2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[sp6r=underrated]

Read on Twitter

This is why I think the NBA's tolerance of ref bashing is a problem. By tolerating absurd complaints you actually help convince people the league really does fix games.

I continue to think the NBA needs to do two things:
1. Do not count technical fouls for complaining to the ref towards the 2 technical automatic ejection rule.
2. Institute a mandatory rule that refs must call a technical foul any time a player complains or motions to the ref while a game is occurring.

IF you did this you actually would eliminate the whining that influences people to believe in the farcical theory refs are routinely fixing games.

[Peregrine01]

Read on Twitter

This is why I think the NBA's tolerance of ref bashing is a problem. By tolerating absurd complaints you actually help convince people the league really does fix games.

I continue to think the NBA needs to do two things:
1. Do not count technical fouls for complaining to the ref towards the 2 technical automatic ejection rule.
2. Institute a mandatory rule that refs must call a technical foul any time a player complains or motions to the ref while a game is occurring.

IF you did this you actually would eliminate the whining that influences people to believe in the farcical theory refs are routinely fixing games.

A big problem is that the NBA has not put refs in a good position either. The league has enabled flopping and flailing to such a degree that it can be infuriating for a defending player. Edwards complained loudly a few games ago about not even being able to touch Shai because he'll just throw his head back and be rewarded 2 free throws. And because this kind of basketball isn't honest and all about baiting for a whistle of course some players will be absolutely fed up.

I agree that this is a huge problem but the NBA has done itself no favors enabling flopping like this. I guarantee players will bitch less if they're finally able to play some defense without fear of being whistled for phantom fouls.

[sp6r=underrated]

Read on Twitter

This is why I think the NBA's tolerance of ref bashing is a problem. By tolerating absurd complaints you actually help convince people the league really does fix games.

I continue to think the NBA needs to do two things:
1. Do not count technical fouls for complaining to the ref towards the 2 technical automatic ejection rule.
2. Institute a mandatory rule that refs must call a technical foul any time a player complains or motions to the ref while a game is occurring.

IF you did this you actually would eliminate the whining that influences people to believe in the farcical theory refs are routinely fixing games.

A big problem is that the NBA has not put refs in a good position either. The league has enabled flopping and flailing to such a degree that it can be infuriating for a defending player. Edwards complained loudly a few games ago about not even being able to touch Shai because he'll just throw his head back and be rewarded 2 free throws. And because this kind of basketball isn't honest and all about baiting for a whistle of course some players will be absolutely fed up.

I agree that this is a huge problem but the NBA has done itself no favors enabling flopping like this. I guarantee players will bitch less if they're finally able to play some defense without fear of being whistled for phantom fouls.

Eh, I really don't think flopping, however much it annoys fans is what drives the ref bashing. Ref bashing exists in the NBA because the NBA for decades has gradually tolerated and implicitly encouraged players and coaches to treat refs like the jackass in a resteraunt bullying the waiter.

[Peregrine01]

Read on Twitter

This is why I think the NBA's tolerance of ref bashing is a problem. By tolerating absurd complaints you actually help convince people the league really does fix games.

I continue to think the NBA needs to do two things:
1. Do not count technical fouls for complaining to the ref towards the 2 technical automatic ejection rule.
2. Institute a mandatory rule that refs must call a technical foul any time a player complains or motions to the ref while a game is occurring.

IF you did this you actually would eliminate the whining that influences people to believe in the farcical theory refs are routinely fixing games.

A big problem is that the NBA has not put refs in a good position either. The league has enabled flopping and flailing to such a degree that it can be infuriating for a defending player. Edwards complained loudly a few games ago about not even being able to touch Shai because he'll just throw his head back and be rewarded 2 free throws. And because this kind of basketball isn't honest and all about baiting for a whistle of course some players will be absolutely fed up.

I agree that this is a huge problem but the NBA has done itself no favors enabling flopping like this. I guarantee players will bitch less if they're finally able to play some defense without fear of being whistled for phantom fouls.

Eh, I really don't think flopping, however much it annoys fans is what drives the ref bashing. Ref bashing exists in the NBA because the NBA for decades has gradually tolerated and implicitly encouraged players and coaches to treat refs like the jackass in a resteraunt bullying the waiter.

I've been watching the NBA since the 1990s and my own view of NBA officiating has never been worse than it is today. It's utterly infuriating watching a player get rewarded for flopping and flailing and immediately my animus is directed at the refs who made that BS call. You can't tell me that the players on the floor aren't even more incensed than the fans watching.

Flopping and flailing is not basketball and needs to be completely extricated from the game. That it has been enabled to such an extent has deeply hurt the integrity of the NBA.

[sp6r=underrated]

A big problem is that the NBA has not put refs in a good position either. The league has enabled flopping and flailing to such a degree that it can be infuriating for a defending player. Edwards complained loudly a few games ago about not even being able to touch Shai because he'll just throw his head back and be rewarded 2 free throws. And because this kind of basketball isn't honest and all about baiting for a whistle of course some players will be absolutely fed up.

I agree that this is a huge problem but the NBA has done itself no favors enabling flopping like this. I guarantee players will bitch less if they're finally able to play some defense without fear of being whistled for phantom fouls.

Eh, I really don't think flopping, however much it annoys fans is what drives the ref bashing. Ref bashing exists in the NBA because the NBA for decades has gradually tolerated and implicitly encouraged players and coaches to treat refs like the jackass in a resteraunt bullying the waiter.

I've been watching the NBA since the 1990s and my own view of NBA officiating has never been worse than it is today. It's utterly infuriating watching a player get rewarded for flopping and flailing and immediately my animus is directed at the refs who made that BS call. You can't tell me that the players on the floor aren't even more incensed than the fans watching.

Flopping and flailing is not basketball and needs to be completely extricated from the game. That it has been enabled to such an extent has deeply hurt the integrity of the NBA.

Respectfully I just completely disagree. From an absolute standpoint I'm amazed how great of a job NBA refs do. And even relative to my youth the refs are better.

The only way you could eliminate flopping from basketball is by either strictly enforcing carry, travel rules such that offensive players can't initiate contact or by making basketball a contact sport. Fans would hate what basketball would look like under the former rules and the later is just terrible.

[Peregrine01]

Eh, I really don't think flopping, however much it annoys fans is what drives the ref bashing. Ref bashing exists in the NBA because the NBA for decades has gradually tolerated and implicitly encouraged players and coaches to treat refs like the jackass in a resteraunt bullying the waiter.

I've been watching the NBA since the 1990s and my own view of NBA officiating has never been worse than it is today. It's utterly infuriating watching a player get rewarded for flopping and flailing and immediately my animus is directed at the refs who made that BS call. You can't tell me that the players on the floor aren't even more incensed than the fans watching.

Flopping and flailing is not basketball and needs to be completely extricated from the game. That it has been enabled to such an extent has deeply hurt the integrity of the NBA.

Respectfully I just completely disagree. From an absolute standpoint I'm amazed how great of a job NBA refs do. And even relative to my youth the refs are better.

The only way you could eliminate flopping from basketball is by either strictly enforcing carry, travel rules such that offensive players can't initiate contact or by making basketball a contact sport. Fans would hate what basketball would look like under the former rules and the later is just terrible.

If you ask the general fan who has watched across multiple eras, they’d probably say the officiating has never been worse. And why is almost everyone so pissed off at the officiating? It’s because they reward flopping!

I completely disagree that removing flopping would make the game less popular. It’s literally the main thing holding the league back now.

[The-Power]

If you ask the general fan who has watched across multiple eras, they’d probably say the officiating has never been worse.

Yeah, it's called rosy retrospection.

[HeartBreakKid]

I've been watching the NBA since the 1990s and my own view of NBA officiating has never been worse than it is today. It's utterly infuriating watching a player get rewarded for flopping and flailing and immediately my animus is directed at the refs who made that BS call. You can't tell me that the players on the floor aren't even more incensed than the fans watching.

Flopping and flailing is not basketball and needs to be completely extricated from the game. That it has been enabled to such an extent has deeply hurt the integrity of the NBA.

Respectfully I just completely disagree. From an absolute standpoint I'm amazed how great of a job NBA refs do. And even relative to my youth the refs are better.

The only way you could eliminate flopping from basketball is by either strictly enforcing carry, travel rules such that offensive players can't initiate contact or by making basketball a contact sport. Fans would hate what basketball would look like under the former rules and the later is just terrible.

If you ask the general fan who has watched across multiple eras, they’d probably say the officiating has never been worse. And why is almost everyone so pissed off at the officiating? It’s because they reward flopping!

I completely disagree that removing flopping would make the game less popular. It’s literally the main thing holding the league back now.

if you ask anyone anything if something was better a long time ago they're more likely to say yes. what kind of argument is that?

[Peregrine01]

Respectfully I just completely disagree. From an absolute standpoint I'm amazed how great of a job NBA refs do. And even relative to my youth the refs are better.

The only way you could eliminate flopping from basketball is by either strictly enforcing carry, travel rules such that offensive players can't initiate contact or by making basketball a contact sport. Fans would hate what basketball would look like under the former rules and the later is just terrible.

If you ask the general fan who has watched across multiple eras, they’d probably say the officiating has never been worse. And why is almost everyone so pissed off at the officiating? It’s because they reward flopping!

I completely disagree that removing flopping would make the game less popular. It’s literally the main thing holding the league back now.

if you ask anyone anything if something was better a long time ago they're more likely to say yes. what kind of argument is that?

I phrased it wrong. I saw a GB poll a while back asking about the one thing that fans would change most and the answer was flopping/officiating.

I can’t recall officiating being bitched about to this degree by both fans and players in the past.

[MartinToVaught]

The only way you could eliminate flopping from basketball is by either strictly enforcing carry, travel rules such that offensive players can't initiate contact or by making basketball a contact sport. Fans would hate what basketball would look like under the former rules and the later is just terrible.

Or just swallow the whistle on obvious flops until players learn that flopping won't get them anything. The refs already do it a lot of the time in the playoffs, so it's not an impossible thing to ask.

[Special_Puppy]

Every sport that implements playoffs ends up diminishing the regular season, and frankly this is a good reason to never have true playoffs to determine the league champion. The model of the European soccer leagues where league and tournament are fundamentally different things would have been the better model for American sports to embrace...but alas, that ship has sailed. There's nothing now that will convince Americans that the champion isn't based on who wins the tourney at the end, and that's bad news for all the people whose livelihood is influenced primarily by the regular season - by which I mean first and foremost the people who actually work in and around the stadium on game days.

One of my old man shouting at the clouds stances was college football was better pre-BCS under the old true bowl system. For non-American Sports fans the way it worked pre BCS in college football was you played an 11-12 game schedule with most games in conference. At the end of the season there would be one bowl game

Rose: Big-10 vs Pac 10 (major conferences)
Orange: Big-8 (major conference) vs invite
Sugar: SEC (major conference) vs invite
Cotton: SWC (defunct major conference) vs invite

As a result college football was really built around the RS in a way no other American sports league was. But because it was so odd compared to other formats people demanded the playoff format.

I think teams still valued the regular season a lot in college football even with the 4 team playoff format because you could only afford to loss 1-2 games and still qualify. The 12 team format is going to destroy the regular season though.

[sp6r=underrated]

The only way you could eliminate flopping from basketball is by either strictly enforcing carry, travel rules such that offensive players can't initiate contact or by making basketball a contact sport. Fans would hate what basketball would look like under the former rules and the later is just terrible.

Or just swallow the whistle on obvious flops until players learn that flopping won't get them anything. The refs already do it a lot of the time in the playoffs, so it's not an impossible thing to ask.

Flopping is way less of a problem than made out on forums. If you avoid watching slow motion replays and only watch calls made in real time, refs are almost never fooled by obvious flops. The times they are fooled it is only clear on slow motion replays.

[sp6r=underrated]

Every sport that implements playoffs ends up diminishing the regular season, and frankly this is a good reason to never have true playoffs to determine the league champion. The model of the European soccer leagues where league and tournament are fundamentally different things would have been the better model for American sports to embrace...but alas, that ship has sailed. There's nothing now that will convince Americans that the champion isn't based on who wins the tourney at the end, and that's bad news for all the people whose livelihood is influenced primarily by the regular season - by which I mean first and foremost the people who actually work in and around the stadium on game days.

One of my old man shouting at the clouds stances was college football was better pre-BCS under the old true bowl system. For non-American Sports fans the way it worked pre BCS in college football was you played an 11-12 game schedule with most games in conference. At the end of the season there would be one bowl game

Rose: Big-10 vs Pac 10 (major conferences)
Orange: Big-8 (major conference) vs invite
Sugar: SEC (major conference) vs invite
Cotton: SWC (defunct major conference) vs invite

As a result college football was really built around the RS in a way no other American sports league was. But because it was so odd compared to other formats people demanded the playoff format.

I think teams still valued the regular season a lot in college football even with the 4 team playoff format because you could only afford to loss 1-2 games and still qualify. The 12 team format is going to destroy the regular season though.

Eh, the 4 team format took a lot of steam out of the RS. It wasn't nearly as bad as the NBA but it still made fans adopt the post-season tournament is all that counts. And that's bad.

As an aside I don't think a 12 team format is going to work the way the NCAA wants. The first player to hold out will get killed for it but eventually players will start holding out of the 12 team playoff.

Playing a 16 game season, which is what this schedule is, is nuts when you don't get paid and it is a sport where your career can end on one play.

If I was a sure 1st round I'd opt oout.

[MartinToVaught]

Players get plenty of NIL money now. I fully expect some to opt out of the playoffs, but it'll be for the usual reasons: the portal, the draft, the lack of parity due to the SEC/B1G/media love affair.

[sp6r=underrated]

Players get plenty of NIL money now. I fully expect some to opt out of the playoffs, but it'll be for the usual reasons: the portal, the draft, the lack of parity due to the SEC/B1G/media love affair.

They don't have a contract with the university to play the game. They are working for free for the boss. It is just now their boss can't block them from having side deals. You'd have to be nuts to risk millions of dollars for an employer who won't pay you.

A 12 team playoff add 2 more games to the season. For players assured of the 1st round that's all risk no reward. Hopefully they opt out.

The fact the NCAA is allowed to continue this farce is the most disgusting part of American sports.

[tsherkin]

Eh, I really don't think flopping, however much it annoys fans is what drives the ref bashing. Ref bashing exists in the NBA because the NBA for decades has gradually tolerated and implicitly encouraged players and coaches to treat refs like the jackass in a resteraunt bullying the waiter.

I find the inconsistency, the frequency of really awful calls, some evident bias and what-not truly frustrating. There's also league influence, I'm sure, in some of the egregious douchebaggery some offensive players indulge in while baiting fouls, which is frustrating to watch.

[Texas Chuck]

I think this ref complaining is a self-feeding feedback cycle. Everyone starts bitching when their team gets one bad call(ignoring the ones they benefit from of course) and then another fan remembers that when their team gets a bad call and suddenly 3 total bad calls over a month become an epidemic in their minds.

Even when we get 2 minute reports that show the refs got it right, its too late the narrative has stuck. The officiating is fine. It really is. People just expect refs to be perfect while celebrating Steph Curry for missing 60% of the time as a GOAT. It's unreasonable expectations, its a lack of understanding of the rules, and its guys like tsherkin who call a simple flop "egregious douchbaggery" in an attempt to make the problem sound way bigger than it is.

It's really okay guys.

[eminence]

'Marginal contact'

The L2Ms are getting into fully cooked territory if they weren't always.

[AEnigma]

I think this ref complaining is a self-feeding feedback cycle. Everyone starts bitching when their team gets one bad call(ignoring the ones they benefit from of course) and then another fan remembers that when their team gets a bad call and suddenly 3 total bad calls over a month become an epidemic in their minds.

Even when we get 2 minute reports that show the refs got it right, its too late the narrative has stuck. The officiating is fine. It really is. People just expect refs to be perfect while celebrating Steph Curry for missing 60% of the time as a GOAT. It's unreasonable expectations, its a lack of understanding of the rules, and its guys like tsherkin who call a simple flop "egregious douchbaggery" in an attempt to make the problem sound way bigger than it is.

It's really okay guys.

The L2Ms are not serious or meaningful. When a criticism is made of biased or otherwise unequal refereeing, what do we get from a report showing that rules exist to justify whatever calls the referees made while glossing over the calls they could have chose to make but did not for the aggrieved team (e.g. Eminence’s post above, that recent Raptors/Lakers game, etc.). You could probably call a foul on nearly every play, but no one, including the league itself, expects or even wants that to happen.

[Texas Chuck]

of course they are meaningful. They openly admit calls they miss. It's just fans have an expectation that all calls should go their way. But its a level of transparency other leagues don't offer.

And the sooner people stop looking for reasons to complain the less of an issue it is. But now we watch super slow motion replay from 4 different angles and get angry if a ref missed something at full speed in real time with tremendous very large athletes. Newsflash to fans--it doesn't slow down matrix style for the refs as the game is going on....