Who Is Scottie - His era has begun

[phanman]

I think some of you have unrealistic standards as to who can/is afforded keys to the franchise. Scottie most definitely fits the bill. You can honestly boil it down to the simple fact that he is our highest draft pick at #4 since winning the lottery back in 2007. Once Fred left and OG/Pascal were traded the platform is his for the taking. We already saw glimpses of it early on with Pascal taking a back seat and all the national off-court coverage he got as top billing.

The sample size is still small with only 6 games, but he's struggled without Pascal. The energy level is down, his 3pt% has cratered, his turnovers are up and he just doesn't seem focused during many early stretches of the game. The injuries to Poeltl and IQ/RJ recently haven't helped, but at least there are clear signs of dominance/positivity when he does look engaged. His biggest issue for me is the lack of a face up game in the mid post area. I really think that he should have way more touches in the post since he'd be able to take advantage of his strength and facilitate off the double there.

With RJ's resurgence in a Raptor uniform, I think it's going to create some healthy competition between the two. You always want to have somebody in the gym to push your best player and he is the perfect guy to replace Pascal in that department. RJ also has all the tools and opportunity to steal the keys from Scottie. He is actually more suited to become our #1 option over Scottie in my opinion.

[Dalek]

I don't think they gave him any keys lol. They did with him what they did with Bosh, Derozan, Lowry and Siakam. They just switched to the next young guy because the previous iteration wasn't good enough or had run its course. The Siakam/FVV era was brutal to watch as that was a team that was actually built to win. They're going to try to collect a bunch of good players and put together a good team. They're not building around a generational talent. There are maybe two or 3 of those in the league (Jokic, Embiid, Doncic). You can put Giannis in there and even he's very limited and more of a modern Dwight Howard.

Even Jason Tatum isn't a player you give the keys to. He can be the best player on a great team though. They definitely have not built the team around him, but made him one of the guys. That's the way the Raptors will approach this as they don't have a Jokic. Barnes so far has been a Siakam or Bosh type of player but that can drastically change if he alters something in his offense by adding. That's all you can hope for as the team from Canada where everyone lives in igloos and ride polar bears. We even speak French here!

I think giving the keys is that this person is the future superstar who you build around. All the previous Raptor's examples just didn't have the two-way potential of Barnes (maybe Lowry at times, but even he wasn't close to a DPOY type). I'd put Barnes in the Giannis territory although scoring wise he still has room to grow. Bucks gave Giannis spacing and he thrived. Barnes is working with a lot less.

A lot of people say his numbers are down from the Siakam trade but he also hasn't been playing with a C the past month. Barnes is way overstretched and I also think with a C, he will have some better lanes to operate in pick and roll.

I write all this to say that he will exceed Siakam or any of the recent star players we built around. We just have to let the roster around him settle down a bit because right now the tanking is skewing perspectives. Even Jokic could not win with this team as is.

[ash_k]

so Scottie is 1W-5L as the franchise player. It can't feel good.
And if it was not for that blazing shooting against Miami, he would be 0W-6L as the franchise player.

We don't know what all this losing is going to do to his confidence: I really hope we are pushing for the play-in like last night seemed to indicate

I doubt Barnes is dumb enough to think he has a roster that is expected to win lol. This is clearly an attempt to tank.

I think you are under the impression that a competitor like Scottie is stepping out there expecting to lose and just accepting the losses with a smile. Yesterday was the first "acceptable" loss under his era. You would have to shut him down quickly like we did with Kyle and Fred during Tampa, but then it would take away from his development like finding out more about his stamina.

[gbball]

I think it's good for Scottie to realize that if really cares about winning he just has to get better.

As much as he's improved. He's still a long ways away from being good enough to impose his will consistently. He needs to become more efficient with with energy. Defend better, score more easily, make the game easier for his teammates and manage the game better. He needs to learn when and where he can afford to be reckless and when he has to be on point.

At times his approach is irresponsible if not immature. At other times he's going all out and can will us back into games...the problem is part of the reason a lot of these games are out hand to begin with is because of him too.

It seems like he forgets what works and has to rediscover an effective approach each game. First 3 quarters are warm up, then he's ready to go in the fourth.

He can get discouraged when his shots don't go because he's unsure of where his success comes from on a game to game basis. He's got to develop some formulaic approaches to being effective when he's not in rhythm until he can turn it on late when needed.

He's got to learn how to prevent the game from getting out of hand in the first place, or closing the door on the opponent early on and not letting them back in.

If there is a silver lining to this season, it's that Scottie is learning that he can't win as he is currently.

[Chandan]

I don't think they gave him any keys lol. They did with him what they did with Bosh, Derozan, Lowry and Siakam. They just switched to the next young guy because the previous iteration wasn't good enough or had run its course. The Siakam/FVV era was brutal to watch as that was a team that was actually built to win. They're going to try to collect a bunch of good players and put together a good team. They're not building around a generational talent. There are maybe two or 3 of those in the league (Jokic, Embiid, Doncic). You can put Giannis in there and even he's very limited and more of a modern Dwight Howard.

Even Jason Tatum isn't a player you give the keys to. He can be the best player on a great team though. They definitely have not built the team around him, but made him one of the guys. That's the way the Raptors will approach this as they don't have a Jokic. Barnes so far has been a Siakam or Bosh type of player but that can drastically change if he alters something in his offense by adding. That's all you can hope for as the team from Canada where everyone lives in igloos and ride polar bears. We even speak French here!

Too bad we didn't enter the wemby sweepstakes even if we were in prime position to do so.

[RoteSchroder]

Also, who the hell hands the keys over to a player who is a finished product, or is ready lol?

Pretty much every team that signs or trades for a high level all-star. Kawhi was basically a god in his season here. Dude was handed the keys, the car, the house, free dinners.

Every single young player with star potential is "unfinished", it's why you invest in the young players and develop them.

There's a difference between investing and developing in young players versus planning to build the entire roster around a young player. Orlando could have called Aaron Gordon at 22 years old the future face of the league and the player that they were gonna build around.

Aint no one signing prime Lebron and saying "Well he is good, so lets give him the keys"

Every team that has signed LBJ has pretty much given him the keys. That why his nickname is LeGM. Why the hell wouldn't you give the keys to prime LBJ?

Drake was given the key to the city when he already made it and was famous. He wasn't given the keys when he was rolling around in a wheelchair in Degrassi High.

you do that BEFORE they are finished so they have a connection to the team. This is investing in stocks, not picking up bread from the store, it's all about the future.

Yeah, we pretty much did the same thing with Derozan and Bosh, despite them capping out as #3's on a contending team at best. Colangelo tried to do it with Bargnani too, lmao.

Siakam, OG, FVV turned out to be solid players, but none of them were handed the reigns before they were ready or before they proven themselves. You can develop and build connections without having to label someone as their franchise player. Lowry is someone else who earned his place with his play.

I'm not sure why people are thinking ANYONE on this team that is under 25 is a finished product, are we to expect Scottie to magically be in his prime at 22? Some of the expectations around here are sheer insanity.

Seems like a strawman, no one's thinking that. There are a few people who are going overboard with the whining and criticism of Scottie and his supporters though. I don't have a problem with Scottie, but more so with how the FO deals with things.

[Scase]

Also, who the hell hands the keys over to a player who is a finished product, or is ready lol?

Pretty much every team that signs or trades for a high level all-star. Kawhi was basically a god in his season here. Dude was handed the keys, the car, the house, free dinners.

Every single young player with star potential is "unfinished", it's why you invest in the young players and develop them.

There's a difference between investing and developing in young players versus planning to build the entire roster around a young player. Orlando could have called Aaron Gordon at 22 years old the future face of the league and the player that they were gonna build around.

Aint no one signing prime Lebron and saying "Well he is good, so lets give him the keys"

Every team that has signed LBJ has pretty much given him the keys. That why his nickname is LeGM. Why the hell wouldn't you give the keys to prime LBJ?

Drake was given the key to the city when he already made it and was famous. He wasn't given the keys when he was rolling around in a wheelchair in Degrassi High.

you do that BEFORE they are finished so they have a connection to the team. This is investing in stocks, not picking up bread from the store, it's all about the future.

Yeah, we pretty much did the same thing with Derozan and Bosh, despite them capping out as #3's on a contending team at best. Colangelo tried to do it with Bargnani too, lmao.

Siakam, OG, FVV turned out to be solid players, but none of them were handed the reigns before they were ready or before they proven themselves. You can develop and build connections without having to label someone as their franchise player. Lowry is someone else who earned his place with his play.

I'm not sure why people are thinking ANYONE on this team that is under 25 is a finished product, are we to expect Scottie to magically be in his prime at 22? Some of the expectations around here are sheer insanity.

Seems like a strawman, no one's thinking that. There are a few people who are going overboard with the whining and criticism of Scottie and his supporters though. I don't have a problem with Scottie, but more so with how the FO deals with things.

Your entire argument is based off a flawed understanding about what "being handed the keys" means. Kawhi was not handed the keys, he was a mercenary they hoped would stay.

You don't "hand the keys" to a superstar, the team is theirs period. You "hand the keys" to young unproven players to be the focal point of a team building a roster around them.

These are two very different situations.

[KP730]

I don't think they gave him any keys lol. They did with him what they did with Bosh, Derozan, Lowry and Siakam. They just switched to the next young guy because the previous iteration wasn't good enough or had run its course. The Siakam/FVV era was brutal to watch as that was a team that was actually built to win. They're going to try to collect a bunch of good players and put together a good team. They're not building around a generational talent. There are maybe two or 3 of those in the league (Jokic, Embiid, Doncic). You can put Giannis in there and even he's very limited and more of a modern Dwight Howard.

Even Jason Tatum isn't a player you give the keys to. He can be the best player on a great team though. They definitely have not built the team around him, but made him one of the guys. That's the way the Raptors will approach this as they don't have a Jokic. Barnes so far has been a Siakam or Bosh type of player but that can drastically change if he alters something in his offense by adding. That's all you can hope for as the team from Canada where everyone lives in igloos and ride polar bears. We even speak French here!

Yeah, reality is the FVV/Siakam era was NOT good enough (it was terrible). Can’t build around those two - they are not stars, but instead the blocks used to build around stars…and were miscast for the past couple years

It seems like there is sentiment that the Raps didn’t give FVV/Siakam a real chance, when in reality the raps gave them the following in their starting lineup:

- ROY, top 4 lotto prospect in Barnes
- one of the best defenders in the NBA in OG
- the C that apparently FVV/Siakam specifically asked for in Jakob

Those 3 sound like great role players to have around real stars to me

All that given to FVV/Siakam in the prime of their careers. And that all summed up to some of the least enjoyable, mediocre basketball I’ve seen in many years

Clearly had to move on from that. If anything, FVV/Siakam proved to us all that they were NOT worth building around, forcing Masai to try building around Barnes and see where that goes. Time/results will tell if it is “warranted” or not, but we fans ought to give both him and the team time to develop and see where this leads

Let’s see how Barnes’ team looks when he is closer to the prime of his career. We saw how a team built around prime FVV/Siakam looks (terrible), so let’s see what the Raps with a prime Barnes’ looks like

[hype_2004]

so Scottie is 1W-5L as the franchise player. It can't feel good.
And if it was not for that blazing shooting against Miami, he would be 0W-6L as the franchise player.

We don't know what all this losing is going to do to his confidence: I really hope we are pushing for the play-in like last night seemed to indicate

If he's the man, then he's the man. He either embraces the moment and take it upon himself to be a great player and learn from the losses or he folds like many before him. I want Scottie to succeed like everyone else, we want him to take the throne and take us once again to the promise land. But he needs to be mature enough to trust the process and the journey. If he fails we move on, life goes on and we will search once again for the right player to man this team for the future. This team, this city is bigger than any mfing player, from the past, the present and the future.

[ash_k]

so Scottie is 1W-5L as the franchise player. It can't feel good.
And if it was not for that blazing shooting against Miami, he would be 0W-6L as the franchise player.

We don't know what all this losing is going to do to his confidence: I really hope we are pushing for the play-in like last night seemed to indicate

If he's the man, then he's the man. He either embraces the moment and take it upon himself to be a great player and learn from the losses or he folds like many before him. I want Scottie to succeed like everyone else, we want him to take the throne and take us once again to the promise land. But he needs to be mature enough to trust the process and the journey. If he fails we move on, life goes on and we will search once again for the right player to man this team for the future. This team, this city is bigger than any mfing player, from the past, the present and the future.

With the level of coaching, it is difficult to look at it the way you do. The team with OG&Pascal massively underperformed with Darko and was at 12-19.
Okay so we have traded both, is the losing now on Scottie not being the man or just the bad coaching or both?
The new coach has not demonstrated he can win games; one of the risks of tanking here is hiding the shortcomings of Darko while taking away the confidence of players like Scottie having never been on a losing team in their short career.

[Yeezus_]

so Scottie is 1W-5L as the franchise player. It can't feel good.
And if it was not for that blazing shooting against Miami, he would be 0W-6L as the franchise player.

We don't know what all this losing is going to do to his confidence: I really hope we are pushing for the play-in like last night seemed to indicate

If he's the man, then he's the man. He either embraces the moment and take it upon himself to be a great player and learn from the losses or he folds like many before him. I want Scottie to succeed like everyone else, we want him to take the throne and take us once again to the promise land. But he needs to be mature enough to trust the process and the journey. If he fails we move on, life goes on and we will search once again for the right player to man this team for the future. This team, this city is bigger than any mfing player, from the past, the present and the future.

With the level of coaching, it is difficult to look at it the way you do. The team with OG&Pascal massively underperformed with Darko and was at 12-19.
Okay so we have traded both, is the losing now on Scottie not being the man or just the bad coaching or both?
The new coach has not demonstrated he can win games; one of the risks of tanking here is hiding the shortcomings of Darko while taking away the confidence of players like Scottie having never been on a losing team in their short career.

The lack of wins is largely a talent issue and not about Scottie or coaching.

[ash_k]

If he's the man, then he's the man. He either embraces the moment and take it upon himself to be a great player and learn from the losses or he folds like many before him. I want Scottie to succeed like everyone else, we want him to take the throne and take us once again to the promise land. But he needs to be mature enough to trust the process and the journey. If he fails we move on, life goes on and we will search once again for the right player to man this team for the future. This team, this city is bigger than any mfing player, from the past, the present and the future.

With the level of coaching, it is difficult to look at it the way you do. The team with OG&Pascal massively underperformed with Darko and was at 12-19.
Okay so we have traded both, is the losing now on Scottie not being the man or just the bad coaching or both?
The new coach has not demonstrated he can win games; one of the risks of tanking here is hiding the shortcomings of Darko while taking away the confidence of players like Scottie having never been on a losing team in their short career.

The lack of wins is largely a talent issue and not about Scottie or coaching.

folks were still using the 'talent' issue when we had Barnnes|OG|Siakam|Yak losing in Charlotte, Portland@home, etc..
Losing against Memphis bench was not a "talent issue", losing against worst team in NBA history was not a talent issue.

[HiJiNX]

With the level of coaching, it is difficult to look at it the way you do. The team with OG&Pascal massively underperformed with Darko and was at 12-19.
Okay so we have traded both, is the losing now on Scottie not being the man or just the bad coaching or both?
The new coach has not demonstrated he can win games; one of the risks of tanking here is hiding the shortcomings of Darko while taking away the confidence of players like Scottie having never been on a losing team in their short career.

The lack of wins is largely a talent issue and not about Scottie or coaching.

folks were still using the 'talent' issue when we had Barnnes|OG|Siakam|Yak losing in Charlotte, Portland@home, etc..
Losing against Memphis bench was not a "talent issue", losing against worst team in NBA history was not a talent issue.

The reality is that teams have embarrassing losses every season, even the good ones. OKC got blown out by Detroit minus Cade the other day, no? Didn’t we lose to Charlotte twice in our championship season? And a mediocre Portland team in a game we should have won?

Darko certainly needs some work as a coach but to put all the blame at his feet is an oversimplification I think. I agree with you on the premise that Darko needs to learn how to win games. I have had lots of criticism for him but I think he’s shown improvement in a lot of areas, however, we are losing a lot of games in the last six minutes and many of those losses were impacted by the guys he chose to be on the floor. Still, if we had better finishing talent (and for as good as Barnes has been in the fourth quarter, he has not been great in the final minute) I think we are having a different conversation.

Anyway, I think we will be able to answer the coaching question more accurately in a year or two (assuming Darko is still around in two seasons) once the roster takes shape and the core have had some time to grow together.

[ash_k]

The lack of wins is largely a talent issue and not about Scottie or coaching.

folks were still using the 'talent' issue when we had Barnnes|OG|Siakam|Yak losing in Charlotte, Portland@home, etc..
Losing against Memphis bench was not a "talent issue", losing against worst team in NBA history was not a talent issue.

The reality is that teams have embarrassing losses every season, even the good ones. OKC got blown out by Detroit minus Cade the other day, no? Didn’t we lose to Charlotte twice in our championship season? And a mediocre Portland team in a game we should have won?

Darko certainly needs some work as a coach but to put all the blame at his feet is an oversimplification I think. I agree with you on the premise that Darko needs to learn how to win games. I have had lots of criticism for him but I think he’s shown improvement in a lot of areas, however, we are losing a lot of games in the last six minutes and many of those losses were impacted by the guys he chose to be on the floor. Still, if we had better finishing talent (and for as good as Barnes has been in the fourth quarter, he has not been great in the final minute) I think we are having a different conversation.

Anyway, I think we will be able to answer the coaching question more accurately in a year or two (assuming Darko is still around in two seasons) once the roster takes shape and the core have had some time to grow together.

It is about the consistency of the performances(more like the underperformances). 82 games, bad teams are going to catch you sometimes:
2 seasons ago, during our 48-34 , lowly Detroit Casey swept us 0-3 (imagine that, 51-31, meaning 2nd seed in the East!).

It would have been an "oversimplification", had they(OG|Barnes|Pascal|..) not already demonstrated they could win at a very HIGH-LEVEL the last 2 seasons. 15-11 with Yak, without a training camp.

I still cant believe we had the DPOY-elect on the perimeter with Scottie playing like a Future DPOY on the interior, but Darko could absolutely do nothing with it despite having a training camp! Unbelievable!

[Chandan]

folks were still using the 'talent' issue when we had Barnnes|OG|Siakam|Yak losing in Charlotte, Portland@home, etc..
Losing against Memphis bench was not a "talent issue", losing against worst team in NBA history was not a talent issue.

The reality is that teams have embarrassing losses every season, even the good ones. OKC got blown out by Detroit minus Cade the other day, no? Didn’t we lose to Charlotte twice in our championship season? And a mediocre Portland team in a game we should have won?

Darko certainly needs some work as a coach but to put all the blame at his feet is an oversimplification I think. I agree with you on the premise that Darko needs to learn how to win games. I have had lots of criticism for him but I think he’s shown improvement in a lot of areas, however, we are losing a lot of games in the last six minutes and many of those losses were impacted by the guys he chose to be on the floor. Still, if we had better finishing talent (and for as good as Barnes has been in the fourth quarter, he has not been great in the final minute) I think we are having a different conversation.

Anyway, I think we will be able to answer the coaching question more accurately in a year or two (assuming Darko is still around in two seasons) once the roster takes shape and the core have had some time to grow together.

It is about the consistency of the performances(more like the underperformances). 82 games, bad teams are going to catch you sometimes:
2 seasons ago, during our 48-34 , lowly Detroit Casey swept us 0-3 (imagine that, 51-31, meaning 2nd seed in the East!).

It would have been an "oversimplification", had they(OG|Barnes|Pascal|..) not already demonstrated they could win at a very HIGH-LEVEL the last 2 seasons. 15-11 with Yak, without a training camp.

I still cant believe we had the DPOY-elect on the perimeter with Scottie playing like a Future DPOY on the interior, but Darko could absolutely do nothing with it despite having a training camp! Unbelievable!

Hiring darko could be the dagger for masai. I have no faith in darko being able to bring a team out of the gutter. For someone who is supposed to be a motivator, OG and Siakam sure didn't seem motivated playing under him. Either that or they were just being utlitized poorly. It's telling what the ex raptors are doing while being under vastly better coaches.

[ash_k]

The reality is that teams have embarrassing losses every season, even the good ones. OKC got blown out by Detroit minus Cade the other day, no? Didn’t we lose to Charlotte twice in our championship season? And a mediocre Portland team in a game we should have won?

Darko certainly needs some work as a coach but to put all the blame at his feet is an oversimplification I think. I agree with you on the premise that Darko needs to learn how to win games. I have had lots of criticism for him but I think he’s shown improvement in a lot of areas, however, we are losing a lot of games in the last six minutes and many of those losses were impacted by the guys he chose to be on the floor. Still, if we had better finishing talent (and for as good as Barnes has been in the fourth quarter, he has not been great in the final minute) I think we are having a different conversation.

Anyway, I think we will be able to answer the coaching question more accurately in a year or two (assuming Darko is still around in two seasons) once the roster takes shape and the core have had some time to grow together.

It is about the consistency of the performances(more like the underperformances). 82 games, bad teams are going to catch you sometimes:
2 seasons ago, during our 48-34 , lowly Detroit Casey swept us 0-3 (imagine that, 51-31, meaning 2nd seed in the East!).

It would have been an "oversimplification", had they(OG|Barnes|Pascal|..) not already demonstrated they could win at a very HIGH-LEVEL the last 2 seasons. 15-11 with Yak, without a training camp.

I still cant believe we had the DPOY-elect on the perimeter with Scottie playing like a Future DPOY on the interior, but Darko could absolutely do nothing with it despite having a training camp! Unbelievable!

Hiring darko could be the dagger for masai. I have no faith in darko being able to bring a team out of the gutter. For someone who is supposed to be a motivator, OG and Siakam sure didn't seem motivated playing under him. Either that or they were just being utlitized poorly. It's telling what the ex raptors are doing while being under vastly better coaches.

It would be insane to let go the management team that won us LOB just a few years ago. There will be no LOB without the Gasol trade and all the other trades to that point.

Kawhi has not won it since either, it is how difficult winning is. Ask those Maple Leafs fans.

Masai said he interviewed 15 guys for the position?! Going after Udoka first was the right choice: Then once it failed as we can tell it was a very difficult choice hence the time it took to make it.

Masai picked COY Nurse. He is certainly allowed to make a mistake(Darko) and rectify it(if nothing changes...)

[Dennis 37]

Been watching this guy named Krispy Flakes. He is a Detroit Pistons fan and it is entertaining to watch him agonize over the failures of his team. Reminds me of our dark days in the middle to late oughts.

This video he is revisiting draft class player comparisons from 2021. Scottie content at 8:24.

Watch on YouTube

[Scase]

Been watching this guy named Krispy Flakes. He is a Detroit Pistons fan and it is entertaining to watch him agonize over the failures of his team. Reminds me of our dark days in the middle to late oughts.

This video he is revisiting draft class player comparisons from 2021. Scottie content at 8:24.

Watch on YouTube

More and more people keep making the Pippen comparisons, and man, from a glance they don't seem so wild.

Pippen in his prime he put up 20.4/7.5/6/2/1 on 48/34/70 splits.
Barnes this year is putting up 20/8.3/6/1.3/1.5 on 47/34/78 splits.

One thing to note the bulls during his prime averaged 104ppg, and raps put up 114ppg this season. So a bit of inflation but, the impact is definitely similar. Pippen was a better POA defender, Barnes is a better help defender, overall pretty similar players though.