2023-24 NY Knicks trade ideas, Part 4

[mpharris36]

yeah, they can't just carry that dead weight another season. and they have to pay brunson/randle the summer after. their total salary number is gonna be crazy. they might have to drop some of these role players.

they are a team operating over the cap. With an owner that has never cared about paying the tax. I don't think they are penny pinching.

it's not about penny pinching. the new cap rules basically make it that once you reach the 2nd apron you can't do much of anything. you're kind of stuck.

What are the penalties for the first apron?

The first apron hits when a team's payroll exceeds $172 million. At this point, the following restrictions are triggered:

Teams cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade if that player keeps them above the apron
Teams cannot sign a player waived during the regular season whose salary was over the $12.2 million midlevel exception
Salary matching in trades must be within 110 percent, rather than 125 percent for teams not above the apron

What are the penalties for the second apron?

All of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron:

No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception

Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include:

Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
Teams cannot include cash in a trade
Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons

These penalties are much more stringent than under the old CBA. Previously, owners with deep pockets could go well into the luxury tax as long as they were willing to pay. Now, teams who enter the second apron will have difficulty adding any sort of new talent via trades or free agent acquisitions.

Knicks are currently projected in the 140's and that is with the knicks picking up Fournier contract. The only player they are going to have to pay next year is potentially ihart.

I don't think the knicks are necessarily worried about Brunson and Randle down the line...that will eventually work its way out. They want to maximize there chance before they have to pay Brunson. They will figure out the rest later.

I don't really think the 2nd tax apron is in play next year. The knicks don't have big contracts right now which are the reason teams push into the 2nd tax apron.

[DE FENSE]

Brown seems the most realistic target. 2024 NYK 1st and Fournier probably gets it done.

I wouldn’t hate it. Brown makes us better.

You would think he'd be more popular around here considering how he showed out against the team that eliminated us last year. I agree, he makes us better. Lets see if it happens and at what cost.

[mpharris36]

it's not about penny pinching. the new cap rules basically make it that once you reach the 2nd apron you can't do much of anything. you can no longer even put two players together to trade for one player. i'm serious. look it up.

FWIW we should have around 75M under the 2nd apron with which to pay Anunoby, Hartenstein, Achiuwa, our picks, and whatever we do with the Fournier contract. So yes the 2nd apron restrictions are draconian, but avoiding the 2nd apron shouldn't be too tricky for us this summer.

Next summer we're probably gunna be ****.

but you have to plan for next summer now. you know brunson is getting a max and if randle is still here he is too. he's now a 3 time all-star, 2 time all nba player. if pascal is a max player, he's a max player.

I don't think the knicks really need a plan that far out. If you are really worried about it then Randle can just walk if he opts out and wants a lot more.

You are trying to maximize your championship potential next year. You deal with 2025-2026 when it comes. But next year there really isn't much of a threat to the 2nd tax apron.

[god shammgod]

they are a team operating over the cap. With an owner that has never cared about paying the tax. I don't think they are penny pinching.

it's not about penny pinching. the new cap rules basically make it that once you reach the 2nd apron you can't do much of anything. you're kind of stuck.

What are the penalties for the first apron?

The first apron hits when a team's payroll exceeds $172 million. At this point, the following restrictions are triggered:

Teams cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade if that player keeps them above the apron
Teams cannot sign a player waived during the regular season whose salary was over the $12.2 million midlevel exception
Salary matching in trades must be within 110 percent, rather than 125 percent for teams not above the apron

What are the penalties for the second apron?

All of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron:

No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception

Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include:

Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
Teams cannot include cash in a trade
Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons

These penalties are much more stringent than under the old CBA. Previously, owners with deep pockets could go well into the luxury tax as long as they were willing to pay. Now, teams who enter the second apron will have difficulty adding any sort of new talent via trades or free agent acquisitions.

Knicks are currently projected in the 140's and that is with the knicks picking up Fournier contract. The only player they are going to have to pay next year is potentially ihart.

I don't think the knicks are necessarily worried about Brunson and Randle down the line...that will eventually work its way out. They want to maximize there chance before they have to pay Brunson. They will figure out the rest later.

I don't really think the 2nd tax apron is in play next year.

it's not but you have to plan in advance to avoid it.

and they have to pay og too. and if they're interested in retaining precious whose value they're currently raising.

[DOT]

Knicks pick and Evan for Bruce Brown just feels like destined to happen

I'm trying to imagine an offense where both Brown and Hart are on the floor at the same time

I'm really struggling to see how that'd work.

[god shammgod]

FWIW we should have around 75M under the 2nd apron with which to pay Anunoby, Hartenstein, Achiuwa, our picks, and whatever we do with the Fournier contract. So yes the 2nd apron restrictions are draconian, but avoiding the 2nd apron shouldn't be too tricky for us this summer.

Next summer we're probably gunna be ****.

but you have to plan for next summer now. you know brunson is getting a max and if randle is still here he is too. he's now a 3 time all-star, 2 time all nba player. if pascal is a max player, he's a max player.

I don't think the knicks really need a plan that far out. If you are really worried about it then Randle can just walk if he opts out and wants a lot more.

You are trying to maximize your championship potential next year. You deal with 2025-2026 when it comes. But next year there really isn't much of a threat to the 2nd tax apron.

so keep evan but if it comes to it let randle walk for nothing ?

[cgf]

who is saying they wont trade randle with that other salary to get that star? Randle changed agents not sure he is in there long term plans beyond this season.


randle still makes less than most stars so yes Fournier or another 20ish MM salary will be important to be in that 40ish range.

Knicks clearly have prioritized on keeping Fournier deal for a while now

I agree with Sham. I think Fournier goes away if we don't trade him now.

If we're looking to re-sign iHart, Precious, and OG this offseason that likely adds 30-35 mil to the payroll if we keep Fournier. Once the lux tax is accounted for that's a huge salary commitment caused by a guy who isn't playing.

Per Katz they are likely to keep Fournier if they don't trade him.

Based on all the rumors it sounds like they are ok with going over Apron #1 but want to stay under Apron #2. That $18-$22mil contract can fit in there and sounds like what the Knicks are looking for.

The Knicks are still eyeing the upcoming summer for a big-star trade, league sources said. And they’d prefer to deal as little out of today’s rotation as they can to make that happen. Exchanging Fournier for expiring veterans could force them to include at least two of Robinson, Hart and Donte DiVincenzo along with Grimes in a deal this summer. That’s not what they want.

It’s why a buyout of Fournier, if the Knicks don’t trade him by Thursday, is unlikely. If he’s still on the roster past the deadline, picking up his $19 million 2024-25 team option is on the table, according to league sources, even though Fournier rarely ever plays — even when the group is missing nearly half of its rotation.

Fournier would provide the vehicle to bring in someone on the salary the Knicks prefer: eight figures and into $20 million. But based on the way New York has operated, it would be shocking if it dealt Fournier for an upcoming free agent. The Knicks want that new player to be under contract for next season, ensuring that they could include him in a larger trade for a star four or five months from now. Fournier earns $18.8 million this season and has a team option for 2024-25.

For an example of what not to look out for, let’s go back to the Detroit situation.

Dealing Fournier and a couple of second-round picks for Burks and Monté Morris could make some basketball sense for both teams, considering the money changing hands is similar. The Pistons receive future assets and the Knicks bring back a competent, no-nonsense point guard along with a known quantity in Burks. But contractually, it’s a no-no, considering both of those Pistons are on expiring deals.

Part of what I liked so much about my Lonzo + Fournier + POR FRP + WSH FRP <---> Caruso + Shamet + Craig <---> Kuzma + 24 NYK FRP idea was that we could break down Fournier's contract into 1 deal we'd definitely want to keep (Caruso) and another deal that we could hold onto for salary-matching or we could let go to help us avoid the 2nd apron (Shamet).

19M is a lot more work to budget around than 10M if we opted in without a trade that needed that salary already lined up.

[mpharris36]

it's not about penny pinching. the new cap rules basically make it that once you reach the 2nd apron you can't do much of anything. you're kind of stuck.

Knicks are currently projected in the 140's and that is with the knicks picking up Fournier contract. The only player they are going to have to pay next year is potentially ihart.

I don't think the knicks are necessarily worried about Brunson and Randle down the line...that will eventually work its way out. They want to maximize there chance before they have to pay Brunson. They will figure out the rest later.

I don't really think the 2nd tax apron is in play next year.

it's not but you have to plan in advance to avoid it.

and they have to pay og too. and if they're interested in retaining precious whose value they're currently raising.

OG's counting for about 20. But lets say we raise that another 10-15. That still shouldn't put risk on the 2nd apron.

I don't think Precious is a priority at all...with a healthy randle/og/mitch...precious is a 3rd stringer. He has been a nice stop gap with his defense but they aren't going to prioritize retaining precious...its not like an ihart situation.

[mpharris36]

but you have to plan for next summer now. you know brunson is getting a max and if randle is still here he is too. he's now a 3 time all-star, 2 time all nba player. if pascal is a max player, he's a max player.

I don't think the knicks really need a plan that far out. If you are really worried about it then Randle can just walk if he opts out and wants a lot more.

You are trying to maximize your championship potential next year. You deal with 2025-2026 when it comes. But next year there really isn't much of a threat to the 2nd tax apron.

so keep evan but if it comes to it let randle walk for nothing ?

that 2 years down the road...they are trying to trade for the star next year....to maximize brunson contract. Randle decision doesn't have to be made next year....he is under contract.

[cgf]

Knicks pick and Evan for Bruce Brown just feels like destined to happen

I'm trying to imagine an offense where both Brown and Hart are on the floor at the same time

I'm really struggling to see how that'd work.

Remember 2021?...


Luckily they shouldn't share the court too much. Some of the Randle-no-Brunson minutes will see both of them out there, but when Brunson's on the court they'll generally be fighting for the same minutes.

[DaGawd]

Knicks pick and Evan for Bruce Brown just feels like destined to happen

I'm trying to imagine an offense where both Brown and Hart are on the floor at the same time

I'm really struggling to see how that'd work.

is bruce brown that bad of a shooter? i’ve always remembered him as a willing and capable 3 point shooter

[cgf]

I don't think the knicks really need a plan that far out. If you are really worried about it then Randle can just walk if he opts out and wants a lot more.

You are trying to maximize your championship potential next year. You deal with 2025-2026 when it comes. But next year there really isn't much of a threat to the 2nd tax apron.

so keep evan but if it comes to it let randle walk for nothing ?

that 2 years down the road...they are trying to trade for the star next year....to maximize brunson contract. Randle decision doesn't have to be made next year....he is under contract.

Randle and Brunson can both opt out next summer.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Basically every source and rumor has the Knicks going in for a big move this summer. It is a good time with Brunson and Randle on relatively bargain deals. Whether they pull it off, I am not sure. But every contract helps, as long as they are not over the 2nd apron. I expect Fournier to be moved per the rumors.

[mpharris36]

so keep evan but if it comes to it let randle walk for nothing ?

that 2 years down the road...they are trying to trade for the star next year....to maximize brunson contract. Randle decision doesn't have to be made next year....he is under contract.

Randle and Brunson can both opt out next summer.

no they are under contract for the 2024-25 season...they can opt out 2025-26 if they want.

[Besart19]

we need Brogdon, DeRozan and Hayward (or Gallinari if he wont be released)... in playoffs you win with a elite halfcourt/mid range game!

Brunson / Brogdon
Di Vincenco / Brogdon
DeRozan / Grimes
Anunoby / Randle
Randle / Hart

in the 4th quarter... you can win any 4th... Brunson should be well rested durin the 1st half... his forte is not running the court up and down... he is killing it when the opp get tired... and you have DeRozan who is elite from mid-range and can create his own shot

[Capn'O]

who is saying they wont trade randle with that other salary to get that star? Randle changed agents not sure he is in there long term plans beyond this season.


randle still makes less than most stars so yes Fournier or another 20ish MM salary will be important to be in that 40ish range.

Knicks clearly have prioritized on keeping Fournier deal for a while now

I agree with Sham. I think Fournier goes away if we don't trade him now.

If we're looking to re-sign iHart, Precious, and OG this offseason that likely adds 30-35 mil to the payroll if we keep Fournier. Once the lux tax is accounted for that's a huge salary commitment caused by a guy who isn't playing.

yeah, they can't just carry that dead weight another season. and they have to pay brunson/randle the summer after. their total salary number is gonna be crazy. they might have to drop some of these role players.

Yeah, the number is gonna be huge. Part of why I keep saying I don't think we're in such a big hurry to trade away our draft picks. We need cheap guys to take up roster space.

[cgf]

Knicks pick and Evan for Bruce Brown just feels like destined to happen

I'm trying to imagine an offense where both Brown and Hart are on the floor at the same time

I'm really struggling to see how that'd work.

is bruce brown that bad of a shooter? i’ve always remembered him as a willing and capable 3 point shooter

Career
34.6% on 4.6 3PA/36 for Hart
33.9% on 2.6 3PA/36 for Brown

2022-2023
37.2% on 2.4 3PA/36 for Hart...51.9% on 2.5 as a knick
35.8% on 4.0 3PA/36 for Brown

[mpharris36]

Basically every source and rumor has the Knicks going in for a big move this summer. It is a good time with Brunson and Randle on relatively bargain deals. Whether they pull it off, I am not sure. But every contract helps, as long as they are not over the 2nd apron. I expect Fournier to be moved per the rumors.

I guess thats my point...everything points to maximizes this coming offseason to land a big piece while Brusnon and Randle make sub 30 MM. So to maximize that you need to have matching salary so you aren't forced to move a player you don't want because you need matching salary.

So moving fournier for an expiring just goes against everything they have been trying to do for a while now. Now if they can turn Fournier contract + a relatively not earth shattering draft capital into helping this year teams get marginally better + also allows us to use that players salary (brown or brogdon type) in a trade. Then I think that makes the most sense.

If you move for a player like Burks you lose that flexibility in the offseason.

[thebuzzardman]

Dot hates Hart more than Jimmit hated RJ

[Deeeez Knicks]

I agree with Sham. I think Fournier goes away if we don't trade him now.

If we're looking to re-sign iHart, Precious, and OG this offseason that likely adds 30-35 mil to the payroll if we keep Fournier. Once the lux tax is accounted for that's a huge salary commitment caused by a guy who isn't playing.

Per Katz they are likely to keep Fournier if they don't trade him.

Based on all the rumors it sounds like they are ok with going over Apron #1 but want to stay under Apron #2. That $18-$22mil contract can fit in there and sounds like what the Knicks are looking for.

The Knicks are still eyeing the upcoming summer for a big-star trade, league sources said. And they’d prefer to deal as little out of today’s rotation as they can to make that happen. Exchanging Fournier for expiring veterans could force them to include at least two of Robinson, Hart and Donte DiVincenzo along with Grimes in a deal this summer. That’s not what they want.

It’s why a buyout of Fournier, if the Knicks don’t trade him by Thursday, is unlikely. If he’s still on the roster past the deadline, picking up his $19 million 2024-25 team option is on the table, according to league sources, even though Fournier rarely ever plays — even when the group is missing nearly half of its rotation.

Fournier would provide the vehicle to bring in someone on the salary the Knicks prefer: eight figures and into $20 million. But based on the way New York has operated, it would be shocking if it dealt Fournier for an upcoming free agent. The Knicks want that new player to be under contract for next season, ensuring that they could include him in a larger trade for a star four or five months from now. Fournier earns $18.8 million this season and has a team option for 2024-25.

For an example of what not to look out for, let’s go back to the Detroit situation.

Dealing Fournier and a couple of second-round picks for Burks and Monté Morris could make some basketball sense for both teams, considering the money changing hands is similar. The Pistons receive future assets and the Knicks bring back a competent, no-nonsense point guard along with a known quantity in Burks. But contractually, it’s a no-no, considering both of those Pistons are on expiring deals.

Part of what I liked so much about my Lonzo + Fournier + POR FRP + WSH FRP <---> Caruso + Shamet + Craig <---> Kuzma + 24 NYK FRP idea was that we could break down Fournier's contract into 1 deal we'd definitely want to keep (Caruso) and another deal that we could hold onto for salary-matching or we could let go to help us avoid the 2nd apron (Shamet).

19M is a lot more work to budget around than 10M if we opted in without a trade that needed that salary already lined up.

It makes sense for the Knicks but doesnt sound like Chi is interested in moving Caruso, and Wash may hold off on moving Kuzma.