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Official Trade Thread Part XLVI

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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#221 » by FAH1223 » Fri Feb 2, 2024 8:08 pm

badinage wrote:If Kuzma is only going to net one first-round pick — and from a team that is late in the pecking order (as Dallas and Sacramento are), then I dearly hope they get back a young player who has shown flashes and who could emerge as he develops. But who? Jaden Hardy on Dallas and who else?

That Aldridge piece is awful in its characterization of what Beal did. He didn’t HAVE to go to Phoenix only. Letter of the law said that that was within his right. Spirit of the law would have been to say to the franchise that drafted, developed, nurtured, and gave you the keys: here are 4-5 teams I’d consider. To not present what happened — to buy into the player’s bullshxt, the agent’s bullshxt — is disheartening. (Typical, though, of a certain kind of corporate journalism that is all about pragmatism and acceptance of the rules and rule of money.) Fact: Beal screwed the Wizards, and caused the team to lose, too, on KP and not get real value.

What I don’t get: why first-round picks are so suddenly difficult to come by AND ALSO why second-round picks are suddenly seen as having some sort of value they didn’t have even just three years ago. What’s happening?

Re: first-rounders. 5-10 years ago, a player like Tyus Jones — smart, good shooter, great decision-maker — *undeniably* would have netted a FRP from a playoff team trying to make a push. Why not now?

If all he nets is two seconds, Winger/Dawkins should tell a fellow GM to GTFOH. Don’t trade him. Don’t cave. They’re so desperate for picks, any picks, they’ve been so grateful for crumbs. It’s undignified. It has to stop.

I wouldn’t trade Kuzma for less than a FRP + a young gun who might take a step or two.

Also? I don’t think a burn-it-to-build-it-back GM like Winger understands that you can’t just be an utter joke for three years. The thinking is: well, three years — but look where we’ll be. And maybe. But maybe not. Dallas still isn’t good. Atlanta. Sacramento is much better but still not really good. Etc.

And I really dislike having the machinery exposed, as Winger and Co. are doing. Every game is a reminder that this team isn’t trying to win. Isn’t. Trying. To. Win. The entire point of a game and of a sport. Weeks of this. Months of it. All meaningless.
And cynical — so cynical.

Why pay attention? Why doesn’t Winger — or, for that matter, any GM of any team in any sport that disdains trying to win — just say to the fans: “Look, folks, we’ll see you in 4 years; do what you need to: read books, see some movies, spend time cooking, etc. If things change — if the timetable speeds up and we are committed to trying to win games — we’ll reach back out. But otherwise? We’re not counting on you, and we’re not blaming you either. We aren’t going to sell tickets — we’ll fill the arena with blow-up dolls and create some bullshxt spectacle with dancers and magicians and whatnot. We’ll update you once a month via email, unless you choose to opt out — which is totally okay; we get it; we would too!”

If it’s entirely reasonable/within the letter of the law to NOT try and to be so open about it, why not be entirely open? Burn the whole effing apparatus to the ground. Don’t have fans attend games, or, if you simply feel you must, don’t charge them. A gesture of goodness. A way of saying: we understand and we’re sorry. And getting these players and execs out into the city and doing actual things (as opposed to the kind of photo op/feel-good horseshxt that they do now) — public works, and in all parts of DC, Md., and Va. Construction. Directing traffic. Re-facing buildings. Etc. As a way of paying back and paying penance. As a way of saying: we are here to serve, while we build back our tattered reputation.

Instead, what we have is business as per yoozh. Uninspiredness. A lack of ideas. A lack of understanding.


First round picks have way more value because of the CBA.

The teams that are approaching the tax at the first apron or the second apron need cheap young talent to round out the roster. A cost controlled rookie contract is valuable especially if players can play above it.

Look at DEN. They are getting production from guys like Watson, Braun who are on their rookie deals while Joker is on a supermax, Murray is making big money, Michael Porter is on a huge rookie extension, and Gordon is making good money.

That's the only way these teams can avoid the steeper penalties of the luxury tax.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#222 » by 9 and 20 » Fri Feb 2, 2024 10:31 pm

Appreciate the long, sad lament of So Wiz fandom. Ulysses, War and Peace, and Washington Wizards RealGM. Poetic stories of epic tragedy and triumph - great dramas of human interaction and fallibility.

In the end, we gonna be butt for a while. Buckle up buttercup. Winger and Dawkins getting ready to cook.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#223 » by badinage » Fri Feb 2, 2024 11:27 pm

^ ^ I mean, sure, yeah. We can hope.

But this failing hard-and-on-purpose — and for four years — has to yield a supa-dupa star. Has to. Without it, the failure will have … failed.

Winger can swing deals, and get the draft picks for Dawkins and Schlenk to grab talent. But here’s the thing: to endure this kind of humiliation and losing, the result cannot be a collection of talent like the Hawks have, or the Nets, or the Kings, or the Pelicans, or the Mavs, or the Knicks, or even Philly. The result has to be a supa-dupa star via the draft, and two stars along with him. It has to be OKC — not just in process, but in result.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#224 » by trast66 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 12:20 am

badinage wrote:^ ^ I mean, sure, yeah. We can hope.

But this failing hard-and-on-purpose — and for four years — has to yield a supa-dupa star. Has to. Without it, the failure will have … failed.

Winger can swing deals, and get the draft picks for Dawkins and Schlenk to grab talent. But here’s the thing: to endure this kind of humiliation and losing, the result cannot be a collection of talent like the Hawks have, or the Nets, or the Kings, or the Pelicans, or the Mavs, or the Knicks, or even Philly. The result has to be a supa-dupa star via the draft, and two stars along with him. It has to be OKC — not just in process, but in result.


I like that “the failure will have failed”. The Knicks are a real fun team, I’ve dropped the Grizzlies for them as my second team to follow. I’d be happy if we get to that point by time of new arena,
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#225 » by payitforward » Sat Feb 3, 2024 1:23 am

Wow... very unusual for me to differ with so much of one of your posts, badinage, but in this case I do:

badinage wrote:If Kuzma is only going to net one first-round pick — and from a team that is late in the pecking order (as Dallas and Sacramento are), then I dearly hope they get back a young player who has shown flashes and who could emerge as he develops. But who? Jaden Hardy on Dallas and who else?...

But not with this! A r1 pick & a young player w/ potential would be terrific.

badinage wrote:...Beal ...didn’t HAVE to go to Phoenix only. Letter of the law said that that was within his right. Spirit of the law would have been to say to the franchise that drafted, developed, nurtured, and gave you the keys: here are 4-5 teams I’d consider....

How do we know (why should we think) that he didn't do exactly that? & 2 or 3 would have sufficed, for that matter.

As to the rest of the sentiment... the NBA is a business. The problem was the inane business decision to give a 5-year super-max contract with a no-trade clause to a never-great-though-once-very-good player entering the 12th year of his NBA career.

badinage wrote:...To not present what happened — to buy into the player’s bullshxt, the agent’s bullshxt — is disheartening. (Typical, though, of a certain kind of corporate journalism that is all about pragmatism and acceptance of the rules and rule of money.) Fact: Beal screwed the Wizards, and caused the team to lose, too, on KP and not get real value....

"Rules of money" -- you're right in the sense that we painted ourselves into a corner. Otherwise, I genuinely don't understand the emotional vector.

It also seems to me that you're over-estimating the value Beal commanded at this stage.

Nor is he playing particularly well for Phoenix. He's posting a .567 TS%, which is down from last year & way down from the prime years of his career. & that's on sharply reduced usage too. The rest of his numbers aren't much different from last season.

For that matter, even at this stage of their careers, Chris Paul is a far far better player than Brad. Nor is that a knock on Bradley Beal: CP3 is one of the greatest players in the history of the game. Even this year, in his 19th NBA season (!), he's much better than Brad -- & has played more minutes as well.

& we also got a slew of picks and swaps in the deal, plus Shamet.
I thought it was a terrific trade.

Now... it's certainly looking like the follow-on trade with GS failed.
Not just that Poole has been awful but that Rollins fouled his own nest, PBJ still hasn't shown anything, & -- above all! -- Trayce Jackson-Davis looks like he's going to be an outstanding NBA player.

But that has nothing to do w/ the Beal trade.

badinage wrote:...What I don’t get: why first-round picks are so suddenly difficult to come by AND ALSO why second-round picks are suddenly seen as having some sort of value they didn’t have even just three years ago. What’s happening?...

Keep in mind that the considerable expansion of NCAA basketball & the growing value of Euro players both result in way more/better talent in the draft.& more advanced analytical tools have made it clear that R2 picks produce a lot more good players than was once the case.

badinage wrote:...5-10 years ago, a player like Tyus Jones — smart, good shooter, great decision-maker — *undeniably* would have netted a FRP from a playoff team trying to make a push. Why not now?...

I'm not sure that's true, but even granting it the answer is more or less the same as the one just above. E.g. look at Jalen Brunson's history as a pro.

badinage wrote:...If all he nets is two seconds, Winger/Dawkins should tell a fellow GM to GTFOH. Don’t trade him. Don’t cave. They’re so desperate for picks, any picks, they’ve been so grateful for crumbs. It’s undignified. It has to stop....

Wait...! If R2 picks have become more valuable, then this "crumbs" idea goes by the wayside! :)

badinage wrote:...I wouldn’t trade Kuzma for less than a FRP + a young gun who might take a step or two....

Sigh... when you go into the market to make a deal, you take what the market gives you. Period. If no one wants to pay much for Kuz, that means Kuz isn't worth all that much. Period.

badinage wrote:...Also? I don’t think a burn-it-to-build-it-back GM like Winger understands that you can’t just be an utter joke for three years....

Respectfully... I don't think there's anything about the NBA that either you or I understand nearly as well as Michael Winger or Will Dawkins. TBH, I don't think it's even close.

badinage wrote:...And I really dislike having the machinery exposed, as Winger and Co. are doing. Every game is a reminder that this team isn’t trying to win. Isn’t. Trying. To. Win. The entire point of a game and of a sport....

The players & coaches are trying to win every single game! When they throw the ball up, both teams try to win the tip off, then they try to win the game.

I don't know whether we'll rebuild successfully enough to win a title. But, I'd sure rather try than live with unending seasons akin to the last few!

But that's just me. You have every right to feel differently -- goes without saying!
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#226 » by penbeast0 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 1:40 am

NBA incentives are wrong. What if the top number of ping pong balls went to the team that had the BEST non-playoff record, then second best non-playoff, then worst playoff, etc. Most teams make the playoff so worst in league is still getting a decent 1st but they might have to build a bit to get the best college player and not just tank for 3 years. Incentives are to tank now, that would stop that and hopefully the difference in revenue between playin and no playin plus the relatively small difference in odds between worst and 3rd to worst would keep teams from blatantly tanking to avoid making the playoffs like (Houston?) did one year.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#227 » by gesa2 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 1:52 am

badinage wrote:^ ^ I mean, sure, yeah. We can hope.

But this failing hard-and-on-purpose — and for four years — has to yield a supa-dupa star. Has to. Without it, the failure will have … failed.

Winger can swing deals, and get the draft picks for Dawkins and Schlenk to grab talent. But here’s the thing: to endure this kind of humiliation and losing, the result cannot be a collection of talent like the Hawks have, or the Nets, or the Kings, or the Pelicans, or the Mavs, or the Knicks, or even Philly. The result has to be a supa-dupa star via the draft, and two stars along with him. It has to be OKC — not just in process, but in result.

Has to be? Has to be or what? We were the f’ing Hawks, Nets or Kings before we traded Brad. There is no alternative. We have to take our shot and hope Winger and Dawkins’ talent + luck equals a high level star or three.
Making extreme statements like "only" sounds like there are "no" Jokics in this draft? Jokic is an engine that was drafted in the 2nd round. Always a chance to see diamond dropped by sloppy burgular after a theft.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#228 » by payitforward » Sat Feb 3, 2024 2:31 am

nate33 wrote:
badinage wrote:If Kuzma is only going to net one first-round pick — and from a team that is late in the pecking order (as Dallas and Sacramento are), then I dearly hope they get back a young player who has shown flashes and who could emerge as he develops. But who? Jaden Hardy on Dallas and who else?

Agreed. If all Kuzma is worth is one middle-to-late FRP, then keep him. ...

I don't understand this....

Perhaps you mean if that's all he's worth now -- i.e. that he is likely to be worth more in the future. In that case... sure. But, I don't see what would support that calculation, so if that's what you're thinking I hope you'll explain the thinking behind that conclusion.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#229 » by nate33 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 2:36 am

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:
badinage wrote:If Kuzma is only going to net one first-round pick — and from a team that is late in the pecking order (as Dallas and Sacramento are), then I dearly hope they get back a young player who has shown flashes and who could emerge as he develops. But who? Jaden Hardy on Dallas and who else?

Agreed. If all Kuzma is worth is one middle-to-late FRP, then keep him. ...

I don't understand this....

Perhaps you mean if that's all he's worth now -- i.e. that he is likely to be worth more in the future. In that case... sure. But, I don't see what would support that calculation, so if that's what you're thinking I hope you'll explain the thinking behind that conclusion.

His contract supports that calculation
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#230 » by 9 and 20 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 2:39 am

penbeast0 wrote:NBA incentives are wrong. What if the top number of ping pong balls went to the team that had the BEST non-playoff record, then second best non-playoff, then worst playoff, etc. Most teams make the playoff so worst in league is still getting a decent 1st but they might have to build a bit to get the best college player and not just tank for 3 years. Incentives are to tank now, that would stop that and hopefully the difference in revenue between playin and no playin plus the relatively small difference in odds between worst and 3rd to worst would keep teams from blatantly tanking to avoid making the playoffs like (Houston?) did one year.


Grundle would have loved this. The man specialized in building either the worst playoff team or the best lottery team, whether he meant to or not.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#231 » by 9 and 20 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 2:43 am

gesa2 wrote:
badinage wrote:^ ^ I mean, sure, yeah. We can hope.

But this failing hard-and-on-purpose — and for four years — has to yield a supa-dupa star. Has to. Without it, the failure will have … failed.

Winger can swing deals, and get the draft picks for Dawkins and Schlenk to grab talent. But here’s the thing: to endure this kind of humiliation and losing, the result cannot be a collection of talent like the Hawks have, or the Nets, or the Kings, or the Pelicans, or the Mavs, or the Knicks, or even Philly. The result has to be a supa-dupa star via the draft, and two stars along with him. It has to be OKC — not just in process, but in result.

Has to be? Has to be or what? We were the f’ing Hawks, Nets or Kings before we traded Brad. There is no alternative. We have to take our shot and hope Winger and Dawkins’ talent + luck equals a high level star or three.


Wiz have been kings of Stringer Bell's 40 degree days for decades now, and nobody cares about a 40 degree day. NBA equivalent is 35 wins. You don't suck, you're not good, you're just boring and forgettable. We've stuck there since the damn 70's. Maybe time to try something new.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#232 » by payitforward » Sat Feb 3, 2024 2:51 am

gesa2 wrote:
badinage wrote:...We were the f’ing Hawks, Nets or Kings before we traded Brad....

Last year the Kings went 48-34, the Nets went 45-37, & Atlanta went 41-41 (after posting 41-31 in the shortened '20-21 season & 43-39 in '21-22).

So, no, we were not the Hawks or Nets or Kings before we traded Brad. We were a 35 win team. At best.

In the last 5 years our record has been 32-50, 25-47, 34-38, 35-47 & 35-47. Nor did we have any reason whatever to imagine that keeping Brad & KP gave us a chance to improve.

Time to start over. Which is what we're doing, Hallelujah!!
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#233 » by RinseRepeat » Sat Feb 3, 2024 8:38 am

you trade Kuzma for a first and young player, not only for the return, but to get out from under his contract and give his minutes to younger player like Bagley. Who, in turn, can then have the opportunity to build up his own trade value or God forbid, solidify his status as a viable starter at a much better salary. Adding young talent and actually playing and developing that talent is priority #1, not wins. We actually have some pretty compelling pieces. No #1 or maybe even #2 guys but that's what the draft picks are for, to either draft that person or use them to acquire one via trade. Poole should never have happened. Even as a tank commander he does more harm than good. Best case scenario is he's trade fodder salary used to acquire a disgruntled or underutilized vet that can actually help us win games come 2025.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#234 » by FAH1223 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 7:44 pm

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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#235 » by AFM » Sat Feb 3, 2024 8:07 pm

Four second rounders, somebody call PIF and make sure he's okay
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#236 » by Jkam31 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 9:01 pm

Frichuela wrote:
tleikheen wrote:
Siakam is better than Kuzma. Yeah, his contract is worse, but teams will pay a premium for a guy who is a legit #2 guy on a contender versus Kuzma who might be conceivably capable of being a #3 on a contender.


You dont avg 22 pts in the NBA and maybe be a #3 on a contender . Right now by their play this year Siakam is not 12 million dollars better than Kuzma. On a losing team Siakam is avging 22 pts/ 6rebs ,4+ assists ,on a losing team Kuzma is avging 22 pts, rebs and 4+ assists. Kuzma will be coveted on a team like the Kings or Mavs and probably play just as well as Siakam does with Indiana BUT at 12 million $$'s less.


And less draft compensation to boot!

Now that Siakam is gone from the trade market, I think this 3-way trade between WAS, SAC and CHI is a possibility:

WAS gets Pat Williams +the dead money of Ball+SAC 2026 1st (unprotected)+POR 2024 1st (via Chicago)
SAC gets Kuzma
CHI gets Barnes+Huerter+one of our many 2nds


The Pat Williams interest is based on rumors a few weeks ago that the Wizards were interested in him. His stats look good (great 3PT %, steals and blocks) bar subpar rebounding. He may be primed for a jump (only 22 years old).

A line-up of PG-Bilal-Pat Williams+Deni+C would have a lot of length and defensive potential (above average weak side shot blocking and steals).


Zero chance we trade Barnes and Huerter for Kuzma they’ve picked up there play doubt we trade either for Kuzma
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#237 » by 9 and 20 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 11:03 pm

I'm glad we seem committed to trading Jones. I dunno of Jones would be willing to sign that same kind of descending contract Kuz signed though. That might also be a good outcome. At least we know Winger probably won't be bamboozled into a Bert-type of contract offer.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#238 » by dckingsfan » Sun Feb 4, 2024 1:56 am

AFM wrote:Four second rounders, somebody call PIF and make sure he's okay

Yeah, I guess they want some kind of first rounder. I think PIF and I would be on the same page taking the 4 second rounders vs. not trading him at all... but that is the art of negotiation. Going to be interesting for sure.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#239 » by nate33 » Sun Feb 4, 2024 2:15 am

dckingsfan wrote:
AFM wrote:Four second rounders, somebody call PIF and make sure he's okay

Yeah, I guess they want some kind of first rounder. I think PIF and I would be on the same page taking the 4 second rounders vs. not trading him at all... but that is the art of negotiation. Going to be interesting for sure.

Yeah. I'm pretty confident they would ultimately trade Tyus for four 2RP's, but it can't hurt to wait until the last minute and see if a better offer is out there.

The way I see it, I'd probably keep Tyus and attempt to resign him if the best deal available is two SRP's, particularly of one of those two picks is lower than #45. But if we get two or more good SRP's, or one late FRP, then I'd trade him. I like Tyus, but he is obviously a caretaker for the rebuild, not a piece for the future.
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Re: Official Trade Thread Part XLVI 

Post#240 » by payitforward » Sun Feb 4, 2024 3:17 am

RinseRepeat wrote:you trade Kuzma for a first and young player, not only for the return, but to get out from under his contract and give his minutes to younger player like Bagley. Who, in turn, can then have the opportunity to build up his own trade value or God forbid, solidify his status as a viable starter at a much better salary. Adding young talent and actually playing and developing that talent is priority #1, not wins...

Preach, Newbbie!! :)

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