is that he didn't start posting massive assist numbers or regularly starting until he was 25. He is ranked 57th all-time for assists by your 25th birthday. His relative slow start is one of the few reasons why his career record may be breakable even if nobody comes close to his season marks.

[Owly]

Stockton's splits in home/away is like +0.75 at home, so there's a degree of home cooking but not enough to really explain how he's peaking at 18-19 assists/100 possessions when Magic/Nash were at 17ish, Rondo/Paul/Zeke were at 16ish, and Kidd at 14ish.

That isn't really necessarily the case. At least assuming you're talking apg (or another variant that doesn't account for scoring more at home).
Most players will have more assists at home as most teams score more at home. There are exceptions (Nash has been noted here). Something like % of team points assisted (whilst on court) might give one a more neutral tipping point. Otherwise you just have to know that more at home is very much the norm.

[AEnigma]

I do not think Stockton was a unique beneficiary, but I do think scorekeepers were comparatively more generous for most of his career.

He would be the career assists leader regardless.

More generous than the 60s sure, more than the 80s? The 2010's?

Oscar Robertson would not be in the top 20 the last 10 years, yet he led in assist % during his actual career (last 10 years of it, also).

Something drastic changed.

Why would we be looking at assist percentage to measure assist production?

Westbrook in that listed period averages 13 assists per 100 possessions, as does Trae. Magic in that listed period averaged 14 assists per 100 possessions, yet those charts imply Magic was somehow operating at a deficit.

The 2010s are not more generous with assists, on average or relative to made field goals, and I do not see much to suggest they are skewed to “star assists” either.

[Dr Positivity]

Stockton entry passing is possibly under-appreciated as freakish/GOAT

[Owly]

Stockton's home vs away APG gap is no different to Magic Johnson, smaller than Jason Kidd's and a little larger than Chris Paul's.

If you use Stockton's road APG - 10.1 per game - and apply it to his entire career you end up with 15,244 assists. Only 562 below what he currently has. In other words, not a big reason for his success.

The high assist numbers for an individual season are partly due to ability and Sloan's system. The huge career numbers also factor in exceptional longevity. Stockton was still putting up big numbers in his final season and he just never missed games.

What's really remarkable about Stockton is that he didn't start posting massive assist numbers or regularly starting until he was 25. He is ranked 57th all-time for assists by your 25th birthday. His relative slow start is one of the few reasons why his career record may be breakable even if nobody comes close to his season marks.

There's certainly some truth to this though a third related factor to the starting is he's from the era (once the ABA is gone) where I think most players went 4 years and maybe for the most part only exceptional underclassmen products would go in for the draft.

"Breakable" feels optimistic though, you might need a point guard version of LeBron. Good pretty quickly out of the box, plays huge minutes, plays a long time remaining productive. Even then with the 3 (and FT) being more emphasized I think there are less assists per point so the offensive boom hasn't, I wouldn't imagine, led to a commensurate lift in assists.

[tsherkin]

Stockton entry passing is possibly under-appreciated as freakish/GOAT

I would argue that if you wanted to focus on a specific type of pass, his pocket pass is far more interesting.