Legler and JJ break down modern offenses, why scoring is up, etc.

[JN61]

legit shocking how effective the bulls full court press was in the 90s, really highlights the lack of ball-handling teams had back in the day:

Watch on YouTube

I mean yea the Knicks did that to themselves playing defensive line-ups, but still shocking.

No way this works against modern offenses.

Didn't one world cups totally shut down Giannis by using press and double teams... These scrubs (with no athletic bone in their body) which according you lots wouldn't even make anywhere near NBA just shutting down the best player in the world. Curious.

[JonFromVA]

To add to my last post, the strategic efficiency of coaching and matchups has increased, which has also boosted the scoring.

Imagine back to the 90s/00s, when players had the opponents best defender assigned to them, and common sentiment was just to accept it and attack the matchup.

Not the case now. Teams hunt matchups relentlessly, especially in the playoffs. I think the paradigm shift started in the '16 finals when the Cavs went down 3-1 and Lebron and Kyrie just started hunting Curry every possession because it gave their offense the best chance to create a quality shot. Why let Iggy, Klay, or Draymond guard you when the 6'3 skinny dude is right there? It made a lot of sense.

Now, EVERY good team does that, most possessions, regular season or playoffs. And defensively, switching has become such the norm that teams allow them to. There are only a few players who try to fight around screens and not allow the switch. All too often the teams designated defender could not be more happy to switch off his assignment to the lesser player without the ball.

So now we've got the teams best offensive player on the other teams worst defensive players. Resulting in an easier iso shot attempt, a blow by into the paint, or extra help coming, either of which reliably collapses the defense and creates quality shots for players that might not have existed in a prior era when players just attacked their assigned matchup.

This is another reason scoring is up. And another reason you can't really compare stats era to era. Too much has changed about the way the game is played on even an individual level.

Side note ... the hunting matchups in the 2016 Finals was an adjustment to the fact that the Warriors had started blindly switching every P&R which had been working amazingly well.

By no coincidence, they brought in Mike Brown the following year and started dreaming up ways to improve their P&R defense which included having their players switch back to their man whenever the opportunity presented and some other tweaks to protect Steph.

Fact is, whatever works will quickly become common place for both players and teams. Jim O'Brien had the Celtics firing up 3pters at a high rate but because they never made if far in the playoffs, it was dismissed.

Wince Carter used to be a special egg because he could occasionally knock down a a desperation heave 3pter with a defender right on him while falling out of bounds from nearly 30ft.

Is there a team in the league without a player who can make that shot?

[The Explorer]

More players are more skilled then ever. The top 10 across any era is comparable. It's the roleplayers who are so much better today.

It's also true that scoring today is easier than it's ever been. The game has officiated defense out of it. Foul baiting, and ticky tack fouls made offense easier than ever.

Today's players, with the returning of 90s physicality, and hand checking would result in probably 1 30ppg scorer per season, lower scoring games, and the best damn basketball product weve ever seen.

As far as scoring being up simply because players are better than ever? JJ's point?

Well, if you find yourself agreeing with JJ, just know that you're aligning with a man who thinks dinosaurs never existed.

The "90s physicality" myth needs to die.

Serious question: Do you honestly believe the game today is more physical than it was pre-2015?

"I'd allow for more physicality in the game. I'd allow for hand-checking, things like that. I feel like European basketball is more physical than the NBA is right now. I think the NBA needs to be more physical. Not to the sense of the way the Pistons were playing where guys are literally fearing for their safety when they're up in the air, not that kind of basketball. But something where you're not getting called for a body check or light hand check or things like that. I think it just makes the game ridiculous."

"It trickles down to NCAA. I could barely watch some of these games in the NCAA because, like, a player touches a guy with a thumb, and it's a foul in a situation where it costs them the game. That type of stuff drives me crazy. That would be the first thing I'd change."

"I think it needs to be more enjoyable. It's more enjoyable if there's a certain level of physicality. You get to see players go mano-a-mano a little bit instead of, Oh, my God, he put a hand on me, it's a foul. That's got to go, man.

"It challenges players to improve their skill level, too. If you can hand check, things like that, you really must be fundamentally sound, you really must be able to handle the ball to get past defenders."

- Kobe Bryant, 2018

[zero rings]

Old heads can't cope with the fact that today's players are better. The fact that the 3 pt line was there for decades, and they were too stubborn/dumb to use it, is also a source of embarrassment.

And young people ''can't cope with the fact that'' entire game is now built to pad offensive players stats because that is deemed to be the most exciting part of the game which is easily marketable to casual fan and way to make revenue. Unlike young fans old fans have decades of experience of following the sport´and how rule changes affected it.

I’m not a young fan. I’m not even a fan of the 3 point heavy game, aesthetically speaking. I’m just tired of hearing people act like today’s players aren’t more skilled, that teams aren’t smarter, and the only difference is some nebulous rule change. It’s not true and it’s beyond tiresome. If you don’t like it turn off the TV and take a nap.

[nikster]

legit shocking how effective the bulls full court press was in the 90s, really highlights the lack of ball-handling teams had back in the day:

Watch on YouTube

I mean yea the Knicks did that to themselves playing defensive line-ups, but still shocking.

No way this works against modern offenses.

Didn't one world cups totally shut down Giannis by using press and double teams... These scrubs (with no athletic bone in their body) which according you lots wouldn't even make anywhere near NBA just shutting down the best player in the world. Curious.

Yeah Giannis is not a primary ball handler and the Greek team had no strong ball handlers....

You saw what happened the next time Giannis played international competition right?

[og15]

The "90s physicality" myth needs to die.

Serious question: Do you honestly believe the game today is more physical than it was pre-2015?

"I'd allow for more physicality in the game. I'd allow for hand-checking, things like that. I feel like European basketball is more physical than the NBA is right now. I think the NBA needs to be more physical. Not to the sense of the way the Pistons were playing where guys are literally fearing for their safety when they're up in the air, not that kind of basketball. But something where you're not getting called for a body check or light hand check or things like that. I think it just makes the game ridiculous."

"It trickles down to NCAA. I could barely watch some of these games in the NCAA because, like, a player touches a guy with a thumb, and it's a foul in a situation where it costs them the game. That type of stuff drives me crazy. That would be the first thing I'd change."

"I think it needs to be more enjoyable. It's more enjoyable if there's a certain level of physicality. You get to see players go mano-a-mano a little bit instead of, Oh, my God, he put a hand on me, it's a foul. That's got to go, man.

"It challenges players to improve their skill level, too. If you can hand check, things like that, you really must be fundamentally sound, you really must be able to handle the ball to get past defenders."

- Kobe Bryant, 2018

Its funny, because what Kobe says is actually cool, but many fans thinking they are arguing the same thing as him will be pointing to the Bad Boys Pistons as the sign of physicality when that’s just dangerous play.

Kobe said bring back hand checking, but let’s understand what he means, not bring back bad defense, but he clarifies that saying a light hand check. Technically the rules have some leeway for light contact that doesn’t impeded the offensive player, “momentarily touch”.

I don’t mind light hand checking, but it is also a definition game, what is light, did it impede the player, that’s subjective, though if you say no hand checking, it’s yes or no, not a judgement call.

The issue is that offensive players can use their arms to move you, etc without being as likely to get a call against them. It should be fair.

[The Servant]

Old heads can't cope with the fact that today's players are better. The fact that the 3 pt line was there for decades, and they were too stubborn/dumb to use it, is also a source of embarrassment.

Shooting at the level of the best nba players is a very difficult skill to develop. That doesn’t just happen overnight. Training and coaching methods develop over time that’s why we saw a gradual adoption of the 3 pointer.

Even still, it's crazy how long it took for players to cut out long 2's and replace them with 3's. It's not like the math is all that complicated.

It blows my mind that the NBA took until the 2010s to really understand the value of the 3 pointer. I swear I figured this out when I was in grade 2 playing NBA jam and chucked a lot of 3s with good 3 point shooting teams.

An embarrassment for older players who were taking 20 footers.

[danvato]

all these highlighly talented players and shooters AND analytics where all here 3 or 4 years ago, there were no 140+ scoring games every god damn game day.

[NBA4Lyfe]

transition take foul... make it legal again please

[aggo]

im mid-30s and I grew up watching basketball in the 90s.


for me there are 2 or 3 things that stick out on the differences.


1/ pace. in the 90s you walked the ball up in half court and then dump it into the elbow. that's how possessions started. you play 2 bigs and each of them are inside the 3pt line on each elbow.

2/ fouls. JJ is both right and wrong. yes, the league today is so much more highly skilled and everyone can shoot and move. no offense to players like Steve Kerr, but his type of player-profile would see 0 playing time in today's nba because he couldn't shoot and move and defend.

but theres a huge difference when you argue "physicality"

90% flagrant fouls today were common fouls in the early 90s. Today on a chase down block if u catch the opponents head on a swipe its a flagrant atleast 50% of the time. in the 90s it was 5%.

if you dunked on a guy with contact and gave him a brief stare down in the 90s, the ball gets inbounded and no one blinks, even the guy that got stared down. part of the game. today, you get teched up and refs today still cant even figure out the difference between you hanging on the rim to stop your momentum and calling a tech for hanging on the rim.


3/ defense. for me this is the biggest difference in today's game. in a single game you can see a 2-3 zone, a strong side flood to clog the paint with defenders pre-rotating on the weak side 1 pass before the strong-weak side ball swing actually happens, and every single type of pnr coverage invented all in a single game. in the 90s you didnt see this level of sophistication at all.

Shaq couldn't shoot. Would he be able to play in today's nba?

he would dominate. watch his agility in 90s Orlando.


also in today's NBA you have coaches on the forefront of trying to invent **** all the time on both sides of the ball. Look at how Budenholz invented defending James Harden by putting a defender behind him. Look at how GS proved u can win a championship by playing small > 50% of the time. Look at today how much more dribble handoff there is vs even 5 years ago.

you'd be a complete moron troll to think shaq or Yao couldn't **** up today's league with the same amount of effort.

[ScrantonBulls]

The biggest reason why "Players are more skilled" and that is the reason for increased scoring argument is so flawed is because other sports exist to. Yet they have not had this offensive explosion. So that must mean NBA players are improving so much quicker than they are, which is dumb and obviously not true. Or the rules have benefited offense a lot.

Comparing completely different sports makes zero sense... Like none at all. There was something that was very underutilized (3 point shots) and the players adapted and mastered the shot.

If you really want a comparison, look at baseball. Statisticians figured out how important on base percentage (OBP) is, and they also ditched the age old myth that a strikeout is worse than making an out from contact. What was the result? Players taking FAR more walks, and striking out more. You get the 3 true outcome players - walk, strikeout, homerun. Stealing bases was a dying art because they learned that the outs from stolen bases weren't worth it. All of that got really old quick. It was such an issue that the MLB had to change rules to combat it. They shortened the bases to encourage more stolen bases, and banned the shift to encourage more contact/base hits.

The NBA and MLB completely changed with a better understanding of stats.

[DOT]

My favorite part of these threads is people who haven't watched a game from the 90s in 30 years saying they remember every game perfectly

Or them pulling up playoff games as proof

Show me a game in the middle of January between 2 teams that would go on to win 30-ish games that year and tell me it's as good as you remember lol

I guarantee you not a single person here was watching on January 11th, 1992 as the big 3 of Mitch Richmond, Lionel Simmons, and Wayman Tisdale of the Kings take down the Moses Malone and Dale Ellis Bucks in OT, and if you did, you don't remember nearly as much about it as you would the Lakers-Rockets game from 2 days ago.

[Roscoe Sheed]

My favorite part of these threads is people who haven't watched a game from the 90s in 30 years saying they remember every game perfectly

Or them pulling up playoff games as proof

Show me a game in the middle of January between 2 teams that would go on to win 30-ish games that year and tell me it's as good as you remember lol

I guarantee you not a single person here was watching on January 11th, 1992 as the big 3 of Mitch Richmond, Lionel Simmons, and Wayman Tisdale of the Kings take down the Moses Malone and Dale Ellis Bucks in OT, and if you did, you don't remember nearly as much about it as you would the Lakers-Rockets game from 2 days ago.

You wouldn’t see as many 3s- although Date Ellis could really shoot the ball, but you’d see some nice post play from Moses and Tisdale- I’d appreciate variety like that in the current game

[The-Stallion70]

Legler is honestly too good/smart for ESPN, his material gets glossed over in favor of stupid Perkins or Stehen A click bait and hot takes

[prophet_of_rage]

ehh idk. To me there is a lot more ticky tacky fouls nowadays compared to early 00s and before. They abolished the hand check which hurts the defense alot. Yea I agree players are more skilled today and they go to the hoop more. But back then a little guy like Allen Iverson goes to the rim and Shaq is there to put him on his back, that doesn't happen as much in todays game where the big man deliberately knocks the little guards down on their behinds just for going to the hoop to intimidate them.

We can all agree the pace is much MUCH more faster today which helps scoring go up. Also back then the mid range was a huge part of the game. Most shots were from the mid range and the best scorers shot the ball from mid range most of the time. Now alot of the shots are from the 3 or layup. So it's higher percentage shots from the paint or the 3 pt line. Players don't shoot those long range 2s like the Duncan, KG, Webber, Durk, Kobe etc.. did back then, they might as well take the 3 if you're going to shoot a long range shot instead. All in all, yes the game has evolved kinda.

Handchecking below the free throw line still exists face up players render the hand check useless.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[ForeverTFC]

Old heads can't cope with the fact that today's players are better. The fact that the 3 pt line was there for decades, and they were too stubborn/dumb to use it, is also a source of embarrassment.

This always gets me. If you want me to believe they were just as good and could have hit the 3s if they were just allowed to take them, you then have to cede that the league was filled with a bunch of idiots. You mean to tell me the goal of the game is to outscore your opponent but you decided taking the shot that gives you more points is not something you're going to do out of some misplaced pride or some attachment to the purity of the game?

[HotelVitale]

The "90s physicality" myth needs to die.

Serious question: Do you honestly believe the game today is more physical than it was pre-2015?

"I'd allow for more physicality in the game. I'd allow for hand-checking, things like that. I feel like European basketball is more physical than the NBA is right now. I think the NBA needs to be more physical. Not to the sense of the way the Pistons were playing where guys are literally fearing for their safety when they're up in the air, not that kind of basketball. But something where you're not getting called for a body check or light hand check or things like that. I think it just makes the game ridiculous."

"It trickles down to NCAA. I could barely watch some of these games in the NCAA because, like, a player touches a guy with a thumb, and it's a foul in a situation where it costs them the game. That type of stuff drives me crazy. That would be the first thing I'd change."

"I think it needs to be more enjoyable. It's more enjoyable if there's a certain level of physicality. You get to see players go mano-a-mano a little bit instead of, Oh, my God, he put a hand on me, it's a foul. That's got to go, man.

"It challenges players to improve their skill level, too. If you can hand check, things like that, you really must be fundamentally sound, you really must be able to handle the ball to get past defenders."

- Kobe Bryant, 2018

You guys know that most players are just making random observations and shooting from the hip right? They're not looking back at tape or doing studies on how the game has changed or anything, they don't really care about actually answering the question and are just talking like people do to pass the time.

Hand checking was really, really not a thing back in the 1980s or whenever. Go and watch games on youtube, you won't see hand-checking happening almost at all and it certainly doesn't have a significant effect on games. And when the Pistons were supposedly body-checking everyone who went up for a shot, the NBA was actually in one of its highest scoring/highest efficiency eras too.

[HotelVitale]

ehh idk. To me there is a lot more ticky tacky fouls nowadays compared to early 00s and before. They abolished the hand check which hurts the defense alot. Yea I agree players are more skilled today and they go to the hoop more. But back then a little guy like Allen Iverson goes to the rim and Shaq is there to put him on his back, that doesn't happen as much in todays game where the big man deliberately knocks the little guards down on their behinds just for going to the hoop to intimidate them.

Handchecking below the free throw line still exists face up players render the hand check useless.

There were way, way more fouls called back then, papi, and if you watch a few minutes of a game from the 2000s there's definitely not noticeably more physicality the defense is allowed to use. There's more bodies touching each other, sure, but that's because players are crammed together and there's a ton of posting up and trying to score from like 6 feet in. Here's a random game from 2005 featuring two pretty defense-y teams (BOS and IND): https://bit.ly/3UmVAWE

To my eyes more or less the same things were fouls then and now, and there seem to be about the same amount of 'was that really a foul?' or 'man, they missed that one' going on then and now. Reffing seems to have changed in small ways but I honestly don't see a big difference when watching things. (And by far the biggest difference is just the 3pt shooting, how 7+ guys on the court now will happily fire up any 28 footer they can get off--vs literally zero guys doing that in 2001, and only like 2-3 guys even looking at the rim from beyond the arc).

And yeah hand-checking was never a big thing, become a kind of urban legend at this point. Also most players use picks or DHOs on the perimeter now so it'd be completely irrelevant.

[ScrantonBulls]

My favorite part of these threads is people who haven't watched a game from the 90s in 30 years saying they remember every game perfectly

Or them pulling up playoff games as proof

Show me a game in the middle of January between 2 teams that would go on to win 30-ish games that year and tell me it's as good as you remember lol

I guarantee you not a single person here was watching on January 11th, 1992 as the big 3 of Mitch Richmond, Lionel Simmons, and Wayman Tisdale of the Kings take down the Moses Malone and Dale Ellis Bucks in OT, and if you did, you don't remember nearly as much about it as you would the Lakers-Rockets game from 2 days ago.

So much this. I know not to take somebody seriously if they say "lol you never even watched player XX play. your opinion is invalid." That's what we call the MavsDirk41 special. It's usually and argument somebody makes when they have nothing else. The human memory is not good at remember intricate details. A person's memory from games 30 years ago is complete ****. That's why we use statistics to tell a story, or go back and rewatch full games if you so desire.

[ScrantonBulls]

Serious question: Do you honestly believe the game today is more physical than it was pre-2015?

"I'd allow for more physicality in the game. I'd allow for hand-checking, things like that. I feel like European basketball is more physical than the NBA is right now. I think the NBA needs to be more physical. Not to the sense of the way the Pistons were playing where guys are literally fearing for their safety when they're up in the air, not that kind of basketball. But something where you're not getting called for a body check or light hand check or things like that. I think it just makes the game ridiculous."

"It trickles down to NCAA. I could barely watch some of these games in the NCAA because, like, a player touches a guy with a thumb, and it's a foul in a situation where it costs them the game. That type of stuff drives me crazy. That would be the first thing I'd change."

"I think it needs to be more enjoyable. It's more enjoyable if there's a certain level of physicality. You get to see players go mano-a-mano a little bit instead of, Oh, my God, he put a hand on me, it's a foul. That's got to go, man.

"It challenges players to improve their skill level, too. If you can hand check, things like that, you really must be fundamentally sound, you really must be able to handle the ball to get past defenders."

- Kobe Bryant, 2018

You guys know that most players are just making random observations and shooting from the hip right? They're not looking back at tape or doing studies on how the game has changed or anything, they don't really care about actually answering the question and are just talking like people do to pass the time.

Hand checking was really, really not a thing back in the 1980s or whenever. Go and watch games on youtube, you won't see hand-checking happening almost at all and it certainly doesn't have a significant effect on games. And when the Pistons were supposedly body-checking everyone who went up for a shot, the NBA was actually in one of its highest scoring/highest efficiency eras too.

Thank you. I've always said that using a quote some NBA player spouted off as evidence for an argument is weak. Some people act like because a guy was gifted enough athletically to play in the NBA, their basketball opinion is automatically correct. Isiah Thomas is regarded as an all time point guard. He should be a basketball genius, right? Nope. He is probably the worst GM in history.