Julius Randle eat crow thread

[Stannis]

Last time I make a comment on this Brunson Vs Randle crap because I don't want to fuel this idiocy. Brunson does not get a free pass.

Brunson exceeded all expectations when we signed him. He wasn't even getting 20 PPG with Dallas. We weren't even sure if he would become our #1. I honestly thought it would be Randle > RJ > Brunson as our # 3 option. Brunson outplayed them both. And of course, he performed in the playoffs. Made mistakes for sure. But you were just confident when he had the ball and running the offense.

You have to be insane to believe posters would give him a free pass if he shot 30% with 5 TOs in the playoffs.

Randle... his previous years before coming to the Knicks, he was more efficient. I know the bigger role and volume will reduce efficiency. But he's proven to be a liability when he's not shooting well.

So yeah, in a way I am valuing Randle for what he is. But if we want to reduce his minutes in favor of efficiency, that just makes me a Randle hater.

I also think people are clumping terms like "effort" & "hustle" into defense. Nobody is asking Randle to suddenly evolve into a skilled defender. So don't just assume when we call out his effort, we are getting mad because he's not a great defender. It's not the same thing.

Lastly, we should still trade him. Buy low, sell high. That's my motto.

[Stannis]

I don’t ask people to eat crow anymore. That’s mean. Better to let bygones be bygones and put the past behind us. Randle is playing at an all-star level and we have won 10 of last 12 games. Life is good when you open up your heart and accept randle into your life. You don’t even have to scramble and hope the Knicks lose to teams like the pacers and raptors, you can be happy in post game threads when we win games, you don’t need to get the coach fired for retribution and you can actually root for Knicks success, it’s great. I’m not calling you out I’m calling you in!

Hey, I really do appreciate this.

[ohboy109]

He will always be an accident waiting to happen

[j4remi]

Brunson never gets criticized for his lazy plays. Randle's lazy plays are all his detractors talk about. If you can find me a post commenting on any of the times Jalen jogged back on D...which happens regularly...I'll retract my comment. Until then I'll stand by what I said.

I didn't say anything about complaining to refs. Brunson, Randle, and Hart are all guilty of doing that too much.

But that's way too narrow to address "Effort" on the whole, which is why I brought up closeouts. Randle has the most inconsistent effort on rotations and closeouts on the team. Brunson isn't bad at rotations, and his closeouts aren't bad for lack of effort (it's a height/wingspan problem).

I doubt anyone cares if you retract your statement. I just get annoyed at throwing another player under the bus instead of confronting Randle's shortcomings. Randle can be bad on defense, but do so much else that he makes up for it. I'd respect these Randle defenses a lot more if that's the direction they took instead of grasping at straws claiming the league leader in charges drawn is comparably lazy.

It’s not just complaining to refs. Take notes about the kinds of plays that Julius gets yelled at in GDTs, then watch Jalen with an honest eye, and look at how people respond in the GDT when Jalen makes the kinds of lazy decisions Julius does. I think you’ll be surprised by what you find.

It’s not about excusing Randle’s defense, it’s just about judging his defense the same way we judge the defense of other guys with a similar offensive burden. People accept that Siakam’s contributions outweigh his defensive deterioration. They make every excuse imaginable for why Murray’s been a bad defender this decade. But for Julius, he is lambasted for his bad plays, not his net impact.

If there's one safe rule of thumb, it's not taking the game threads too seriously. Everything gets exaggerated, and recency bias rules. But I don't think he gets it any better or worse than everyone else on the team. Actually, I think Josh Hart gets the least credit for his positive impacts and most exaggerated reactions for his mistakes. The newest contract gets the harshest observations or something.

I fully acknowledge that Randle is a net positive on 90% of the nights he plays (with plenty of recap scores on KFTV to support this claim). What I take issue with, is trying to wave Jalen Brunson's effort as proof that Randle's being treated unfairly. That comparison just doesn't work, except for maybe in game threads where everyone's turned up to 11.

[Jeff Van Gully]

no one ever gives him props for the good playoff games he's had. while on one ankle that required surgery.

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i def give him a pass. he was obviously badly hurt. real question seems to be whether or not he should have been out there and to what extent that may have hurt the team.

[cgf]

I didn't say anything about complaining to refs. Brunson, Randle, and Hart are all guilty of doing that too much.

But that's way too narrow to address "Effort" on the whole, which is why I brought up closeouts. Randle has the most inconsistent effort on rotations and closeouts on the team. Brunson isn't bad at rotations, and his closeouts aren't bad for lack of effort (it's a height/wingspan problem).

I doubt anyone cares if you retract your statement. I just get annoyed at throwing another player under the bus instead of confronting Randle's shortcomings. Randle can be bad on defense, but do so much else that he makes up for it. I'd respect these Randle defenses a lot more if that's the direction they took instead of grasping at straws claiming the league leader in charges drawn is comparably lazy.

It’s not just complaining to refs. Take notes about the kinds of plays that Julius gets yelled at in GDTs, then watch Jalen with an honest eye, and look at how people respond in the GDT when Jalen makes the kinds of lazy decisions Julius does. I think you’ll be surprised by what you find.

It’s not about excusing Randle’s defense, it’s just about judging his defense the same way we judge the defense of other guys with a similar offensive burden. People accept that Siakam’s contributions outweigh his defensive deterioration. They make every excuse imaginable for why Murray’s been a bad defender this decade. But for Julius, he is lambasted for his bad plays, not his net impact.

If there's one safe rule of thumb, it's not taking the game threads too seriously. Everything gets exaggerated, and recency bias rules. But I don't think he gets it any better or worse than everyone else on the team. Actually, I think Josh Hart gets the least credit for his positive impacts and most exaggerated reactions for his mistakes. The newest contract gets the harshest observations or something.

I fully acknowledge that Randle is a net positive on 90% of the nights he plays (with plenty of recap scores on KFTV to support this claim). What I take issue with, is trying to wave Jalen Brunson's effort as proof that Randle's being treated unfairly. That comparison just doesn't work, except for maybe in game threads where everyone's turned up to 11.

That's fair, but I think those GDT patterns reflect larger trends for how we treat the two of them. I wasn't saying randle and Brunson's effort level is the same, just pointing out that a lot of what Julius gets skewered for isn't uncommon from guys carrying that kind of offensive burden. And the #s reflect that Randle's defensive impact, despite his "lack of effort", is as good or better than a lot of other lower-level All-NBA guys.

[3toheadmelo]

no one ever gives him props for the good playoff games he's had. while on one ankle that required surgery.

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i def give him a pass. he was obviously badly hurt. real question seems to be whether or not he should have been out there and to what extent that may have hurt the team.

i don't think he should've been out there at all. but randle always tries to play even when hes hurt and thibs allows that every time. at least he gave us some good games so props for him.
it's worth noting though, even with randle's struggles his net rating was still a positive and he had a massive impact on brunson. his gravity makes a massive difference.

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hopefully randle is healthy this time around in the playoffs. if he is healthy and has a bad playoffs (like the atlanta series) then i think it will be time to move on. so we'll see what happens. i think the og trade has made him even a better player and we're even seeing randle close out games which he usually used to suck at. so there's some encouraging signs so far.

[Jeff Van Gully]

no one ever gives him props for the good playoff games he's had. while on one ankle that required surgery.

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i def give him a pass. he was obviously badly hurt. real question seems to be whether or not he should have been out there and to what extent that may have hurt the team.

i don't think he should've been out there at all. but randle always tries to play even when hes hurt and thibs allows that every time. at least he gave us some good games so props for him.
it's worth noting though, even with randle's struggles his net rating was still a positive and he had a massive impact on brunson. his gravity makes a massive difference.

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hopefully randle is healthy this time around in the playoffs. if he is healthy and has a bad playoffs (like the atlanta series) then i think it will be time to move on. so we'll see what happens. i think the og trade has made him even a better player and we're even seeing randle close out games which he usually used to suck at. so there's some encouraging signs so far.

agreed on all counts. hoping he makes it to the postseason healthy and can play at the level he does. it's not like he's a non-factor in how good we are. i don't think it's fair to look at him more as a rate limiter than an accelerator. maybe there are better players, but not many. it's just those shortcomings are so critical, obvious, and hard to watch.

yeah. i'm a thibs fan. and i completely accept the criticism that he will let you die for him. and that's a toxic trait with deep, broad implications i won't go into here. i believe he has evolved in a lot of ways, but may have some work to do there. i accept the julius situation as evidence. the beauty of that approach is there's always plausible deniability if a player is "cleared to play." and it allows the players to play up to their "resilience" as a virtue, let alone the weight of needing to play well to get paid.

[j4remi]

That's fair, but I think those GDT patterns reflect larger trends for how we treat the two of them. I wasn't saying randle and Brunson's effort level is the same, just pointing out that a lot of what Julius gets skewered for isn't uncommon from guys carrying that kind of offensive burden. And the #s reflect that Randle's defensive impact, despite his "lack of effort", is as good or better than a lot of other lower-level All-NBA guys.

I disagree that lazy mistakes are common for Brunson. And defensive metrics =/= measures of effort (which brings me right back to the point about his closeouts and rotations, which are easy to see if you're rewatching defensive breakdowns as often as I am for recaps).

[Jalen Bluntson]

People still in here acting like Randle is a victim? Emotions are involved being a fan. Dude earned a LOT of the heat he was given. The last two seasons have been his best seasons. Most people have come down from trashing him like they were. He was injured last playoffs he sucked the previous playoffs. He had a piss poor attitude/effort and needed a friggin guru to keep him focused. Did people go overboard? ABSOLUTELY!! I damn sure did. Let's not act like he didn't deserve some heat. It was never really about talent for most though. It was all about attitude and effort. Both have improved and it is excellent to watch. I would have traded him for a bag of weed and a 12 pack of Modelos at one point. I wouldn't trade for anything less than what HE is at this point. We CAN'T trade him for anything less than a star.

The personal attacks on his wife and kids was too much. Those people ripping down his poster was too much. That's way overboard. The talk about him being a lazy, low IQ, selfish spin cycle idiot who chokes under pressure was all true. Thankfully he has stopped most of that most of the time. Thankfully he has the POINT GOD Jalen to guide him.

[cgf]

That's fair, but I think those GDT patterns reflect larger trends for how we treat the two of them. I wasn't saying randle and Brunson's effort level is the same, just pointing out that a lot of what Julius gets skewered for isn't uncommon from guys carrying that kind of offensive burden. And the #s reflect that Randle's defensive impact, despite his "lack of effort", is as good or better than a lot of other lower-level All-NBA guys.

I disagree that lazy mistakes are common for Brunson. And defensive metrics =/= measures of effort (which brings me right back to the point about his closeouts and rotations, which are easy to see if you're rewatching defensive breakdowns as often as I am for recaps).

Keep tabs on how many times he jogs back, doesn't contest, or any of the other things Julius is criticized for.

Julius makes some ridiculous decisions as a help defender...and not always ones that conserve energy for him...but he just doesn't cripple a defense like his detractors claim, despite his "laziness".

[KnicksGadfly]

A parable by KGF, with some help from ChatGPT

In days of yore, a tale unfolded, a fable of a hoop and a tale of woes,
Once, upon the court, they served me crow, a bitter dish, the pundits chose.
"WOE IS YOU," they cried aloud, "Julius Randle, a defensive marvel, a prodigy unbowed!"
But alas, the coin flipped, and gold poured in, young Julius got paid, his prowess drowned.

No longer did he dance on defense, nor weave his shots with eloquence,
The critics sharpened their tongues, served crow with malevolence.
Yet, with the advent of Brunson, a whisper in the wind,
Shots found their mark again, and the pundits tried to serve me crow, the bitterness pinned.

"Want some defense now?" they jeered, mocking the notion with disdain,
Spoiled, spoiled, their words like poison, a bitter encore.
"I seek not defense, but effort pure," said I, rejecting the bitter feast,
No appetite for lesser crow, my soul craved a different beast.

"Nay, you greedy knave, yearning for a LeBron in his prime,
A player supreme, an unreachable climb."
"No," said I, "a defender true, a heart on the court, is that a crime?"
"NAY, YOU GREEDY KNAVE," they wailed, tears streaming, "just want him to be LEBRON every time."

"No," said I, "a caring soul on defense, is that too much to claim?"
"NAY YOU GREEDY KNAVE," they roared, their fury aflame,
"Julius singled out, no other star the same,
In this league of stars, only he bears the blame."

"Mistaken you are," I calmly replied, a retort in the breeze,
Brunson and Julius, a distinction to appease.
One short, unathletic, striving with might,
The other indifferent, in the shadows of the night.

"DON'T MATTER," they declared, hands over ears and eyes,
"LEBRON, BRUNSON, LALALALALALALALALALALLALAALALALALALA" in endless cries.
Yet, in the echoes of their fervor, a truth unseen,
A parable of effort, defense, and the pursuit of a basketball dream.

[spree2kawhi]

People still in here acting like Randle is a victim? Emotions are involved being a fan. Dude earned a LOT of the heat he was given. The last two seasons have been his best seasons. Most people have come down from trashing him like they were. He was injured last playoffs he sucked the previous playoffs. He had a piss poor attitude/effort and needed a friggin guru to keep him focused. Did people go overboard? ABSOLUTELY!! I damn sure did. Let's not act like he didn't deserve some heat. It was never really about talent for most though. It was all about attitude and effort. Both have improved and it is excellent to watch. I would have traded him for a bag of weed and a 12 pack of Modelos at one point. I wouldn't trade for anything less than what HE is at this point. We CAN'T trade him for anything less than a star.

The personal attacks on his wife and kids was too much. Those people ripping down his poster was too much. That's way overboard. The talk about him being a lazy, low IQ, selfish spin cycle idiot who chokes under pressure was all true. Thankfully he has stopped most of that most of the time. Thankfully he has the POINT GOD Jalen to guide him.

I have almost gotten over the fact that he’s going to be here. Now he simply has to stop bringing the ball up the court like he’s freaking LeBron James. He always turns it over.

[Jalen Bluntson]

People still in here acting like Randle is a victim? Emotions are involved being a fan. Dude earned a LOT of the heat he was given. The last two seasons have been his best seasons. Most people have come down from trashing him like they were. He was injured last playoffs he sucked the previous playoffs. He had a piss poor attitude/effort and needed a friggin guru to keep him focused. Did people go overboard? ABSOLUTELY!! I damn sure did. Let's not act like he didn't deserve some heat. It was never really about talent for most though. It was all about attitude and effort. Both have improved and it is excellent to watch. I would have traded him for a bag of weed and a 12 pack of Modelos at one point. I wouldn't trade for anything less than what HE is at this point. We CAN'T trade him for anything less than a star.

The personal attacks on his wife and kids was too much. Those people ripping down his poster was too much. That's way overboard. The talk about him being a lazy, low IQ, selfish spin cycle idiot who chokes under pressure was all true. Thankfully he has stopped most of that most of the time. Thankfully he has the POINT GOD Jalen to guide him.

I have almost gotten over the fact that he’s going to be here. Now he simply has to stop bringing the ball up the court like he’s freaking LeBron James. He always turns it over.

I just expect maximum effort and unselfish play. I can handle some mistakes and all the rest but, he needs to polish his game and stop THINKING he's LeBron level Kobe level player. He is not. His big advantage is his size and strength. That's it. He's not a better shooter/handler/dunker/defender than everyone. He's just bigger and stronger than most. That's his entire repertoire. He's also a good passer but, dumb.

[j4remi]

That's fair, but I think those GDT patterns reflect larger trends for how we treat the two of them. I wasn't saying randle and Brunson's effort level is the same, just pointing out that a lot of what Julius gets skewered for isn't uncommon from guys carrying that kind of offensive burden. And the #s reflect that Randle's defensive impact, despite his "lack of effort", is as good or better than a lot of other lower-level All-NBA guys.

I disagree that lazy mistakes are common for Brunson. And defensive metrics =/= measures of effort (which brings me right back to the point about his closeouts and rotations, which are easy to see if you're rewatching defensive breakdowns as often as I am for recaps).

Keep tabs on how many times he jogs back, doesn't contest, or any of the other things Julius is criticized for.

Julius makes some ridiculous decisions as a help defender...and not always ones that conserve energy for him...but he just doesn't cripple a defense like his detractors claim, despite his "laziness".

Brunson's by no means a good defender. But outside of some late closeouts, it's not close as far as "where do defensive breakdowns begin."

When I complain about the effort, it's also the details. Randle never hedges. His jogging back can cause defensive cross-ups, putting smaller guys on F's. He drops too far when his man is screened way too often. If there is a crossmatch, you'll seldom see him try to tag in before the mismatch gets exploited. Watch OG or Josh Hart in comparable situations; if they get a chance, they switch. He closes out with his hands low and often late, as if he assumes that guy won't shoot. Sometimes, everyone is guilty of that, but RJ and Randle are two of the most habitual.

Brunson's had some awful nights; if you run him through screens, he'll give up space. Plus, his closeouts only work if he's on top of guys because he just doesn't have the length to bother competent shooters in space. Sure, he argues with refs and gets back late occasionally after driving through the basket, but he's just as likely to be the first man back. He fights through contact on screens and draws offensive fouls that way too. He plays passing lanes. The details aren't ALL so frustrating.

But again, they both kinda suck at defense. It's just that watching Randle defend is like watching Jared Jeffries or Lance Thomas play offense. It's not even always THAT bad, but it's always frustrating. Maybe in year five, I'll feel the same way about watching shooters hit jumpers right over a Brunson closeout too.

[Davis18]

People still in here acting like Randle is a victim? Emotions are involved being a fan. Dude earned a LOT of the heat he was given. The last two seasons have been his best seasons. Most people have come down from trashing him like they were. He was injured last playoffs he sucked the previous playoffs. He had a piss poor attitude/effort and needed a friggin guru to keep him focused. Did people go overboard? ABSOLUTELY!! I damn sure did. Let's not act like he didn't deserve some heat. It was never really about talent for most though. It was all about attitude and effort. Both have improved and it is excellent to watch. I would have traded him for a bag of weed and a 12 pack of Modelos at one point. I wouldn't trade for anything less than what HE is at this point. We CAN'T trade him for anything less than a star.

The personal attacks on his wife and kids was too much. Those people ripping down his poster was too much. That's way overboard. The talk about him being a lazy, low IQ, selfish spin cycle idiot who chokes under pressure was all true. Thankfully he has stopped most of that most of the time. Thankfully he has the POINT GOD Jalen to guide him.

I have almost gotten over the fact that he’s going to be here. Now he simply has to stop bringing the ball up the court like he’s freaking LeBron James. He always turns it over.

I just expect maximum effort and unselfish play. I can handle some mistakes and all the rest but, he needs to polish his game and stop THINKING he's LeBron level Kobe level player. He is not. His big advantage is his size and strength. That's it. He's not a better shooter/handler/dunker/defender than everyone. He's just bigger and stronger than most. That's his entire repertoire. He's also a good passer but, dumb.

I am also down to the fact that we wouldn't net fair return for his current value to this team.
Julius, just man up.. play to your size.
Please don't dribble unless really have to.. let the guards bring up the ball.

[Clyde_Style]

Randle is pretty much the same player for the Knicks as Melo was.

You cannot build around him if he's your best player.

He has no leadership skills whatsoever.

He is rarely clutch.

His default mode is ISO. It takes other leaders on the team to draw him into a ball motion offense.

He can defend, but only does so when he feels like it, including when the game is on the line.

He is not someone you can rely on to make smart decisions at crunch time. When he does, it is the exception to the rule.

He's a good volume scorer who can carry the team when he's hot. When he's not hot he kind of sucks.

The same anger over criticisms of Randle are the same angers that got triggered when Melo was criticized, because they are basically the same kind of player loved by the same kind of fan.

There are no double standards in saying a single word above this sentence. It is reality. All of it applies to both Melo and Randle.

[Galou]

A parable by KGF, with some help from ChatGPT

In days of yore, a tale unfolded, a fable of a hoop and a tale of woes,
Once, upon the court, they served me crow, a bitter dish, the pundits chose.
"WOE IS YOU," they cried aloud, "Julius Randle, a defensive marvel, a prodigy unbowed!"
But alas, the coin flipped, and gold poured in, young Julius got paid, his prowess drowned.

No longer did he dance on defense, nor weave his shots with eloquence,
The critics sharpened their tongues, served crow with malevolence.
Yet, with the advent of Brunson, a whisper in the wind,
Shots found their mark again, and the pundits tried to serve me crow, the bitterness pinned.

"Want some defense now?" they jeered, mocking the notion with disdain,
Spoiled, spoiled, their words like poison, a bitter encore.
"I seek not defense, but effort pure," said I, rejecting the bitter feast,
No appetite for lesser crow, my soul craved a different beast.

"Nay, you greedy knave, yearning for a LeBron in his prime,
A player supreme, an unreachable climb."
"No," said I, "a defender true, a heart on the court, is that a crime?"
"NAY, YOU GREEDY KNAVE," they wailed, tears streaming, "just want him to be LEBRON every time."

"No," said I, "a caring soul on defense, is that too much to claim?"
"NAY YOU GREEDY KNAVE," they roared, their fury aflame,
"Julius singled out, no other star the same,
In this league of stars, only he bears the blame."

"Mistaken you are," I calmly replied, a retort in the breeze,
Brunson and Julius, a distinction to appease.
One short, unathletic, striving with might,
The other indifferent, in the shadows of the night.

"DON'T MATTER," they declared, hands over ears and eyes,
"LEBRON, BRUNSON, LALALALALALALALALALALLALAALALALALALA" in endless cries.
Yet, in the echoes of their fervor, a truth unseen,
A parable of effort, defense, and the pursuit of a basketball dream.

[Ma10]

https://youtube.com/shorts/Cco-pPkaAb4?si=fNVu7NuDTP_KkuJ2

Don't know how to post shorts on this oldschool board but this man is exactly right!

[spree2kawhi]

I have almost gotten over the fact that he’s going to be here. Now he simply has to stop bringing the ball up the court like he’s freaking LeBron James. He always turns it over.

I just expect maximum effort and unselfish play. I can handle some mistakes and all the rest but, he needs to polish his game and stop THINKING he's LeBron level Kobe level player. He is not. His big advantage is his size and strength. That's it. He's not a better shooter/handler/dunker/defender than everyone. He's just bigger and stronger than most. That's his entire repertoire. He's also a good passer but, dumb.

I am also down to the fact that we wouldn't net fair return for his current value to this team.
Julius, just man up.. play to your size.
Please don't dribble unless really have to.. let the guards bring up the ball.

If only he did that and… if he only did that, he might be a top player in the league.

He sees passes late, even the good ones. He overdribbles. He loses focus. But he can be a force to be reckoned with.