Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition

[BlacJacMac]

Yeah I am sure being a career backup in a warm climate with an active night life is way more important than being a starter on a championship contender. I mean of course other contenders are beating down his door to replace guys like Brunson, Doncic, Lillard, Holdiay, SGA, Murray, ect…

Again, just because YOU promise him a starting spot doesn't mean the TIMBERWOLVES will. I hope the Wolves look beyond a guy who is killing it for a 9 win team that no other teams "gets up" to play against.

Have you looked at his Playoff numbers? Here are his last 2 Playoff series:

2022: 6 Games, 25 MPG, Shot 35/32.
2023: 6 Games, 20 MPG, Shot 31/16. 22 Assists vs 8 Turnovers.

And he gets hunted on defense in the Playoffs, because while he's a smart team defender that tries hard, he's not a capable man defender and is useless at the PoA.

Tell me who is better. We have limited money, Mike isn’t getting younger, we have no young PGs in the pipeline, and even if we could get a stud we have Ant, KAT and Jaden ahead of them in offensive priority.

As for playoff performance, I think we have a better overall team. I think that takes off some of the pressure on Tyus. As for Mike they are the same size and they can and will hunt Mike on defense just like Tyus. Either Tyus has improved on offense or he didn’t, time will tell.

You're projecting ideal versions of players over reality again. Jaden? He takes 9 shots and has a usage under 16. There is zero chance a stud PG would slot in behind Jaden on offense. He has moments where he looks like he could be bigger scorer and playmaker, but he still has a really janky handle and he needs situations for him to be just right to attack. If he was really ready to assume a bigger role, he'd do so.

I love Jaden, but he's taken no steps forward this year. He's probably the most frustrating player on the roster.

And I like Tyus, but I'm not convinced like you are that he's a legit starting NBA point guard. If he's just a poor man's version of a 36 year-old Conley, that's not worth it.

[winforlose]

Again, just because YOU promise him a starting spot doesn't mean the TIMBERWOLVES will. I hope the Wolves look beyond a guy who is killing it for a 9 win team that no other teams "gets up" to play against.

Have you looked at his Playoff numbers? Here are his last 2 Playoff series:

2022: 6 Games, 25 MPG, Shot 35/32.
2023: 6 Games, 20 MPG, Shot 31/16. 22 Assists vs 8 Turnovers.

And he gets hunted on defense in the Playoffs, because while he's a smart team defender that tries hard, he's not a capable man defender and is useless at the PoA.

Tell me who is better. We have limited money, Mike isn’t getting younger, we have no young PGs in the pipeline, and even if we could get a stud we have Ant, KAT and Jaden ahead of them in offensive priority.

As for playoff performance, I think we have a better overall team. I think that takes off some of the pressure on Tyus. As for Mike they are the same size and they can and will hunt Mike on defense just like Tyus. Either Tyus has improved on offense or he didn’t, time will tell.

You're projecting ideal versions of players over reality again. Jaden? He takes 9 shots and has a usage under 16. There is zero chance a stud PG would slot in behind Jaden on offense. He has moments where he looks like he could be bigger scorer and playmaker, but he still has a really janky handle and he needs situations for him to be just right to attack. If he was really ready to assume a bigger role, he'd do so.

I love Jaden, but he's taken no steps forward this year. He's probably the most frustrating player on the roster.

And I like Tyus, but I'm not convinced like you are that he's a legit starting NBA point guard. If he's just a poor man's version of a 36 year-old Conley, that's not worth it.

There’s nothing ideal about it, we need Jaden to contribute if we are going anywhere. I love Rudy but he is not a serious 3rd or 4th offensive option. His scoring comes from put backs and the occasional assisted dunk. We don’t run enough action for Rudy for Rudy to be a major offensive contributor in the average game. You could argue Mike is our third option, but Mike doesn’t shoot enough and isn’t willing enough to shoot. For context Mike has played 5 or 6 more games than Jaden but has only taken 19 more shots this season. Where you see the difference is Mike has 232 attempted 3s to Jaden’s 133. But, Jaden is still shooting 51.3/36.8/77.1 for the season.

[BlacJacMac]

And Jaden has done nothing to show he can handle more usage. He needs chaos to attack. He can’t do much against set defenses.

[winforlose]

And Jaden has done nothing to show he can handle more usage. He needs chaos to attack. He can’t do much against set defenses.

Jaden does create his own shot from time to time. But, he is not a primary initiator. A lot of talented offensive players are not.

[BlacJacMac]

And Jaden has done nothing to show he can handle more usage. He needs chaos to attack. He can’t do much against set defenses.

Jaden does create his own shot from time to time. But, he is not a primary initiator. A lot of talented offensive players are not.

Sure.

But the point was if we acquired a stud PG, he would not be behind Jaden on offense.

Jaden’s growth has pretty much flatlined right now. Thats not to say he’s peaked, but something needs to happen because he has the physical potential to be much more, but he needs to improve a lot in the mental aspects of the game.

[winforlose]

And Jaden has done nothing to show he can handle more usage. He needs chaos to attack. He can’t do much against set defenses.

Jaden does create his own shot from time to time. But, he is not a primary initiator. A lot of talented offensive players are not.

Sure.

But the point was if we acquired a stud PG, he would not be behind Jaden on offense.

Jaden’s growth has pretty much flatlined right now. Thats not to say he’s peaked, but something needs to happen because he has the physical potential to be much more, but he needs to improve a lot in the mental aspects of the game.

I feel like we are talking about some different things at once. Let me break it down like this.

1. We have 2 super max bigs, a rookie max (maybe supermax,) and a SF in the mid 20s next year. There are not a lot of studs you can afford to add to that. Reasonable expectations are important.

2. Jaden and Mike take around the same number of shots per game. When assessing who is the 3rd and who is the 4th option, shot attempts matter.

3. Jaden needs to be better on offense. No question or doubt, he needs to be better. That said, being better is not just being more efficient or scoring more points. For example Jaden had a couple nice drive and kick passes to 3 point shooters tonight. Jaden had a couple games in a row with big put backs, and Jaden has been offensive rebounding more recently. All of these things matter, and they all contribute to his overall offensive profile.

All of this is to say, Tyus hitting his open shots and creating for others is all he really needs to do on any given night. We aren’t asking him to drop 15-20 every night. I know this because Mike is averaging 10.7

[life_saver]

Schroeder seems like a realistic option if we are looking for a backup guard

[Domejandro]

For the record, Tyus Jones offered to take less money with Minnesota so he could stay, but Gersson Rosas let him walk.

But regardless, any trade for Tyus has to be based on performance this year, and I feel that trading for him would do that.

[Klomp]

A few thoughts on trading for Tyus.

First, I'd be much more confident in Jones production than Morris. Monte has played a grand total of 60 minutes this season with fairly awful production, while Jones has almost 1400 minutes of solid play.

Second, I've come to believe that replacing Anderson's role with Tyus and Brown would result in a moderate net gain on the court. There would be somewhat of a decline on the defensive end, but the increased shooting and playmaking are likely to result in a significantly larger improvement on offense. One of the biggest impacts could be in terms of turnovers due to the improved spacing (teams couldn't stack the paint to stop Ant and KAT as easily) and Jones great ass/to numbers.

Third, I think it's going to be critical to rest Mike a fair amount the rest of the way and having Tyus would make doing so far less painful. Tyus would also be incredible insurance in case Conley misses time in the playoffs (which at his age is fairly likely).

Fourth, as far as next season, adding Jones would give the Wolves two options to re-sign at PG and if the ownership is willing to spend the money I could see them bringing both back in 2024-25. We are going to be over the luxury tax line and probably the second apron, so going all in for a one season championship run would be a great way to kickoff the new ownership era.

One thought. While you would be more confident in Jones, remember that Connelly and Finch both have prior experience with Morris. I think that's a more significant piece of the equation than people want to give it credit for.

[winforlose]

A few thoughts on trading for Tyus.

First, I'd be much more confident in Jones production than Morris. Monte has played a grand total of 60 minutes this season with fairly awful production, while Jones has almost 1400 minutes of solid play.

Second, I've come to believe that replacing Anderson's role with Tyus and Brown would result in a moderate net gain on the court. There would be somewhat of a decline on the defensive end, but the increased shooting and playmaking are likely to result in a significantly larger improvement on offense. One of the biggest impacts could be in terms of turnovers due to the improved spacing (teams couldn't stack the paint to stop Ant and KAT as easily) and Jones great ass/to numbers.

Third, I think it's going to be critical to rest Mike a fair amount the rest of the way and having Tyus would make doing so far less painful. Tyus would also be incredible insurance in case Conley misses time in the playoffs (which at his age is fairly likely).

Fourth, as far as next season, adding Jones would give the Wolves two options to re-sign at PG and if the ownership is willing to spend the money I could see them bringing both back in 2024-25. We are going to be over the luxury tax line and probably the second apron, so going all in for a one season championship run would be a great way to kickoff the new ownership era.

One thought. While you would be more confident in Jones, remember that Connelly and Finch both have prior experience with Morris. I think that's a more significant piece of the equation than people want to give it credit for.

Morris is scaring me at this point. I get that he is just getting back from injury and needs to find his legs. But, he has played in 5 games and is looking like a non factor. I know it’s possible by March or April he could have his form back. But he has fresh legs, and the break isn’t going to help him. If he takes 3 months to get back to form he cannot help us.

[TwolvesFanRome]

I would like Schroeder...

[minimus]

For the record, Tyus Jones offered to take less money with Minnesota so he could stay, but Gersson Rosas let him walk.

But regardless, any trade for Tyus has to be based on performance this year, and I feel that trading for him would do that.

Plus did not even started any negotiations about Tyus extension. Even though a few players such as Teague and Butler were very supportive of Tyus as starter.

[minimus]

And Jaden has done nothing to show he can handle more usage. He needs chaos to attack. He can’t do much against set defenses.

Jaden does create his own shot from time to time. But, he is not a primary initiator. A lot of talented offensive players are not.

Sure.

But the point was if we acquired a stud PG, he would not be behind Jaden on offense.

Jaden’s growth has pretty much flatlined right now. Thats not to say he’s peaked, but something needs to happen because he has the physical potential to be much more, but he needs to improve a lot in the mental aspects of the game.

I feel like it is a very interesting aspect. I mean I expected a grow of Jaden in offense, but he is as Dane Moore says "Barometer of our offense", I agre he is not ready to be creator, but when there is flow in offense, he becomes a very impactful player. And my question is: would someone like Monte Morris or Tyus Jones be able to get the best from McDaniels? I mean based on our roster construction, and salary cap hell, we cant afford a high level scorer at backup PG, but maybe we can get one who can involve guys such as McDaniels, Gobert, Towns?

[FrenchMinnyFan]

I'm not too worry about offense. ANT and KAT can have good PO and Mike will level up when it's necessary, And to optimize our offense, ball movement is very important. Thre is a lot of games if you take out Mike data ( ASS/TO), we ended up with th reste of players TO the ball aas much as they give assist. This is devastating and will kill up at PO time. That's why i'm all in for Tyus.
It's not the perfect choice but we have with our salary structure limited options.

[moss_is_1]

I'm not too worry about offense. ANT and KAT can have good PO and Mike will level up when it's necessary, And to optimize our offense, ball movement is very important. Thre is a lot of games if you take out Mike data ( ASS/TO), we ended up with th reste of players TO the ball aas much as they give assist. This is devastating and will kill up at PO time. That's why i'm all in for Tyus.
It's not the perfect choice but we have with our salary structure limited options.

Kat has been either great or horrible in post season. I'm real worried about our offense because we can't take care of the ball. Kat, Ant, Kyle, Jaden are all prone to dumb turnovers trying to force a play that isn't there.

[jpatrick]

I'm not too worry about offense. ANT and KAT can have good PO and Mike will level up when it's necessary, And to optimize our offense, ball movement is very important. Thre is a lot of games if you take out Mike data ( ASS/TO), we ended up with th reste of players TO the ball aas much as they give assist. This is devastating and will kill up at PO time. That's why i'm all in for Tyus.
It's not the perfect choice but we have with our salary structure limited options.

Kat has been either great or horrible in post season. I'm real worried about our offense because we can't take care of the ball. Kat, Ant, Kyle, Jaden are all prone to dumb turnovers trying to force a play that isn't there.

What would reduce turnovers more, having another PG to be on the floor during the non-Conley minutes or adding a wing shooter to help space the floor? We do make dumb turnovers, but I see a lot of them as the result of driving into a packed paint.

In a perfect world we would get a shooter who could play with Conley and then also play backup PG minutes (oh Brogdon, how I wish you made less), but I don’t see that player as out there and obtainable.

[moss_is_1]

I'm not too worry about offense. ANT and KAT can have good PO and Mike will level up when it's necessary, And to optimize our offense, ball movement is very important. Thre is a lot of games if you take out Mike data ( ASS/TO), we ended up with th reste of players TO the ball aas much as they give assist. This is devastating and will kill up at PO time. That's why i'm all in for Tyus.
It's not the perfect choice but we have with our salary structure limited options.

Kat has been either great or horrible in post season. I'm real worried about our offense because we can't take care of the ball. Kat, Ant, Kyle, Jaden are all prone to dumb turnovers trying to force a play that isn't there.

What would reduce turnovers more, having another PG to be on the floor during the non-Conley minutes or adding a wing shooter to help space the floor? We do make dumb turnovers, but I see a lot of them as the result of driving into a packed paint.

In a perfect world we would get a shooter who could play with Conley and then also play backup PG minutes (oh Brogdon, how I wish you made less), but I don’t see that player as out there and obtainable.

That's a good question. I'm leaning towards needing a real shooter. We see the lane get so clogged when someone like Naw or Ant drive in then they go to kick it out in the corner and it's Slomo wide open and he drives it in to the packed paint again.

I think Jmac has been playing very good lately, but Finch doesn't seem to trust him and give him extended minutes.

[TimberKat]

I'm not too worry about offense. ANT and KAT can have good PO and Mike will level up when it's necessary, And to optimize our offense, ball movement is very important. Thre is a lot of games if you take out Mike data ( ASS/TO), we ended up with th reste of players TO the ball aas much as they give assist. This is devastating and will kill up at PO time. That's why i'm all in for Tyus.
It's not the perfect choice but we have with our salary structure limited options.

Kat has been either great or horrible in post season. I'm real worried about our offense because we can't take care of the ball. Kat, Ant, Kyle, Jaden are all prone to dumb turnovers trying to force a play that isn't there.

What would reduce turnovers more, having another PG to be on the floor during the non-Conley minutes or adding a wing shooter to help space the floor? We do make dumb turnovers, but I see a lot of them as the result of driving into a packed paint.

In a perfect world we would get a shooter who could play with Conley and then also play backup PG minutes (oh Brogdon, how I wish you made less), but I don’t see that player as out there and obtainable.

I think we do need both. That is why we are Conley and JMcL on the floor together. A little more ball handling, a little more passing, and Conley is a good spot up shooter. We could also solve the problem being a little more organized too. A lot of the TO are we try to force the issue.

[winforlose]

Kat has been either great or horrible in post season. I'm real worried about our offense because we can't take care of the ball. Kat, Ant, Kyle, Jaden are all prone to dumb turnovers trying to force a play that isn't there.

What would reduce turnovers more, having another PG to be on the floor during the non-Conley minutes or adding a wing shooter to help space the floor? We do make dumb turnovers, but I see a lot of them as the result of driving into a packed paint.

In a perfect world we would get a shooter who could play with Conley and then also play backup PG minutes (oh Brogdon, how I wish you made less), but I don’t see that player as out there and obtainable.

I think we do need both. That is why we are Conley and JMcL on the floor together. A little more ball handling, a little more passing, and Conley is a good spot up shooter. We could also solve the problem being a little more organized too. A lot of the TO are we try to force the issue.

An important part of this conversation is how the passes get to players. Question 1 is whether the pass is in the shot pocket or not. Question 2 is whether the past is crisp or slow. A slow pass allows the defense to adjust back. When the defense adjusts back guys try to drive and often get into the heart of the defense. Question 3 is sweet spots. Some shooters are better in the corners (Jaden,) some are better above the break (Karl,) and others at the elbows (not sure if this is Mike, but the eye test suggests he likes them.) Part of improving the offense is maximizing the situations leading to the shot and getting guys to commit to the long ball rather than drive. Once you do that now you can talk about transition 3s vs transition drives and long rebounds to kick outs for multiple 3 point attempts per possession. A movement shooter or wing shooter doesn’t address any of these factors related to our 6 above average volume 3 point shooters.

[NebWolvesFan]

Kat has been either great or horrible in post season. I'm real worried about our offense because we can't take care of the ball. Kat, Ant, Kyle, Jaden are all prone to dumb turnovers trying to force a play that isn't there.

What would reduce turnovers more, having another PG to be on the floor during the non-Conley minutes or adding a wing shooter to help space the floor? We do make dumb turnovers, but I see a lot of them as the result of driving into a packed paint.

In a perfect world we would get a shooter who could play with Conley and then also play backup PG minutes (oh Brogdon, how I wish you made less), but I don’t see that player as out there and obtainable.

I think we do need both. That is why we are Conley and JMcL on the floor together. A little more ball handling, a little more passing, and Conley is a good spot up shooter. We could also solve the problem being a little more organized too. A lot of the TO are we try to force the issue.

I do find it weird that Finch has tried out Jordan and Mike together for a few minutes. I do wonder if he's deciding if Tyus/Monte can play with Mike for a period of time. Could a Tyus/Mike/Ant/Jaden/KAT or Rudy lineup work if Kyle is moved in the deal.